Dear Dgob: What you are hearing in the Point 4 is really an achievement because it is not only a very old cartridge but with a spheric stylus not the E version and for $5.00 the only thing you can ask is that: sounds/makes(noise)!
Btw, I want to hear all the ADC 20's family cartridges and I need some time to do it, certainly I will share my experiences about when I be ready for .
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Dear Jtgofish: +++++ " many MC cartridges sound refined and clear but lack vibrancy and musicality by comparison. " +++++
this is one of the main MM/MI cartridges characteristic and one of the advantages against the LOMC alternative.
As you noted that charecteristic that is exactly what almost all the people that like the MM/MI alternative noted too and that's why IMHO likes to them, including me.
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Dear friends: I think this one was a Pritchard design when he worked at GE ( before ADC. ), maybe one of you could have some interest on this cartridge design:
http://cgi.ebay.com/GE-RPX-046-VR-Cartridge-w-RPJ-003-003-Stylus-MIB-/260658201356?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cb070830c#ht_500wt_1154
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Raul,
Interesting assumption there. I'll look forward to your feedback on the ADC 25 after you've familiarised yourself with the 20 series of course. Do remember Aolsala's tips on set up, they seemed to make a positive difference with the Point 4.
He's now go me interested in trying the ADC XLM and XLM II. Just need to come across a barely used one in an estate sale where they don't recognise its value. Could be some wait!
Cheers |
Dear friends: Very good NOS B&O opportunity:
http://cgi.ebay.com/New-Box-Bang-Olufsen-MMC2-Phono-Cartridge-Superb-/180555891783?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a09f84447#ht_772wt_1137
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
There was a basic design flaw in many of the classic MMs, the compliance was simply too high to work properly in most, if not any, tone arm. High compliance was seen as a goal in itself and not as an aid to better sound. The response was to make lower and lower mass arms, again whether or not this improved the sound. I ordered a Transcriptors Vestigial arm but when I saw that it was essentially held together with thread I sold it without taking it out of the box. I think its mass was in the 3 gram area. I remember that one cutting edge cartridge supposedly would work best with an arm of NEGATIVE mass, unfortunately there were few of these on the market. If you will check the compliance of modern MM cartridges you will see that the compliance has been reduced to a more practical level. I agree completely with Raul about matching arm and cartridge. I have a problem with putting a cartridge with a compliance of 50 in an arm of 20 g mass and thinking you will get the kind of sound the designers intended. The cartridges were intended to work in something like the Prichard wood arm which was low mass. The high mass arms were designed for either MCs or low compliance MMs. I go back to the days of the cartridge being thrown in for one cent extra so I am astonished at todays prices but I am not sure that using NOS cartridges is for everyone. |
Timeltel, I have been listening to the Signet MR 5.0 and it is better than I remembered. I had listened only briefly to it on main system. Had been used on old cheap Rotel turntable in old system. Sound is a little more HiFi than the Empires and Otofon FL20. More lively like the Audio Technica's. I prefer the Empire D3 type sound but the Signet impressed me on some recordings.Expected it to be good on rock and jazz but surprised me on classical.
I do not claim to be an expert but would seems like a no brainer to find one if possible since you have the stylus.
On another note, are the ME stylus's you have genuine or replacement? The one I have is a replacement. I remember the ME being warmer, but that was on a Nad/carver system with Polk SDA's. Maybe if you had to many and needed to get rid of an extra????
I live 50 miles north of Dallas so I think taking it to you to listen to is probably not happening but if you can't find one in the near future Email me and I'll send it to you for a listen.
There is also an LC.
Danny |
Regards, Acman. Several comments I've read indicate the MR 5.0 is a good one, but then I've not read anything negative about any Signet. Some approving comments about their tonearms too.
I've been listening to the AM20 cartridge for a week now. Sometimes with the 0.2 x 0.7 "minature elliptical", nude mount stylus you mention for the MR5.0-me, they exchange nicely. A friend listened to it, comment was "I want one". The AM series may sound a little softer than the 5.0, I'm still trying to determine cartridge res. & impedence figures and haven't heard the 5.0 so don't take this as gospel. The AM series extends to AM50, I think this one may be the AT25 in Signet clothing. This stylus is a curious little metal insert that secures into the cartridge's socket with a screw. Lots of guessing going on here for now, I'm not sure I can afford real knowledge until next year.
Anyway Danny, I've found another of the AM series bodys, perhaps we can anticipate an exchange for sampling, when it arrives. Since you asked and it is informational, the styli are original & I won't forget you asked about a replacement. Some are labeled Signet, Stow, Ohio. Others are Signet Division, A.T. U.S., Inc., made in Japan. Knowing the time-frame would be of interest. |
Dear Stanwal: I can't say that a high compliance cartridge design is a flaw design, I can say is a different design.
Compliance is not only important for look at the tonearm we can use but is important on the " aptitude " to improve tracking in a cartridge and to lower the tracking distortion.
Nothing is perfect, always are trade-offs but an important subject in all this cartridge compliance and effective mass tonearm relationship is that almost all these very high compliance cartridges performs and gives you a very high quality performance even with severe mistmatch in the tonearm/cartridge resonance frequency figure.
My Sonus Dimension 5 has 50cu and performs just splendid in my AT 1503 tonearm that is over 20grs on effective mass.
The real " subject " is: how could be? why things are happening in this way when in theory is supposed can't happen in that way?
I don't have the right and precise answer and I don't know any one that already has the answer.
There are a lot of posts in this thread and other threads speaking on the same and the only answer I have is that the quality performance relationship between tonearm/cartridge is not only beyond that resonance frequency calculation but there are so many factors that have influence in the cartridge/tonearm behavior that for we can have an answer we need to create a mathematic model that take in count each one of those factors and its own and overall relationships and then " move/change " ( the values. ) one by one each of those " factors " and see what the model tell us till we understand what is happening.Not an easy task for any one.
In the mid-time what can we do? other than enjoy those gems.
regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Stanwal it is so complex that even to make the factors list is a very hard task.
Raul. |
Raul and friends...
Lots of cartridges tested but no Decca's?
any in the future??
Good Listening!! |
Dear Lharasim: I don't have on hand a Decca cartridge. Thuchan has it, I hope he can share his experiences about.
I'm sure other people own Decca's maybe some of them could help.
Regards and enjoy the music, raul. |
Timeltel, Interesting, So if stylus's are interchangeable on MR and AM then most likely they used same body??? That would give us a larger selection of stylus.
If you found the Signet AM collection with the MR me stylus that means others probably already knew this. So much knowledge is lost.
As far as AT 25 being a former Signet model,you are right, but it appears,at least from turntable needles, to be from TK10/TK9.
I kept the booklet to the Signet MR series for many years but now can not locate it. Will continue looking.
Danny |
Regards, Acman3. You're correct about the Tk9/10 sharing the same design as the AT25. Turntableneedles.com shows the same stylus for either application. Other than word of mouth I've not been able to find much accurate information. Thanks for the needed correction, anything you or another can provide is welcome.
I've been enjoying the lavender colored ML stylus from a AT440MLa in the AM20 body, as well as with a recently found AM10s cartridge. Either is a rewardingly accurate combination, boron cantilever and nude ml stylus for the 440MLa, IIRC. Even with my antique all SS rig, voice and piano are smooth, the splashy hf's that had prevented my enjoyment of the AT440 cartridge are absent while still retaining good extension. There is satisfing weight in the bass without seeming ponderous and imaging qualities are among the best I've heard.
I find the 5.0me stylus slightly edgier than the AM20me (minature elliptical), the 20 has a glow about the mids and is less analytical, this may be a consequence of the AM20's less bulky/rigid plastic stylus "sled". Rick Wakemans' and Al Stewarts' sometimes piercing vocals are nicely delivered. All permutations seem well matched to the 12gm eff. mass Tech. EPA-250, sounding especially good on a 6.5gr. mag. headshell at 1.4gm VTF. The variations I've tried all seem slightly muddy on the lighter EPA-500H arm which does best when tracking at a lower downforce. Keep in mind, other than the 440MLa stylus, none have more than 15 hours of use at this time.
I'm not sure how I've managed to overlook Signet in the past, all other cartridges in my collection are currently being neglected. |
Acman3: Danny, all. An addendum to the previous post: the cantilever for the 440MLa is tapered alloy. Nude square shank micro line stylus. It is probable there are similarities in cartridge body dimensions of the MR5.0, AM10/20-50 but output differs, the 440 at 4.0 mV, the AM series is 5.0 mV. From the cartridge data base, VE. Output for your MR5.0 is not listed. Output for the much accoladed Tk/e design also differs but styli are reportedly exchangable for models below Tk-9.
There are rumors the body for the Tk/ea is slightly wider than the Tk/e, which of these is comparable to the cartridges discussed above and also wether this is accurate will require additional information. |
Dear friends: As you know when Pritchard left ADC he founded Sonus, I own his latest design the Dimension 5 model and it is just great.
This Sonus one is NOS condition, I own it too and worth to try it:
http://electronics.shop.ebay.com/Cartridges-Needles-/64620/i.html?_trkparms=65%253A12%257C66%253A2%257C39%253A1%257C72%253A3989&rt=nc&_catref=1&_ipg=50&_jgr=0&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14.l1581&_pgn=2
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Sorry a mistake. Here it is:
http://electronics.shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=sonus&_sacat=64620&_odkw=&_osacat=64620&bkBtn=&_trksid=p3286.m270.l1313
Raul. |
Dear Timeltel: AT/24/25 and the TK10 ML 2/3 has different stylus shape. Instead the ellipthical one in the AT's the Signet's comes with line contact type.
I own both and you can see it through microscope and certainly you can hear it.
Regards and eenjoy the music, raul. |
Tonearms ? Being all the previous discussion on compliance and arm mass not being the only determining factor of compatability, what current tonearms would most likely work with the cartridges being discussed. I think I have an interest in the Nagaoka MP-50.
In tonearms new today with mass between 10-20g, should work with a wide array of MM/MI and even MC. Under $1000 Anybody have any experience with the SME M2, Jelco 750, Roksan, Helius, others ? No Rega please. Any other suggestions welcome.
Currently using a SME Series II IMP/fixed headshell, with an Ortofon VMS20E MKII. The SME needs rewiring, so thinking about a replacement for now, that would work with a wider aray of cartridges. Then I will decide what to do with the current SME later.
Thanks, Wayne |
Regards, Raul. As it is said, experience counts. I applaud your generosity in your willingness to share yours.
The last electronics store in the area to carry analog related items offered me their entire stock, an "offer I couldn't refuse". Included in this bewildering assortment are over 400 styli and 16 cartridges of various quality. Among the styli is a NOS stylus for either the Signet Tk9/10 or the AT24/25. The small aluminum block (approx. 3 x 10mm) that carries the suspension and miniscule catilever is anodized in red. Other than color, there is no numerical identification, unlike the example at ttn:
http://www.turntableneedles.com/Audio-Technica-ATN25-SIGNET_p_760.html#
I am perplexed and as I've just "won" an AT22 I would appreciate your opinion as to wether I've commited to the wrong model for this stylus. Would you have any insight? Thanks in advance, and for any other information or opinion you (or others) may care to express concerning Signet.
|
Wayne,
I do not have the experience with the "western" brand tonearms such as the Helius, Roksan, etc (even though they are probably made at the same factory as the Japanese tonearms). I have no experience with the JELCO arms. I like the long SME 3012R with some carts.
Among "vintage" arms for less than your budget, I can highly recommend the Micro Seiki MA-505 (any version; the MkIII is most versatile, with different armpipes, but I personally prefer the regular 505 or the X with silver wire); the Audiocraft arms (also sold as "Ultracraft" in the US) such as the AC300/400 and AC3000/4000 (the 3000/4000 have variable damping and several different armwands making cart-matching a breeze across low to high compliance carts); some of the arms from Stax and SAEC; and the Technics EPA-100 arms (or the 500/250 arm/armwand arms) are great and occasionally show up at around that price (more usually a little more). Most of these will work well with all but the highest of compliance carts. The Audiocraft AC3000/4000 will even work with those, as will the EPA-100 and EPA 500/250. With most all of these, it is not too difficult to find someone to rewire them later if necessary.
Disclosure: I have used and own a whole host of older Japanese tonearms (I live in Japan) both in the sub-$1000 range and above. I will probably be letting go of several arms in the not too distant future. I have previously owned/used/purchased/used at least one of most of the above, and may again. |
Hi All,
I noted that the ADC Point 4 was a fine cartridge for its time and place in the evolution of its designer (Pritchard). Well, outside these parameters, I've been exploring the ADC XLM MkII Improved. I have replaced its average stylus with a NOS shibata one from the Super XLM MkII. I can recommend this combination for various reasons.
All this makes me reflect on the various preferences that are continually (for several decades) announced regarding different ADC cartridges. These are more fascinating given that many of the commentators have tried most or all of the ADC XLM range and yet fail to find consensus. Worth pondering maybe!?
Cheers |
Hi Timeltel,
The Signet stylus you mention is the TK9E replacement stylus.I am not sure of the AT model you bought,but if it uses this same type stylus it will fit.I know you can swap the styli between the Signet TK9/10ML,the 10ML being the micro line and the TK9E is elliptical.Also there is a TK9LC line contact that was made.
|
Does anybody know if the shibata stylus assembly from the Signet AM50S is interchangeable with the AM30S (elliptical stylus)?
If you're not comfortable answering in this thread, private email is fine.
Thanks in advance. Bill |
Travbrow: Thanks for the insight. Without the mfgr's documentation it is, for me, frequently a guessing game in reviving these well regarded classics. I confess some of my efforts have resulted in questionable re-incarnations but suspect I'm not the first to "swop" styli around. This cartridge/stylus deserves better.
As to the AT22, the cartridge body (from photos, cartridge database) has the same cover plate for the cantilever assembly as the AT23/24/25, also the Signet Tk-9 which another member was kind enough to send an image of. As I'm proceeding as though the two are compatible, would you know if there is there anything I should be apprehensive of in removing this cover when confirming fitment? |
Timeltel,
The plastic installation guide is to be placed over the cartridge body,this should alighn the stylus assembly.Make sure the two magnets are lined up to fit inside the body,they should be when useing the guide.Then just snug up the screw.I did it already without the guide to(more risky with fumbling fingers),just remove the stylus from the guide and set in the body with tweezers and tighten the screw.
I know that just because it "fits" doesn't always meen it will perform as intended.I tried a Technics 205C MKIV stylus in my 205CII body with disappointing results.I think your AT 22 is similar to the TK9 but could be small differences that affect the sound.You should know by listening if it sounds "right" or not. |
Regards, Travbrow. Thanks for the installation tips and the gift of your time needed to respond. I hope replacement is not required and if so, that my "windfall" stylus is correct for the application. |
Dear Audiofeil: I don't see any apparent trouble with that due that the cartridges belongs to the same line, you can try and decide.
Regrads and enjoy the music, raul. |
Dear Timeltel: IMHO that the body shape in the 22/24 and the Signet's 9/10 can/could accept the same kind of stylus shape does not means performs the same, even if the motor is the same that it is not ( AT with the Signet ) there still are electrical ( inductance/resistance. ) differences between them ( including 22 and 24. )
Anyway, my statement is only to be aware about.
Regards and enjoy the music, raul. |
Follow up to my question.
According to AT tech service, a AM50S replacement stylus is compatible with the AM30S body.
Thanks to those who responded.
Now it's time to find an original replacement. If anybody has a line on one, please email me. I'm not interested in the LP Gear product.
Thanks Bill |
Dear friends: IMHO one of the best cartruidges out there:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Grace-F-9-F9-Ruby-Cartridge-/220666666951?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3360c21fc7#ht_2854wt_1137
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Regards, Raul: I'm hopeing for the best with this but if things don't work out it wouldn't be the first time the thrill of the chase exceeded the reward at the (turn)table.
VE cartridge database shows the same tracking downforce, output and impedance (2.2mv & 550 Ohms) for the AT22-25 and Signet Tk9-10 cartridges using this stylus configuration, except for the Tk9LCa @ 2.0mv output, 550 Ohms imp. Ttn.com lists their replacement as applicable for all the above models. Your observation and Travbrow's experience are taken into account and I thank you both. As of now "'alea iacta est", the die have been cast, the Rubicon is several days behind me.
I'm still puzzled by variations in color of the cantilever mounting block, will know more next week (not a difficult achievement) when I have opportunity to examine the AT22 and will report observations then.
How goes your progress with sampling the ADC line? |
Dear Timeltel: I'm not even start the ADC listening. Right now I'm in the " last " voicing of our self tonearm design.
regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
What is the difference between the stylus of the ATN23A, ATN24 & ATN25. the price ranges from $129 thru to $189. see link
http://www.stereoneedles.com/audio-technica.html
However at this web site, all these stylus seem to be interchangable??
http://www.styli.co.nz/stylus-709.html
I want to buy a replacement stylus for my AT25.
thanks |
Dear Downunder: I owned the 25 and now the 24 and I understand has the same stylus: difference is only that the 24 is a stand alone model. The 23/22 are similar two between each other but a little different with the 24/25 that I understand is more " refined ".
IMHO you need to buy the 24 at stereoneedles.
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Dear friends: This one for you that still want it:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Ortofon-M20FL-Super-cartridge-NOS-/310249592160?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item483c511560#ht_500wt_1154
and this one for everyone that want first rate quality performance:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Bang-Olufsen-MMC-1-PHONO-CARTRIDGE-RARE-MMC1-/230524268384?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35ac512f60#ht_2622wt_1137
and for those Stanton/Pickering lovers:
http://cgi.ebay.com/STANTON-881-MK-IIS-NOS-EXCELLENT-/300466097140?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item45f52ccbf4#ht_500wt_1154
http://cgi.ebay.com/NOS-PICKERING-XSV-5000-CARTRIDGE-w-NOS-D4000-STYLUS-/300466096324?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item45f52cc8c4#ht_500wt_1154
many good offers today:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Astatic-MF200A-quad-cartridge-and-new-stylus-/120619742720?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c157f3600#ht_500wt_1154
Good luck.
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Dear friends: More alternatives,
http://cgi.ebay.de/Tonabnehmer-Audio-Technica-AT-20-SLa-/280558240523?pt=Plattenspielerzubeh%C3%B6r&hash=item415293030b#ht_500wt_1154
this low mass tonearm:
http://cgi.ebay.de/AUDIO-TECHNICA-AT1100-AT-1100-AT-1100-Tonarm-tonearm-/330470679942?pt=Plattenspielerzubeh%C3%B6r&hash=item4cf1966586#ht_603wt_1137
another one:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Audio-Technica-AT-1100-Tonearm-and-Cable-Boxed-/120616742931?pt=Turntable_Parts_Accessories&hash=item1c15517013#ht_5016wt_1137
and other!:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Audio-technica-arm-and-counterweight-original-box-/180558614393?pt=Turntable_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2a0a21cf79#ht_698wt_1137
this one top of the line an almost impossible to find out!!!:
http://cgi.ebay.de/AUDIO-TECHNICA-AT-ML180occ-Tonabnehmer-cartridge-ML-180-/330470687397?pt=Plattenspielerzubeh%C3%B6r&hash=item4cf19682a5#ht_581wt_1137
and this Empire is good too:
http://cgi.ebay.de/EMPIRE-1000-GT-NEU-NOS-org-verpackt-/300463774633?pt=Plattenspielerzubeh%C3%B6r&hash=item45f5095ba9#ht_911wt_1137
in this one you can use the 20SS stylus replacement:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/rare-AUDIO-TECHNICA-AT15XE-cartridge-dual-magnet-box-/180556797141?pt=Turntable_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2a0a0614d5#ht_500wt_1154
WOW!!!.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Hi Raul
To confirm. the ATN24 & ATN25 are exactly the same styulus replacement, even thou they are charging more $$ for the ATN25 ?
regards |
Dear Downunder: Yes the stylus replacement is the same. Don't worry buy the AT24 stylus replacement.
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Raul, you never cease to amaze. Quite a bounty of possibilities you posted today. I think you are indefatigable! To add to the day's great choices here's an example of the Empire 4000DIII, still available.
http://cgi.ebay.com/EMPIRE-4000-D-III-MM-W-Cartridge-NIB-NOS-ALL-Original-/250695006030?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item3a5e96374e
Regarding the Astatic you posted, it wasn't that long ago that I got my NOS MF200 for $9.99...but considering its performance it surely is worth $225+ :)
Best, Jim |
Dear Dean_man: Today was a great day for great cartridge opportunities that you closed with that great Empire, thank you.
Yes, the MF 200 is worth even more $$$$
regards and enjoy the music, raul. |
Regards, Downunder: For your AT25, another option:
http://www.pickupnaald.nl/?page=shop/flypage&product_id=382&category_id=
You may find it interesting to view (scroll down the page, your querry about both assemblies being silver might be answered):
http://www.adelcom.net/SignetStylus1.htm |
Hi All,
An offline conversation has made me aware that my having described the Empire 1000 ZE/X as "great fun" might be seen to undermine its quality. Just to clarify, I think it is a 'great' cartridge but not of the quality of my Technics - to which I have become addicted. Nevertheless, the 1000 ZE/X is undoubtedly a high quality tool and reproduces very well in comparison to other cartridges that I have heard.
Cheers |
Dgob: Agree the 100ZE/x is a fine performer. Do you already heard the Empire 4000D3?
Regards and enjoy the music, raul. |
Raul,
No, I haven't had a chance to hear one yet. If you look at my earlier thread started about the 1000 ZE/X, you'll see that I was strongly recommended to get hold of the 4000 but I've still not done so yet - even though I was made a kind offer by the seller of the DIII Gold quite some time ago now. I look forward to hearing one on someone's system at some point. However, if I should come across your other key recommendation again (and finances permit), I'll definitely give that a try.
To be honest, I'm really just enjoying actually listening to records at the moment (when other work related demands permit) through the Technics and Empire.
Bliss |
Dgob,
I have both the 1000ZE/X and 4000D-III Gold and whilst I love the 1000ZE/X (only on the right arm), I strongly recommend that you obtain a 4000D/III whilst you can. I find it quite different to the 1000ZE/X whilst still retaining the seductive 'realism' of the Empires. It also is not so critical of arms being listenable even on the Phantom II. The 4000D/III is just so good.....I bought a second one! |
Getting ready to start trying some carts out. I'm only at 75pF right now with tonearm and cable. Any preferance for type of caps to use to get to 100-150pF?
Brad |
Halcro,
Many thanks for the endorsement. Btw, I really appreciated your (or your better half's) description of the 1000 ZE/X's natural presentation: "like water". It seems to just about sum it up. If you get a chance I would be interested in hearing your take on your 4000 DIII in comparison to the Technics P100 Mk4.
Although not my first priority, I really will pick up a 4000 DIII LAC though - if a suitable opportunity presents itself in the future. For me, the level of performance from the Technics (detail retrieval, vitality, staging, frequency extention, PRaT etc) is simply amazing even in comparison to the 1000 ZE/X and my other top rated cartridges. I suppose that's probably why (with a maximum of 4 cartridges to select for ultimate play on my turntables) I have not been in a rush to try the 4000 so far.
Gratefully |
I know that in the past certain manufacturers had a 'recommended' capacitance level but is there a case with an MM cart where MORE capacitance would be desirable than the minimum possible? |
Dear Ecir38: At the end of the page #14 you can find a good alternative for the caps you are looking for:
http://www.percyaudio.com/Catalog.pdf
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |