Dear Raul, Thanks for sharing the info on the Empire 4000d/111. I just bought one for $350. as you said. I think you're right that these opportunities will disappear before long and I appreciate the info that you pass along here. Thanks, -bird |
Dear Lewm: One factor that I think is very important with HC cartridges is the pivot bearing friction. If this is true normally the unipivot tonearm design has lower bearing friction that other pivot tonearm designs.
My Grace 940 and Satin tonearms are unipivot and works very good with MM/MI's but I can say almost the same with other non unipivot designs.
There is something that's " worring " me on the whole subject: due to so many years that these vintage cartridges were build how can be sure that still are HC ones or maybe " more " HC? How the aged affect or affected that compliance factor?
I say this because the AT 1503 tonearm is a medium to high mass tonearm design and I even use headshells on the 12 grs figure and with all that " mass " almost all my cartridges that I test it there performs fine. Even with all the tonearm reserach that I already made it in our self tonearm design I don't have precise answers on the whole subject, especialy the: why's
I know that you are more technical oriented that other persons ( I believe in science too. ) and you want to have clear answers that IMHO today no one that I know has it.
Lewm, it is not only the cartridge compliance what is related but: stylus shape, VTF, cantilever size/build material, etc, etc. All these parameters and some other ones ( even recorded LP velocity or inner/outer tracking grooves. )have influence on how good a cartridge handle tonearm " mass ".
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
You make an excellent and valid point, IMO. After 30 years, we don't know what we are working with in terms of compliance. John Ellison, over on Vinyl Asylum, developed a very easy way to determine the resonant frequency, if one knows how to hook up the output of the turntable or the preamp to a computer screen with a time vs frequency amplitude display. Working backwards from the actual resonant frequency and knowing the tonearm effective mass, one could determine whether the compliance has changed over time or not. However, the fact that many of these cartridges have no problem with relatively high mass arms does suggest that compliance may have changed. What about your cartridges that have been lately rebuilt by van den Hul? Does vdH give you any data on the expected compliance after their rebuilds?
I was interested on the other thread to note that you do not seem enchanted with the Allnic phono stage, as many others are. Have you heard one? I am curious. |
Right now I have a VMS20E MKII on my SME 3009 Series II IMP w/fixed headshell. This arm I believe has a mass of about 6 or 6.5. It would seem this SME not to be popular with many, but I am sticking with it for now. Most of the carts discussed here are a good match for this arm.
What about some other MM such as the OM 40 super that is not quite as old as some of the carts. discussed here. Are there any others that are not current, but another group not as old as some discussed ? What was made in the last 15 years or so that is worthy.
Lastly, for those also wanting a good MM, but not necessarily wanting vintage or an alternative to vintage, that is currently being made, worthy of looking at, that would also work with a lower mass arm like mine above.
I also have a new Sumiko MMT laying around unused, but that takes the arm all the way the other side of the mass spectrum. I do undertsand that we are saying that the old resonance charts may not tell everything, but for some of us looking for a good result that cannot experiment at the level some do, still need to have something as a guideline. |
Wayne, I would have thought that the SME 3009 had a much higher effective mass than 6 or 6.5 gm, given the S-shaped arm tube and the fact that the arm tube is made of metal. Can you confirm that number? If it is correct, I might consider buying one. The SME III does have a very low mass, and I have one friend who is happy using it with a Pickering MM cartridge. Sounds excellent to me, too. But he likes one of his other inexpensive tonearms even better. The cool thing about this is that the megabuck tonearms are generally on the mid to heavy side, so one need not pine for them when using these cartridges. Raul uses a few tonearms that are not very expensive at all, like the Acos Lustre and those Audio Technica ones he mentioned. The ADC and Black Widow carbon fiber tonearms, like the Sumiko, are "dirt" cheap (as long as you don't use a professional landscaper). |
Lew, the 3009 series II improved with fixed headshell is 6.5gm. The 3009 S2 series II improved with removable headshell is 9.5gm. The normal complaint with these ars is that the head headshell will ring. The detachable one may be better so you could use differant material and weighted headshells to accomidate the cart you would use at the time. I'm pretty sure the armtubes are aluminum. I have used the 6.5gm one with a grace F9 with good results and did't notice any ringing in the headshell so the ringing has not been my experience.
Currently using the SME III with the F9 which is even lighter than those two. The sme III comes with differant options of weights so medium carts can be used two. I have not experienced this but one fault I have read is that the headshell on the sme III is samll so something like a grado may not fit. The F9 is just fine.
Brad |
Dear Lewm: I never ask to VdH but now that you mentioned I will do with my next cartridges.
Yes, I heard it along two different cartridges including Allnic one. Even I posted about in other thread a time ago.
regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Just wanted to give a big Thank You to Raul and the couple handfull of regular contributers throughout this thread.
Did frequent visits to this thread for a while but was always overwhelded by it size. This past Monday and Tuesday brokedown and gave the whole thread a read while making notes along the way. Problem is I am going to need another ebay account just for saved searches now, just kidding.
Don't have much to contribute right now since only have two MM/MI cartridges. Currently using a F9L cartridge with F9E stylus. I have a nos ADC XLM MKII which hasn't showed much interest here but look forward to see how it performs against the F9 in the near future. Will probably purchase a Ortofon M20FL while they are still around.
Brad |
Dear Timeltel: Which are the main differences between the LPM 320 and 315?, thank you in advance.
Btw, I nerver heard/hear the ZLM, only the Astrion.
regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Dear Birdliver: I think you already know me, every time I see a good cartridge opportunity I share here through a post.
I try that any information I have not stay only with me. Some times maybe I forgot on something important information to share but if this happen was not on deliberate way.
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Raul - I have purchased a Consonance Opera Droplet turntable and stand (175 pounds). Plus a Moerch DP-6 tonearm. I'm getting back in the game and am interested in Moving Iron carts. I'm most familiar with the Soundsmith carts. I'm a big jazz fan (90%), the rest rock. What do you think of a low output "The Voice"? That's the budget I'm thinking off. How about a phonostage. Should I consider a higher output moving Iron or magnet so I can but a less expensive phonostage? Thanks. |
Lew and Ecir, that is exactly correct at 6.5 grams. I like it so far.
Again though, can we come up withany carts. that are either no longer made but more current then the ones being discussed, or how about from what is currently being made in MM ?
Thanks,
Wayne |
Regards, Raul. Several comments were made concerning the ZLM stylus, perhaps three weeks ago. It is entirely possible that I had misremembered and the comment was made by another. Apologies.
The Acutex: the 315 diamonds' profile is 0.3 x 1.6 x 0.6, compliance 38x10-6, fr. resp. 20-40khz, tip mass given at 0.6mg.
For the 320, stylus profile 0.3 x 1.6 x 0.5, compliance 42x10-6, fr. resp. 20-45khz, tip mass 0.5mg. The lower tip mass for the 320 is due to the diamond starting from a rectangle rather than a square before the modified Shibata "tri-radial" STR profile is ground. As the 320 "Vital" is wider than deep, Acutex stated stylus weight is reduced by 40% and also has a positive influence on the integrity of the stylus in it's nude mount.
The 315 rolls off slightly below 50k. The 315 is flat from 50hz to 2k, then a 2dbl drop to 15k at which point it returns to flat through 20k.
The 320 stylus is a consistent 2dbl high from 20hz to 2khz. and again from 12 to 20khz with a slight drop off between, practically the opposite of the 315, but they are never more than 4dbl. apart.
The 315 is warm and relaxed with no evidence of confusion, however the 320 is more articulate. The 2dbl. increase above 15k with the 320 is apparent with an A/B comparison and the smaller tip mass is evident in transitions and decay. Slightly heavier, the 315 does demonstrate more energy and encourages one to listen into the selection. The 320 is crisp and agile in the groove and has the same quality of voice so attractive in the LPM 315-111STR.
A purist (esp. for classical, "Mozart Serenade in G" is inspirational) would have to say the 320 is better but for extended listening I find the 315 very pleasing.
Ecir38: There is currently a NOS stylus for your Grace F9-L, (gold body/clear holder) offered on Ebay, the F9-L cartridge is of higher output than the F9-E and these line contact styli are rare. Should you wish to consider expanding your collection, there is also a Sonus V with stylus, no offers after three days. Another of the Peter Prichard (after leaving ADC) designs, this one is being offered as a "DJ" cartridge. This is unusual because they have the reputation for quality sound but I have read Mr. Prichard didn't approve of the resonance generated from a tie wire and so the cantilever sometimes falls out. NOS styli are not expensive should you wish to consider it. Disclaimers, etc. |
Timeltel, I don't know about you, but I am sure I will never hear a 2db difference in output that occurs above 15kHz. However, do you think that because you know the measured frequency response variations, you might be biased to hear the two cartridges in different ways? I note that your descriptions of their respective sonic characters correlates with the measurements you describe.
I have had to make some repairs to my system and so have not yet had a chance to compare the 315, 320, and 412, all of which I acquired thanks to your help. But I will let you know when I have some feel for these Acutex offerings. (Raul, I bought all these Acutex cartridges and styli because I felt so bad about not having a Technics EPC P100C. Now you've made us all feel deprived, because none of us own an AKG P100LE. By the way, does the P indicate that this AKG is a P-mount type?) |
Dear Ecir38: I always support ADC cartridges I like it but I don't own the MK2 but the MK3. Whom I know has very good experience on your cartridge is: Dgob and I hope he can put some fresh light on it.
About your Grace it is with out doubt a fine cartridge too and IMHO the E version could be better than the L one. The Grace manual states that the best F9 model is the: 9F and second one the 9E. Even the 9E according with that manual states that the 9L share the same elipthical stylus shape with the E model and not a Linear contact like the F and U Grace models.
Maybe Timeltel has a up-dated information about that this Grace manual:
http://www.vinylengine.com/library/grace/f9.shtml
Anyway, Grace is really good and if you can find the original Ruby one better yet.
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Timeltel, thanks for the heads up I have been watching the F9L stylus. If price doesn't go out of the box I will probably bid. I have two of the gold body cartridges, would like to get a regular that came with the F9E down the road.
Do you have a source for the Acutex 315 or 320?
Brad |
Dear Richardmr: Almost all the SS cartridges comes from B&O designs but with a different cartridge voicing ( according with what SS likes. ).
I heard the SMCC1 and I prefer the original B&O performance that IMHO is more natural and less hi-fi. The voice is very good and I can't say: hey don't buy it, please let me explain my thoughts:
there are several advantages in the MM/MI analog source alternative and one of those advantages is that the MM/MI cartridges has higher output that the LOMC alternative.
This higher output main MM/MI characteristic means that the cartridge signal that we heard/hear has not to pass for an additional gain stage ( like a low output cartridge. )where always that sensitive/critical cartridge signal is heavy degraded through the additional gain process.
If I was you and before the Voice I will try first the MMC2 original B&O cartridge that IMHO is really fine performer and that does not needs additional gain stages, you can find it in NOS status here:
http://www.lpgear.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=LG&Product_Code=BOMMC2&Category_Code=B_O
now and according with your budget you can buy too this one in NOS condition that was the top of the line and very good performer too ( very hard to find it too ):
http://cgi.ebay.com/Stanton-981-HZS-/200507414216?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0#ht_704wt_1137
IMHO both cartridges could give you a clear idea on the MM/MI analog source alternative in your fine audio system.
There are other MM/MI fine options that you will know in a near future by your own or in this thread.
Welcome a board Richard!!
regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Dear Waynefia: Right now you can buy any of these fine cartridges:
http://www.lpgear.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=LG&Product_Code=BOMMC2&Category_Code=B_O
http://www.lpgear.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=LG&Product_Code=NAGAOKAMP050&Category_Code=NAGAOKACART
http://cgi.ebay.com/Stanton-981-HZS-/200507414216?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0#ht_704wt_1137
http://www.pickupnaald.nl/?page=shop/flypage&product_id=4160
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Dear Lewm: No the P100 LE is 1/2" normal cartridge mount not P-mount.
Seems to me that the P in this AKG model means " Phono " to differentiated to some AKG headphones/micros., I can't say it for sure.
regards and enjoy the music, raul. |
Dear Timeltel: Thank's for share your Acutex experiences, that's what were my thoughts about. I trust in you so I don't have to buy the 320 stylus.
About the Sonus V I have to say that I never heard about it, I own the Gold Blue and the Dimension 5 but never be aware of the So nus V.
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Regards, Raul. As always, I appreciate the high level of knowledge and information expressed in this thread, as well as your gentlemanly manner in seeking confirmation.
A copy/paste from:
http://www.audiotools.com/oldcart_f.html.
"There was nota bene also a version of the F9 with a line contact stylus called F-9L and that model could be bought with an integrated headshell as SF-90. There was also a classic MC called F45D that Japanese enthusiasts talk about at times but I have not been able to find any info on it.
The technical specification of the F9-E are : Frequency response: 10Hz~45Khz Output @5cm/sec, 45°: 3,5 mV @ 1KHz. Tracking force: 0,5 to 2 grams. Reccommended Tracking force: 1,2 grams. Channel balance: Less than +-0,5dB @ 1KHz. Compliance: 26 x 10-6 cm/dyne. Stylus: Elliptical. Weight: 6 grams. Impedance: 1700 ohms.
The technical specification of the SF-90 (F9-L w/integrated headshell) are : Frequency response: 10Hz~40Khz Output @5cm/sec, 45°: 5,5 mV @ 1KHz. Tracking force: 0,5 to 2 grams. Reccommended Tracking force: 1,2 grams. Channel separation: -30dB @1KHz or better. Channel balance: Less than +-0,5dB @ 1KHz. Compliance: 20e-6 cm/dyne. Effective Moving Mass: 0,4mV. Stylus: Lx Line Contact. Weight: 15,5 grams. Impedance: 1700 ohms @ 1KHz. Resistance: 30 - 100 ohms."
From original Shinagawa Musen material, 90% is in Japaneese, the English portions I can relate. Grace F9-F: 10-60khz. Stylus, "Discrete 4". Compliance 25x10-6 cm/dyne. F9-E: 10-45khz, stylus, "Extended Range". 25x10-6 cm/dyne F9-L: 10-40khz, 5.5mV, stylus, "Advanced Luminal Trace", 20x10-6 cm/dyne. F9-U: 10-50khz, "Utility Trace", 25x10-6 cm/dyne. F9-D: 10-35khz, 0.65 mil. conical, 25x10-6 cm/dyne. F9-P: 20-20khz, 0.65 conical, 10x10-6 cm/dyne. Output for all is 3.5mV (5cm/sec., 1000Hz) except for the F9-L which is given as 5.5mV. Tracking 0.5-2gr., recommemded is 1.2 for all except the F9-P at 1-4gm., rec. 2.5. Resistance is 30-100k Ohm, universal. The distinction I hear between the F9-E/L is one of energy or articlation, another might hear other differences. As you mention, Raul, both are worthy of appreciation. You guys are sharp.
Lew: Don't underestimate the impact a 4dbl. (2dbl +/-) difference will make. Mark Twain: "There are lies, d-mn lies, and statistics". I've been misled by "spec. wars" too many times. In this situation the difference in hf. extension is obvious. You might compare bass transitions too. Best of luck, looking forward to reading your impressions. |
Raul: An apology. After my previous post, I accessed the V.E. reference you gave and wish to avoid any appearance of argumentivness. I am now less certian about the stylus profile given for various Grace cartridges. There is a note at the bottom of the manual stating specifications may change without notice. In an effort to be "Grace"ful, any error is mine by fault of inadequate research, so be it. |
Thanks guys, did ya'll notice the blue F9F that recently sold in matter of a blink of an eye the other day here. Have never even seen one of those before. It's ashame we can't see what it sold for anymore, just curious.
Brad |
Dear Timeltel, I was merely referring to the fact that my own hearing is practically non-existent much above 12 kHz and certainly non-existent above 15 kHz (probably more than 6-8 db down from 1kHz). I had it measured about 8 years ago by an audiologist. Yet I cling to the notion that I can distinguish good treble from bad, because 95% of musical instruments roll off above 8kHz. It's the harmonics that I may not hear well. Ach! Quien sabe? |
I have a worn F9L. I have looked at it and the F9E under a microscope and can say they are notably differant. The 9L had a worn stylus and suspension when I got it. I found a nos 9E, the reason why I have a 9E sylus on a 9L cart.
Brad |
Technics Epc-100c in classifides. The one with fixed headshell. |
Dear Timeltel: Well, seems that over time Grace change that stylus shape in the 9L.
I don't know with Grace but with other cartridges that have both options ( like the Ortofon M20's. ) I prefer the elipthical one. Seems to me that you prefer the Acutex 315 for almost the same.
Not always but the linear contact are more agresive and needs more care on the cartridge set up.
I own the 9E and the 9E Ruby but never take it under microscope to find out if there are differences in the stylus shape that it is supposed are the same.
Ecir38, I don't think that that 9L stylus replacement will goes for less than 100.00-125.00 or maybe more. All of us we know that these vintage cartridges has no " fresh " cartridge suspension/compliance and the like: maybe could be better to re-tip your 9L through VdH for almost the same price.
Regards and enjoy the music, raul. |
Dear Ecir38: I was unaware of that F9F. What I wish to find out is any of the Grace F14 or Level II cartridge models.
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
One thing limiting about the SME 3009 II Improved with the fixed headshell is it's capacities in being limited to cartridge weight and VTF at 1.5, where Ecir's III has other capabilites even though it is a low mass arm. I like some of Raul's suggestions, but even the Nagaoka is bordering on to heavy when you throw in the weight of mounting hardware. I like the arm, but it is limited it seems. |
Greetings, Lewm: As some suspect but have been too polite to say so, I am deaf as a telephone pole. I have trained myself to enjoy audio by observing the action of dust motes in the air. The problem is, when my humble abode is overly sanatized the quiet is distressful.
Voltaire: "Opinion has caused more trouble on this little earth than plagues or earthquakes". Where is Axelwahl? |
Dear kcc123, do you have to use the damping on the AT 1100 arm? Thanks in advance for your help as I may not have access to a computer on vacation. |
Dear Lewm: In my Tannoys supertweeters we can change crossover frequency in three different ranges: 14K,16K and 18K and SPL in 1.5db increments.
With out change SPL I can " heard " changes from 14 to 16 or 18 but I can't heard from 16K to 18K.
These frequencies ar to high an almost imposible to discern in precise way but a trained audiophile can do it, the brain is almost unexpected about.
regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Dear Headsnappin,
I do use the damping facility but the fluid damper is only half filled with thin silicon oil, as I noticed that too much damping would deaden the sound. Without using any damping, the sound is livelier. So use it or not will depend on the matching cartridge and personal preference.
Best regards! |
Raul and all, The Grace F-8F and F-9F had Shibata stylii and blue clamps, and were oriented for playback of quadrophonic records. The F-8/9E were the "normal" version which used the same super-light cantilever. The "Level II" stylii were the later/redux series of stylii for the F-8 body. The "14s" were for the F-9. Personally I like the Es with the elliptical stylii.
FWIW, there was a "60th Anniversary" stylus series with a "US-" model appellation which was released last year. It was offered only to people who had been registered with Shinagawa Musen as owners of Grace carts (i.e. people who had sent in those little cards which came in the box with the cart (i.e. very few), and who hadn't moved in the interim (even fewer)). They were re-dos fitting most of the extant bodies, with the possible exception of the lowest-cost F-8H and the broadcast-model F-8D. Most of them were quite wide bandwidth and had 'super luminal trace', 'special elliptical', or 'micro-ridge' stylii. I'm still trying to find one... |
Kcc123, I have both 3000CST and 60,000CST silicon fluid on hand. Which would suit the AT1100 arm better? I've read that the older SME arms used 250,000CST fluid. I figure such a low mass arm as the AT1100 paired with high compliance MM/MI carts would need fairly "gentle" damping - but I've never experimented with damping fluid. |
Dea T_bone: Thank you for your wide explanation.
So: do you mean that Shinawaga Musen ( Grace ) is still a " live enterprise/company?
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
The SME Series III originally used 200,000cst fluid - I am close to finishing a retro set-up refurb including an SMEIII and was looking for guidance on this also.
FWIW here is Johnnie's (from Audioorigami) view on damping fluid for hgih compliance carts that he kindly shared with me -
"no my fuild is much much thinner than the sme or rock silicon fluid after seeing the damage the thick silicon does to stylis (cause it slows down tracking ability esp on warped and oof centre lps) i only suplly a fliud that about two time thicker than water...this damps but does not hinder stylis movement......i think the thinner fluid does a similar damping job to the thicker stuff but does a lot less record wear imagine how hard it is to run in water and thats very thin!!"
Cheers,
Alex L |
Dear Alexl7333: That was almost what I was wondering: why in a non-unipivot tonearm design was not left free movement of the cartridge cantilever/stylus?
I don't see advantages but each one of you are the best judges. In my SME IV ( with damping " mechanism " ) and in the MS MAX 282 I tested for some time with damping and at the end I was/am convinced that with out damping both tonearms performs better with any cartridge I mounted.
Regards and enjoy the music, raul. |
Well, what I was wanting to say is: that the cartridges performs best with out damping.
raul. |
Dear friends: Recommend!!!!:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Audio-Technica-AT155LC-Vintage-Cartridge-BRAND-NEW-NIB-/290466499590?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0#ht_2743wt_1137
Regrads and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Alex, I agree with Raul. I originaly used 30,000cst for my SME III and have since removed it with better results.
Brad |
Hi Jb0194,
If I were you I would use the lower viscosity 3000CST silicon fluid which is 20 times thinner. It will provide a lesser degree of damping and not hinder the movement of the cartridge and tonearm, a kind of best of both worlds.
Having said that I use fluid damping on my AT 1100, being controversial, I have never used the thick silicon fluid provided by SME as I simply use it without any damping. Has anyone used vegetable oil or engine oil instead? Hehe! |
Dear friends: Siniy123 was the first person that recomemded me the: Shure ML140HE, I just bought one in NOS and will see how good it is.
regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Kcc123, If I do experiment it'll be with the 3000 CST fluid, with both an AT1100 and Infinity Black Widow. |
In case anyone is interested in arms for MM/MI carts, I'll hopefully soon be listing a few:
AT1100 and Infinity Black Widow (spares, as I own two);
ADC LMF2 (new);
Victor/JVC UA-5045 and UA-7045 |
Raul, I think it may still be 'alive'. The address and phone number show up in an online directory of Shinagawa Ward.
The best way to get in touch with them might be to go through Kimura Musen, as they were a/the main retailer in Akihabara for Gracecartridges and replacement stylii. |
for anybody interested in an AT24 NOS you can find one that for some reason hasn't sold and much cheaper than at Pickupnaald mentioned in one of the links above with eBay seller ona1669.
usual caveats - I don't know the seller nor the quality of the catrdige.
Cheers,
Alex L |
thanks everyone for the responses, very helpful as I am getting an AT 1100 |
Regards, Raul: Looking forward to your impressions (when you find the time) of the Shure. IIRC, I provided this link before, comments from the designer of the ML 140HE.
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=126549&page=3&highlight=Shure+ML+140HE
For insights in tonearm damping from the Boston Audio Society, 1975:
http://www.bostonaudiosociety.org/pdf/bass/BASS-03-05-7502b.pdf
Previous issues have tonearm damping suggestions from Tom Holman and Bob Mitchel, also worth reading. |
I've been thinking for awhile about trying a silicone damping trough, but the question is whether any additional damping is counter-productive with a high-compliance cartridge? |