So, something is happening HERE!!!!
Raul.
Raul.
Who needs a MM cartridge type when we have MC?
Those of us who have lived in the US for the past 20 years cannot have entirely escaped the Seinfeld show on network TV. It was what we call a sitcom, but a very unconventional one that I enjoyed immensely. In the context of the show, Jerry Seinfeld played Jerry Seinfeld as a struggling young comedian living in NYC. In one famous episode, he and his fictional friend George were asked to come up with a premise for a sitcom by NBC, probably mimicking what may have happened in real life. But the two characters in the context of the show could not come up with a viable idea despite many funny brainstorming sessions. In the end, they met with the NBC execs and proposed to do a show about "nothing". Congrats to us; we have written over 3000 posts about nothing, and we are not done yet. I have enjoyed it immensely, and it has cost me a couple of thousand bucks (= US dollars, also known archaically as greenbacks and simoleons). |
Lewm, "3000 posts about nothing"? Granted, the last few posts have drifted into questions about subwoofers (for which I believe there is a far more appropriate Agon thread already running and in which I believe most of these points are raised and addressed in far more detail!). However, "nothing"? Maybe slightly coloured by disappointment or anger? |
Dgob, Neither disappointed nor angry. (Why on earth would I be angry?) Please re-read it if you don't get it. Trying to say we should not take ourselves or this discourse too seriously. Trying for a bit of humor. I do plead guilty to going OT about subwoofers, but the genesis of that digression was to point out how two experienced audiophiles with superb but very different audio systems could come to different conclusions about the Technics cartridge (or any other cartridge, tonearm, etc), while at the same time both seem to agree that the 100C is the best of the best in most other ways. Downunder, "Gold, Jerry. Pure gold!" I'll reserve further comment until we reach 6000 posts. |
Regards, all: I recieved (from Stereoneedles) an ATN25 stylus, twenty five days to delivery. It was put aside until last night, then installed in a Signet TK9LC to replace a questionable stylus. I was somehow dissatisfied with the performance, not unusual for a stylus not yet broken in. This A.M., I returned to listening to it and determined (gotta love those wiggly VU meters) the left channel was weak. Swapped TT IC's left to right, the problem traveled with the exchange, as it did when the ATN25 was transplanted to an AT22 cartridge. The Signet performed as expected with the stylus from the AT22, several other carts were installed and none demonstrated any imbalance. It seems to me that one of the "whisker" magnets has weakened and unless anyone can suggest another solution, I'll contact Stereoneedles for replacement, this would mean at least two months to have the TK9 running again. Your thoughts as to any other cause will be appreciated. |
Timeltel, that is not good news - keep us informed what Stereoneedles say. Regarding the AT25 stylus I ordered from Stereoneedles. I have had nothing but hassles and 2 months after ordering it has only just been shipped!! - Ordered Sept 10th - supposedly shipped Sept 15th - Oct 19th, asked to confirm shipment as it had not arrived. USPS generally takes 10 - 14 days to be delivered to Sydney. They said they would get right onto it and advise. - After multiple emails over the next 3 weeks I finally got a response that answered my question on Nov 10th - a couple of days ago. From: Jack Stern So, I am still going to have to wait another couple of weeks before I see anything. I really hope I don't get a dud like Timeltel. Moops!!! cheers |
Hello, DU: Called the vendor, after some minutes of evasive discussion the S.N. representative indicated that I might be asked to send the stylus AND cartridge (not going to happen) for their "technician" to test and he would call back--waiting--, I'm not a happy camper. Hand wound toroidal (omega shaped) coils with the Signet, not sure about the AT, don't know of any difference other than the mount/cosmetics. The Signet sounds wonderful with the AT22 stylus. Literature states OFC windings continuous poles to the pins, twenty minutes each to wind by hand and then shielded with Mu metal. I'm likeing it very much at 100K/200pF, arm level VTA. What a dissapointment, first time I've experienced this situation with a weakened magnet, would really appreciate it if someone could suggest another cause to investigate. TK7e on the way, 2.7mV output. Like the TK9, hand wound/assembled, four laminated coils. Recieved two Akai rebranded ATN180s nude Shibata styli for it, from the associated specs I anticipate this mutt will be a pleasurable listen. Trivia: Signet claimed development of the first micro line stylus with the TK10ML. Best of luck with yours and of course, Peace |
Halcro, If Shane had written "Moops" the first time, we could have been further along. What's a "Mook"? I thought it might be another one of those uniquely Australian marsupials. Timeltel, Would it be possible to attempt to restore the magnet by placing just the stylus assembly in a magnetic field, i.e., the same way permanent magnets are made in the first place? Worth a try before you send it back, maybe. There may be some technical info on how to do that, via the internet. I am a DIY guy, so this is the way I think, crazy as it sounds. |
Hi!, Lew. There is such a thing as a "mook", wonderful description (edited) from "Urban Dictionary": "A term coined by Douglas Rushkoff in an episode of PBS's "Frontline" entitled "The Merchants of Cool." Mooks are archetypal young males(teens-early 20s) who act like moronic boneheads." (----) Opposite of Mooks are Midriffs; oxymoronic innocent skanks who are modeled after Britney Spears." From PBS, obviously this is some serious stuf. Back to OT: Thanks for the suggestion. Thinking--thinking--Hey you, wake up!--thinking: Neo. magnets, volts DC?, amps, wire, COIL?, duration, charge. Pos.-neg./pos.-neg., both magnets simultaneously, attention to continuity to avoid reverse polarization/phase. Ampherage-voltage regulated or it'll light up like one of Mr. Edisons' devices. Oops. -----------------Hmmm-POW!/ZZZT, "IT LIVES, IT LIVES!".----------------- Not the first time it's been suggested a little electro-shock therapy would be beneficial? Poor DU, waiting, waiting, patiently waiting, there amongst the marsupials- Peace, |
Oh gentlemen Halcro can tell you, All the way in Aussieland, we have kangaroos and koala's everywhere - walking down the street, on our buses hitching for rides. If it was in USA, you guys would pull out you guns and blow them to Smithereens. Slightly different culture down here boys :-) then again, you guys have an world series and the world is not invited and your football players wear helmets. peace |
Timeltel, The AT 140lc/ Signet 3ea combo is very good.I know now why you asked question about favorite stylus types.The high frequencies are detailed but very smooth.It seems to pick up the spacial cues of recording extremely well. Did anyone else put this together? I would be interested in your opinions. Glad to hear you didn't " Halcro" your defective stylus. Danny |
The Cardas test LP has a band or two that are supposed to demagnetize an MC cartridge. I wonder whether that might help or hurt your stylus assembly, if indeed your hypothesis is correct. (Although you might think it would be bad for an MM cartridge, I have not seen any caveat against playing the band with an MM.) Agree that messing around with magnetizing can be hazardous, but mostly to your new stylus assembly, which might therefore make it un-returnable to the vendor. If they will exchange it, you probably should take the easy way out and do that. George and Bubble-boy were playing Trivial Pursuit. The argument was over whether the answer card read "Moops" or "Moors". But then again, we always have Shun Mook. |
Regards, Acman3- Hi, Danny. The TK5/7ea are progressively more refined and exceedingly articulate with the 155LC stylus but lack the vivacity/immediacy of the somewhat enthusiastic TK3/140LC. Woodwings, voice and strings are presented graciously, the combination can boogie, too. Distant sounding it isn't. I suspect a thoughtfully damped mid-low resonance in the ATN140's cantilever is responsible, the four coil engine contributes too. I too hear the hf's as crisply extended and without any sense of glare or glassiness, after 20 hrs soundstage is 3rd row center and it just keeps getting better. What are your thoughts on imaging? Stylus profiles are rarely discussed here and although I've developed certain opinions, each time I visit this thread I hope to learn something from the very accute audiophiles who sometimes pause here long enough to post. Anyway, It's good to hear you enjoy the Signet/140LC. I still havn't located a MR 5.0. Wasn't yours the 5.0me, how do they compare? DU- isn't it pronounced futbool down there where the thick air settles and addles the head? World class Aussie baseball my foot, er, fut. Pax, |
Regards, Lew(m): I caught your post just before retireing, thanks for the additional consideration. I've sent a second (less polite) email to stereoneedles but have little expectation of redress. Caveat Emptor is still in a holding pattern, Halcro must be patient for a while more. I havn't Googled it yet. To establish a magnetic force, do you think a straight polar application of DC instead of introducing current through a coil would be best? I'm thinking more in terms of a battery charger at low ampherage, not a welding apparatus. Not your stylus, here's an opportunity to experiment vicariously, we might make a contribution to audiophilia or I can fumble around enough to determine "what remains must be true". Next, we'll start improving your Acutex. Peace, |
I have never done anything like this, save to observe (as a child) that after you mess around with paper clips and a magnet, the paper clips become weakly magnetic themselves. So my experience is comparable to that of a cave man with fire. On the internet, they speak of very powerful magnets used to generate new magnets, so the first thing you need to do, if you are really going to try it, is to find a way to fasten down the stylus assembly so it does not go flying into or away from the magnet and thereby crush itself. One thing you might check, I may have read somewhere that a tape head demagnetizer can also be used to magnetize. A guy like Mark Kelly would know whether this is a foolish idea or a real possibility. But I thought you wrote earlier that Stereoneedles was going to make the exchange with no problems. You could mention to them that you are a member of this gaggle of MM enthusiasts who probably give them a lot of business and that your dissatisfaction could cost them in the long run. |
Hey Halcro, Now that you've listened to a number of other MM/MI cartridges, what is your current opinion/standing on the Garrott P77? Asking because I've had some system changes and I'm now using the inexpensive ARC SP16 tube preamp (integrated tube phono stage).....and I'm really liking the music produced by my vintage Garrott P77. I'm actually wondering if my next step might be to try the updated Garrott Optim FGS. There's not a great deal of feedback in the forums on this cart, but what I've read - including the Stereo Times Garrott FGS review - seems to be very positive. |
Regards, Downunder: You wrote: "keep us informed what Stereoneedles say". Recieved a call to inform me that they were aware of my concern and would take the necessary measures to arrange for return of the AT25 stylus they sent for "testing". In consideration of the vendor, no further comments until a conclusion is reached except; hope yours arrives soon and in good order. Peace, |
Hi Tobes, Good question..........one I was going to address on this Forum in a few weeks. However, I have been listening day and night to so many cartridges on so many arms on two tables that I feel comfortable about putting at least the Garrott P77 in some perspective. With so many top class MM cartridges, the P77 unfortunately has dropped quite considerably in relative brilliance. Top of the list undoubtedly is the Technics EPC-100Mk3. Certainly the most 'perfect' cartridge this little black duck has ever heard. Next would be the Audio Technica AT-155LC followed by the Empire 4000D/III and the Empire 1000ZE/X. Next would come the Dynavector XV1s mounted in the FR-64s or even better, the FR-66s. Until you hear this cartridge in those arms, you have not really heard the XV1s. Below these come the disappointing (relatively) Audio Technica AT 20SS Special Edition, then the ZYX Universe and Garrott P77. Below these would be the Ortofon M20FL and the Sonus Blue but really the air is so refined at the top of this list that I've spent little time actually listening to these? I hope this helps you for the time being? Good luck. |
Thanks for the quick run-down Halcro. I'll have to check on the availability of those other MM's you mention - that's a problem with a lot of MM/MI cartridges mentioned in this thread. Seems as soon as they are 're-discovered' they become 'unobtainium'. The Optim FGS is moderately expensive (for an MM) so that gives me pause, but it is supposed to perform at a higher level than the P77.....so still an option I may explore. I doubt it will be less than excellent. Cheers, Tobes |
Hi Tobes and Headsnappin, The great cartridges are out there and it just takes some patience and constant monitoring on Ebay......but I know what you mean. Don't become discouraged because I've always been able to find what I wanted......for instance after discovering just how good the AT-155LC is I looked for another on Ebay and found someone selling the body (with an after-market stylus), and another seller with a NOS original replacement 155LC stylus. Voilà........I now have 2 complete AT-155LC cartridges. Tobes, I strongly recommend that you postpone the Garrott purchase and hunt down one of the named 'Gods'. The differences are simply astounding. Good luck again. |
Yeah, Halcro I'll probably do that. I'm finding the P77 very satisfying at the moment (I don't think I gave it enough time to 'loosen up' last time I tried it) - and not feeling any pressing need to find a replacement. I know you found the P77 to be much better in the Copperhead, but I'm getting fine results in the Phantom...ignorance may be bliss. In theory the medium compliance Garrott should suit the Phantom well (and this is demonstrated in practice I think)- but I'm wondering if many of the other high recommendations will be such a good match? Quite a few seem to have very high compliance ratings and should really be matched with a low mass arm. I'm not really that interested in running a multiple arm setup - especially since I have a second Phantom armwand on its way. Like the Garrott, the Nagoaka MP50/500 carts (8.5 x 10-6 cm/dyne @ 100 Hz) seem to have more suitable compliance for a medium mass arm - vs say, the Audio Technica AT155 (16 x 10-6cm/Dyne @100Hz). Of course both figures will be considerably higher at the more usually specified 10Hz. The tracking force range for the AT tells me its a pretty high compliance design. Did you try it in your Phantom? What cartridge would you recommend specifically for the Graham Phantom? I think that Raul has made the point previously that tonearm matching is one of the keys to getting stellar results with these carts. |
Dear Tobes, Unfortunately, out of every arm I've tried (7), the Phantom is the most unhappy match for every high compliance MM I've used? If you think the P77 sounds ok in it, wait till you hear it in a better matched arm? You will simply not recognize it. I don't really know how to overcome your predicament other than by buying another arm? The Grace 940G was recommended by Raul as a good match for MMs and I've found this to be correct. There is one for sale on Ebay at the moment for $450 which certainly won't break any banks, otherwise the Micro Seiki MA505s is a top quality arm with on-the-fly EVERYTHING..........and also sounds superb on MM cartridges. With the Phantom, I'd strongly suggest sticking to low compliance LOMC only. Sorry and again, good luck. |
Thanks again for your thoughts Halcro. Maybe I'll look around for a suitable low mass arm, but the Garrott is not really high compliance. At 18 x 10-6cm/dyne it is very close to the compliance of my Ortofon Jubilee (16µm/mN)- it should work best in this type of arm. The Ortofon 2M black is another medium compliance MM (22µm/mN) which I may investigate. It sells for around half the cost of the Garrott FGS and Fremer found it to work very well in his Phantom (on the Caliburn). I guess the Grados and Soundsmith MI cartridges might be other options. Cheers, Tobes |
Hello Timeltel, Took off the Signet3a/AT 140lc to listen to the Signet MR 5.0me. I listened all week to this cartridge and I have to say it leans more towards the detail category but is still musical. At first I thought it had a little to much edge to it but it warmed up a little during week.I really do like it. Pinpoint imaging,slightly tilted towards highs. A nice change of pace cartridge although I got no listener fatigue and if I hadn't heard better I could live with it. Tried the AT 140lc on it but did not change sound like on Signet 3a. AT 155 arrived today. Will see what it sounds like tomorrow. Thanks, Danny |
Regards, Acman3, Hxt1: Hi, Danny. I've spotted a MR5.0 (maximim resolution) cartridge without a stylus, with the several NOS styli I have for it, it seems I need the cart, too. It sounds like you're becoming acclimated to the Signets, careful, they're addictive. Several have commented on the AT155LC (Halcro, Weseixas), the berillium cantilever/line contact 155 stylus installed on the OFC hand wound/four laminated coil Signet is it's slightly warmer counterpart, the AT155LC has a very high output inductance, 3600, the Signet at 550 IIRC. You should enjoy yours, hopefully immensely. I'm not quite ready to do an evaluation similar to bold Halcro's but with nearly fourty cartridges it's about time to start thinning the herd and any ranking will then be self evident. The entertaining TK3ea/140LC continues to get a lot of playing time: Accurate and very easy on the ears, it's a keeper. For two weeks now, in route from Canada (takes forever) is a TKeSU, 2.7mV output. Fitted with the patiently waiting Super Shibata RS180 stylus, from the specs I'm anticipating it will join the Signet TK5ea/155LC at the top of my pile of cartridges. Post your impressions when your 155 is broken in? Hxt1, I've not heard the AT8008. I believe it was provided with a line contact stylus and is rumored to be a sleeper. Hopefully someone else here can provide better information. Peace, |
Regards, Waynefia: Trading a tapered alu. cantilever for berillium? If you prefer resolution to harmonics you'll find it an upgrade. I enjoy either "flavor" and Danny (Ackman3) isn't saying. I find the soundstage with the 155lc is wall to wall, the 140lc is more centered. Mass and tip speed considered, I hear neither as excessively analytical or "lazy". Useing a Signet TK3 or 5ea engine, for relaxed listening, the Tk3/140lc, for critical, the Tk5/155lc. Go for it (you can't hurt anything) & let us know. Peace, |
Dear Lewm, Downunder, Pryso, Timeltel Nandric: I almost always give an answer to any post that has a reference of something I posted. I would like to give answers to those posts about Subwoofers ( that Lewm begin. ) for any one of you can have my " take " on the subject and why Downunder is " navegating " in other different " world " about bass quality performance. In one of my posts about I posted a link but due to your answers I think that some of you don't read it carefully, here it is again " live ": ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Why it is important the use of subs on our home stereo audio systems ? Well, for we can hear what is on the recording ( analog / digital / any ) we need a series of links ( audio items ) to build the whole chain for the music/sound reproduction. All the links on the system chain are important and all of them have their particular distortions that put the " colors " to our " audio pictures ". In this audio chain, in the analog case , the most imperfect links are at the front end: phono cartridges and the speakers. Here is where we have a lot of distortions ( of any kind ) because these audio music " transducers " are truly an imperfect ones against electronics ( for example ). So, for me, these are the " tweak " links on the audio chain. In this forum all of us already learn how to improve the cartridge link for a better music/sound reproduction ( less distortions ), but not many of us take care about the speakers distortions, other than the room interaction, that really " color " the final sound that we hear. Why we take care about: VTF, VTA/SRA, Overhang, resonance tonearm/cartridge, SUT or not SUT, unipivot, air bearing, cables, tubes or not tubes, SS, DAC's, CD transports, and the like when all what we do can be corrupted at the end of the audio chain with full of speakers/room distortions. Where the subs can help us ? : Intermodulation Distortions: Almost any three ways speaker ( all two ways/one way ) has it's crossover frecuency ( low driver ) between 150Hz and 450Hz. I can assume that any of ours speakers system goes down flat ( at least ) between 60Hz to 20Hz. What does that means ?, well that a single driver has to reproduce frecuencies/harmonics from 20Hz/60Hz to 150Hz/450Hz. With that kind of frecuency range here exist a great intermodulation distortions that put it's " color " on the sound reproduction. You have to imagine that that single woofer/driver has to reproduce, at the same " time ", a 30Hz frecuency along a 350Hz frecuency: here is where exist that IM that gives heavy distortions in what we hear ( there is no perfect driver: moving coil, electrostatic, ribbon, etc.. The speaker designers has to choose the best " trade offs ", but the distortions are there. ): less clarity, less resolution, less precision, less natural balance, less pitch, les, less, less......., and this is what we are really hearing: LESS MUSIC. If you read any manufacturer specifications on their speakers they never " write " the value of the IM or harmonic distortions, they tell us the frecuency range and how is flat on that range but never " talk " about distortions. I think that you know that when we have a speaker frecuency specifications, say: 28Hz to 22kHz +,- 3db, that is a very nice spec, that speaker low driver don't stop at 28hZ it's goes a few hertz below that frecuency with heavy harmonic distortion that increase the IM distortion of the sound reproduction of that driver and these additional distortions have a severe degradation in the reproduction of the MUSIC. What happen when that low driver is free from those frecuencies ? ( main speakers: monitors or full range, it does not matters. My main speakers are flat to 22Hz and only 5db +.- at 18Hz and I have benefits with the seamless subwoofers integration to my system ), below 80Hz ( this is the crossover frecuency that I find the best point to start to blend a subwoofer. ): SUDDENLY the " lights are on ", your music/audio " life " its born: the mid bass is clean, the midrange is clean, the highs are clean: high resolution every where ( the distortions are almost gone ), and now you can really hear for the first time the MUSIC through your home stereo audio system: what a pleasure!!!!!. This is truly a discovery for all of us that cares about MUSIC. We really discovery what kind ( quality/quantity ) of audio system we really have ( now we can do any evaluation of any audio item, not before. ) and where to work for a future improvements. Now that we already settle in the subwoofers ( self powered ) with our main speakers ( yes, it is a hard work to do. We need at least: very good ears, love for music, experience with live music, patience, time and good muscles. We have to work with: location of subwoofers and the main speakers too, phase, crossover frecuency, volume/gain. We need two subwoofers not one and this issue is critical. TIP: avoid the common asumption that the crossover point should be at the low frecuency flat response of the main speakers, example: the speakers are flat at 40Hz, then you choose 40Hz for the frecuency crossover between the subs and the speakers, this is a great mistake: remember that we use subwoofers not only for a better and extended low bass but for a better midrange/midbass too. So, the frecuency crossover will be over that 40Hz: not at 40Hz or below 40Hz. ), we have others advantages: - better quality low bass ( you can have at least one more octave ) and mid bass ( quantity? : you choose it: volume/gain ) ). Now we can heard the " foundation " of the MUSIC ( and its harmonics ) and this single issue is stunning for the pleasure to hear any kind of music. Now, we are nearest to the " real MUSIC ", nothing less. The first time you can hear the subwoofers right blended on your stereo home audio system: YOU NEVER COULD LIVE WITH OUT THEM AGAIN, ANY ONE CAN. - An improvement in the soundstage reproduction in all parameters: deep, front/side location, wide of the stage, etc... - the main speakers amplifiers works best ( less distortion, more headroom, less chance of clipping, less amplifier stress, etc...) with out to handle the frecuencies range that now are handle by the dedicated subwoofers amplifiers. This is important for an SS amplifier but for the tubes ones is a must. - Now the low bass frecuencies are handle for a dedicated driver that was build with specifics characteristics for to work in that frecuency range and this low bass driver is matched with an amplifier ( self powered subwoofers ) that was build with specifications that mates excatly what the low bass drivers needs about: frecuency response, output impedance, damping, power, etc..... You can't ask for more!!! - Not only the IM distortion goes down but the harmonic distortion of the low driver of your main speakers goes down too. - Usually the location of the speakers in our room ( with out subs ) is a " compromise " ( trade off ) between the best performance at the bass against the best performance at the mid/high frecuencies ( only in a few cases the location is with out any " trade offs ". ), when we integrated the seamless subs in our audio system we can have the best of both " worlds " and you will be in " heaven ", now we can put the main speakers in the best room location and the low bass drivers ( separate subs ) in its best location too!!! Some people use subs with their full range speakers (FRS ) as a bass reinforcement, this IMHO is a misunderstood that can do more harm that any good to improve the system quality performance: maybe is not very clear about the seamless integration in a true stereo fashion of powered subwoofers with " full range " speakers like Dynaudio Evidence/Temptations, Dali Megaline, Wilson Maxx3/Alexandria, etc, etc,... We can think that with a FRS the integration of two powered subwoofers can't do any help to improve the quality sound reproduction. I can tell you that even with FRS the integration of subs can help a lot, let me to give my opinion about:: - That elusive full octave in the low bass is a headache for any one, especially for the loudspeaker manufacturers: they have to choose very carefully the right trade-offs about. In the other side, we the FRS customers have to choose the right amplification device for really " take-out " and " live " that marvelous low bass reproduction through those passive FRS: a very hard task, it does not matters the speaker design and the amplifier design. - There is no single external / stand alone amplifier that can work or do a better job than a low bass dedicated amplifier like the one that comes with a powered subwoofer: think that this dedicated bass amplifier was designed/tailored to match every single woofer parameter: impedance, frecuency response range, damping, power, distortion, etc, etc,... - It is not only this dedicated amplifier what makes this subwoofer approach/technology ideal to handle the low bass octaves. The driver/woofer is designed/tailored too for that specific low frecuency range. There is no passive FRS, at any price with any amplifier, that could beat a self powered subwoofers in that frecuency range. When you have and hear the subs on your system you never can live again with out those subwoofers. Here we have to remember other important issue: the best subwoofers are SERVO CONTROLLED, this characteristic give to the subwoofer a heavy advantage over a passive FRS about the low distortion that a well designed subwoofer had against a higher distortions on any passive FRS. The Velodyne unique design permit that woofer driver control through that the signal is " measured/tested " 10,000 each second to control the woofers " behavior ", this permit that Velodyne sub's has an impressive ( lower than ) 0.5% on THD where other sub's like the JL Audio ( new " toy " in the block ) has 6%!. This sole spec made a difference in quality performance for the better in the Velodyne's that btw many people thinks are " mid-fi " and this kind of thinking is IMHO a misunderstood or low knowledge on the whole subject. Btw, the Velodyne's are sealed design that in my experience performs with better quality than " ported " sub designs. If is true that sub's place is very important issue IMHO in a two speaker system ( for music listening. ) the choice of subwoofers is critical and important too. With HT almost any sub's can works but in a two speaker system IMHO we have to look for the best quality performance in that foundation music frequency range and its main contribution to the overall system sound so we have to take care on our each one sub's choice. In any case, true advantages on seamless integration of two powered subs in true stereo fashion: - lowest speaker system Harmonic Distortion and IMD. - better low bass quality. - deep/and lower bass frequency response. - right low bass system/room quantity. - better system mid bass, mid range, hf, soundstage, etc quality performance. - higher system SPL/headroom with lower overall distortions. - better amplifier main speakers performance. - better main/satellite speakers quality performance too. - better speaker system room integration. - better, better, better, etc, etc. this is what I learn about: a full and better home audio system quality performance !!!!!!! +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ This is something additional that I posted in other forum and just to confirm the MAIN TARGET on the subs subject: ++++++ " Dear Lee: The main target of adding a pair of self powered subwoofers in true stereo fashion through my approach ( yes Frantz I know and I posted that way that you are an enthusiactic audiophile on the subwoofers approach you have. ) is to improve the quality performance level of the main speakers and as a side advantages achieve: better low bass quality performance level, lowest/deeper low bass response, more accurate low bass response, better main speaker room integration with better quality response, lowest speaker system THD and IMD, better low bass room integration with better and coherent whole quality performance along the main speakers, etc, etc. I think that with this approach exist only " better's " and almost no trade-offs other that that additional high-pass filter for the main speakers. In my system there is almost no that trade-off because I made/make the crossover/high-pass filter inside my Levinson's adding nothing!! Both signals that goes to the speaker amplifiers and to the subs is the same non-touched/untouched one. IMHO lowering distortions ( any kind ) in a home audio system always improve the quality level performance of that system and with my subs approach you made exactly that. " +++++ Lewm, I alreadu heard Soundlabs with subs and these " main speakers " receive a benefit with the subs integration. You don't and can't even imagine what you are loosing with out those " evil " subs: the differences are outstanding for say the least. Please don't argue till you try it. Btw, Lewm please read this article about slow/fast subs subject ( if you read my subwoofer thread you could find almost anything any one needs to know about subs and not because I posted but because there are several people contribution to understand the subject. ): http://www.soundstage.com/maxdb/maxdb061999.htm Downunder as good the JL or Rel subs IMHO and if you understand my whole subs approach IMHO the Velodyne's HGS series are the best ( to my know. ) subs for a two channel home audio system like the one we have, please read this ( that I posted somewhere. ) about: +++++++ " Second step with my approach is two select the right subwoofer, not all subwoofers are the same and the price or " good looking " factor means nothing about its true quality performance level. Remember that trying to lowr the IMD is on favor of Excellence performance level so you need the best subwoofer choice for a two channel home audio system. Between other things try to select ( every thing the same. ) the subwoofers with the lowest THD, ask about to the retailers/manufacturers. One of the reasons I choose Velodyne is because was the one I found out with the lowest THD: 0.5% in the HGS Velodyne series thank's ( between other things ) that Velodyne sense more that 10K times each second the woofer behavior and make as need it the corrections on real time. The " pretty face " JL in the same conditions has 6% on THD , Wilson 5% and over 10% at 20 hz and Revel B15 around 20%: way difference that you can hear. Like in almost any audio subject: knowledge, better yet, quality knowledge level and your skills to use it is the " name of the game ". " ++++++++ Lewm, NO Downunder and me are not hearing the same because his system can't do it at the same quality level performance than mine. No arrogance here only facts. Lewm, all what you need to know about my ADS main speaker are in my virtual system where you take information that you posted here and where I found out a mistake: I don't own one 18-inch Velodyne subwoofer ( as you said it ) but two 15-inch subwoofers. I hope I gived to each one of you an answer and please don't take as those answers are the " right and only ones " because what I posted here are only my experiences on the whole subject. Nandric, thank you for your understanding.. Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Dear Raul, In principle, I do not argue with your opinion on the need or the usefulness of a subwoofer. My problem is that in practice, I have never heard an electronic crossover that did not add objectionable colorations right up into the midrange and above, and I have never heard a built-in subwoofer amplifer that delivered bass response that sounded "real". The amps or the subwoofer usually sound hi-fi-ish at best or muffled and synthetic at worst. So I have heretofore chosen to do without. But I have an open mind. As regards your opinion of the superiority of the Velodynes, I respect that, but as far as I know opinions widely differ as to how those stack up against other candidates. In fact, there are some who think that the HGS are not even the best sounding among the Velodyne choices. I was always told that the DD series was best, but I have no worthwhile opinion. |
Dear Raul Why did you buy full range speakers if you don't use the bass drivers. You might as well bought a pair of monitors like Dgob. Now - What subs and configuration would you buy if you were myself?. nothing changes except the subs. There is no such product in the velodyne international product range as the HGS series. Would you run the speakers full range and use the high pass filter, or use the low pass filter?. If low pass, please advise what transparent electronic crossover would you recommend. this will be enlightening :-) |
DU, I think the HGS series, owned by Raul, has been discontinued. If you visit the Velodyne website, as I did last night, it is no longer mentioned. The DD series (15- and 18-inch versions) are still listed. The DDs are also servo controlled, so I don't know how they differ from the HGS series, but I thought that the DDs were/are more expensive (= better?). Perhaps R will enlighten us. Your question to Raul re using full-range spkrs with such a massive woofer complement in his maine spkrs (2 X 14-inch woofers per side), also went thru my mind. I suspect Raul would say those are necessary to fill in the 80-Hz and above frequencies perhaps better than can be done by a 2-way monitor. But as you suggest, there are some fabulous 2-way spkrs out there, if you are going to use a subwoof. I went through a period where I read a lot about subwoofers on the AV Forum. I think those guys preferred the DD to the HGS, but they have different fish to fry compared to pure audiophiles. I bought a 15-inch Revel subwoof for my minimalist home theater. It's OK, I guess. I don't think much about it. |
Regards, Headsnappin: More information than you asked for but there may be some considerations others would find interesting so please pardon this post's length. First question, will the 7ea work- the ea series require the rectangular alignment post, the bottom of the cartridge body is angled, not flat like the previous "e" series which accept the round post (AT14-20 styli are an exact fit). The 140-155lc styli fit all "ea" bodys, as will the extermely detailed 152ml nude/berillium stylus assembly. Second question, are they the same- dimensionally, yes. Performance- the TK1ea and the 3 are production models, the 1 has a plastic mount and is disturbingly microphonic, the 3's mount is alu. and is well isolated from airborne and mech. related disruption. OFC windings, channel bal. is 1.5 & 1.0 respectively. 5.0mV output for all "ea" carts. Starting with the 5, windings are LC-OFC, continuous from the laminated four coil pole pieces to the pins out, progressively more refined through the 7ea. Mfr. specs for the 7ea/7LCa respectively (this is the part you'll be interested in): Response: 5-30k/5-35k. Balance: 0.75/0.5. Recco. cap, 1-100, both. Imped. @ 1kHZ, 900 Ohm., both. Inductance, 550, both. D. C. res, 800 Ohm, both. Sep. at 10kHz: 22 min/23 min. At 1kHz, 33, both. The 3 and 5ea approach the quality of the 7 progressively, the 1ea is definately an entry-level cartridge (comp. to AT120e) and I'd suggest avoidance for those with high end performance expectations. The line contact stylus has good groove wall contact of 4.5 x 70um, a good 0.2 x 0.7 elliptical would be 3.5 x 18um, a micro-linear at 2.5 x 75um, placing percieved character of the line contact variety nicely between the "muscular" sound of an elliptical of good quality and the low-level detail retrieval qualities of the "micro" types. Some Shibata (can be 50-75um major radius), Paratrace and Ortofon "replicant" styli have even greater major radius engagement of 80 to 90um, the smaller the minor radius the better it reads hf's. The given figures are from AT data and other sources, they are not universal. The styli response characteristics are "IMO". For another opinion of a TK3ea/140lc mutt: http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=334298 Peace, |
Raul, since we continue to discuss subwoofers (this is your thread so you can take it any place you please), I must say I agree with your points. In fact, it brings one experience to mind. Many years ago I was considering subwoofers and visited a very reputable dealer for a demo. Interestingly he played a violin recording over a pair of Spendor BC-1, with and without the sub system. The difference in upper bass and mid-range clarity (I'm defining as 80 Hz and above) was obvious when the subs were activated. This seemed counter-intuitive to not play an organ recording or other "deep bass" demo, but he explained that a major benefit in adding a sub was to relieve both the woofer and amp from signals below the crossover point. This is one reason why I cannot understand the popularity of subs like the REL designs, but again that is a personal choice. So my post was not to deny the benefits of adding appropriate subs, but to imply this is less critical for most music reproduction, i.e. above 40 Hz, than other basic system considerations. My understanding is that harmonics occur above the basic tone, not below it. So an open E string on a bass at 42 Hz will have overtones at 84, 168, etc., but not at 21Hz. |
Lew It is well known that ESL's are supposed to be the best speaker for transparency, life and musicality vs another other design in the all important mids and upper frequencies - bass limitations maybe. I for one woulkd luv to hear a pair of Soundlabs done properly over any other speaker design. Its no wonder if you are getting great sound and enough bass for your preferences, why you do not want to add a subwoofer / active crossover etc to potentially muddy the waters. So, I am sure Raul can advise you on how to get perfect bass instegration into you wonderful Soundlab's using currently available subs etc. I look forward to it :-) cheers |
Dear Lewm:About other opinion on Velodyne quality performance level inside its different lines and against other subs I really respect those opinions but IMHO reflect only unknowledge on the subject. First inside Velodyne series: as you stated the DD series is the latest one against the HGS ( the one I own. ) series that now that is out of production. Several differences in between, first in the DD series the signal goes on digital domain where in the HGS series is " analog " with no need to additional DAC's and many other stages where in the DD series pass the audio signal: less here means more more quality and less audio signal degradation in the HGS series. Second and no less important the woofers on the DD series are made from Kevlar where in my HGS ones are made from paper/pulp, this is a critical difference. I already experienced ( three days ago ) the DD-18 and IMHO my HGS-15 has a better quality performance level. Through my experiences ( many a lot ones. ) I always prefer the bass ( low bass ) coming from paper woofers than from other woofer build materials: no contest IMHO. I can say with out single doubt that thye HGS are better than the DD series in a two channel home audio system ( I can't say it in a HTS. ) Against other subs out there ( I heard some but not all. ) the Velodyne has several differences/advantages, first is made for a manufacturer that only design and build subwooferes from the last 20+ years: they know everything you have to know ( and what you don't ) to design the right subwoofer, it has the lowest commercial home audio THD I know thank's that in the design the audio signal in the woofers are sensed/controled and corrected over 10K times each second ( 16K in the DD-18 ) for a near perfect woofer behavior: this sole subject makes a paramount difference especially when we are trying to achieve top top quality performance level on the sub's frequency range. In the other side that you never heard a good subwoofer set up does not means that it does not exist because there are many home audio system with sub's with the right set up in a two channel alternative. The sub subject is perhaps the most non-understanding audio subject because our each one low knowledge and low experiences with. Certainly it is not a plug and play audio product. I'm where I'm ( stellar performance. ) after several months to fine tunning the sub's and understandingthe overall set up parameters/factors that has influence in the subs performance level and in the sub's/main speaker/room relationship perfromance level. I taked almost a year to say: is done, not easy. Is so critical the sub's set whole set up integration that if these " babies " are not with the precise set up then not only does not help to improve the audio system performance level but easily could degrade it but when everything is on target then there is no return: just amazing! Regards and enjoy thye music, Raul. |
Hello All, Just installed the 155lc on the Signet 3ea body so can't make any recommendations at this point. Sound stage does seem bigger. I would like to hear the ATML 170 and 180 to compare since Raul thinks so highly of them. Timeltel, Both the 3ea with the 140lc/155lc are better than the Signet MR 5.0 me. Let me know what you think if you get one? I will try the 155lc on the Signet MR 5.0 when it is broken in. Does the 140lc fit the Max. Resolution series? Waynefia, What does the pure blood Audio Technica 140lc sound like? Let us know how the 155lc changes the sound. Headsnappin, Let us know what you think about the Signet 7ea/ 140lc and 155lc combo Timeltel discovered if you get them. Thanks, Danny |
Dear Halcro, To your post of 11-16 regarding Sonus Blue Gold, what loading did you use? This very high-compliance cartridge has been an interesting experiment. Lots of potential but a challenge to set up correctly-- requiring loading of 120-150K to organize the presentation and tame tracking problems on transients such as aggressive soprano sax on track 3 "The Ghosts Within" of Robert Wyatt's extraordinatry new release "for the ghosts within'". Check it out. |
Dear Raul, I have no basis to critique subwoofers, so I take your word for the goodness of the HGS. Now that you tell me that the DD series take the signal in the digital domain, I would tend to agree that this is more of a home theater approach than a perfectionist audio one. And I do agree that paper-based woofers are thought these days to be most musical. I apologize to anyone else for pursuing this OT topic. |