Regards, Lew: The assumption is that unless intended for Quad/4channel use, and relative to mass production of audio devices intended to be used by the typical home-owner, 47k is the universal standard. This has much to do with the low or mid-fi quality of these consumer intended systems and the fact that most listeners of the period didn't care to invest in the requirements to maximize cartridge performance. To the best of my recollection and viewed as a unit, turntable capacitance (arm & IC's) was typified at 100pF and many of these had the patch cords soldered in place to prevent the uninformed from changing intended capacitance. Consequently head units were usually supplied at 47k and 200pF, popular cartridges of the era (Stanton 681EEE is a good example, 47k/275pF) reflect this. IIRC, many Empire cartridges were intended for 100k, consequently their reputation for warmth but deficiency in hf's. This, to establish a background.
If a phono section or preamp offers the options of 10/50/100k res. and 100/200/300/400pF cap., there are then twelve possible combinations. Introduce cartridge output inductance (the Shure V15-111 was 1280, again, IIRC) and resistance there are then so many interactions lengthy computation is required to make any remote assertions about correctly loading for a specific pickup.
Considerations involved are resistance induced roll-off of hf's, cantilever/tie-wire introduced roll-ups derived from uncontrolled mechanical resonance (distortion) and the design characteristics of any feedback loops, gain or resistance inherent to the phono section involved.
Harmonics, intermodulation and the acceleration of the stylus also contribute, infrasonic frequencies affect both the charge on capacitors and the impact on harmonics in the intrasonic range, capacitance will affect not only midrange harmonics and hf rolloff but have influence on harmonics through the mid bass frequencies too, and it's consequential overflow into lowest bass.
The short answer to your premise is "possibly". Read the above referenced Holman paper, draw your own conclusions and again, politely, allow me to bow out of this particular discussion as my familiarity is experiential, it's complexity exceeds my mathmatical proficiency and this is where it's ultimately heading.
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Thanks, T. I was just wondering whether the relationship between R and C follows the formula for a first order Butterworth filter: f = 1/2*pi*R"C, where f is the -3db point in a 6db per octave filter. As you can see, both R and C are inversely related to f in this formula. So, if R goes up, C must go down to maintain the same value for f. etc. It's simple algebra. |
Nagaoka MP-50 capacitance loading spec's, anybody have it, or any info on what you used ?
Thanks
Wayne |
Spec's I found for MP-50 capacitance is 100pf. That is pretty low, and I would assume pretty hard to get to ? |
Hello, Lew: I'll go for this (in spite of my better judgement) again.
Dealing with cantilever resonance and cartridge voicing, the designer of the ADC Astrion:
"The dynamic absorber was a trick to voice. It was a little rubber resonant stub. It was pulled around the magnet with a rubber sleeve, kinda like pulling your socks up with a soda can stuffed in the toe area. How much and where it was pulled tuned the absorber, which turned a single mechanical impedance variation into two lower amplitude ones. It's just like a ported speaker enclosure really. This needed to be done because it was within the audio range."
The gentleman responsible for the Shure ML140HE:
"In the III and the IV in order to get a low mass the cantilever first non rigid body resonance had to be in the audio range. In the III that made for a small sag and peak. In the IV it made for a lesser sag and two peaks. They were all well controlled.
"The V , V15 RS and ML140 did not need this. We could get the primary shank resonance as high as 30-50kHz. So it was simpler to build and easier and more stable as far as voicing.---(The cantilever) tie wire has a resonance of its very own. Almost all of them, based on length and diameter of the wire ended up somewhere around 17kHz. Many designs went to great length to dampen and tame that resonance but....and here is the big deal....even if you tame the amplitude resonance so flat you can't see it in a swept sine wave plot....you haven't done a dang thing for the 180 phase shift that must occur when that wire passes through its resonance, damped or not."
The above offered as examples of mechanical influences.
From http://www.hagtech.com/loading.html,
"This is a quick study of various phonograph cartridge loading conditions, a rather straightforward analysis using a simple model in Pspice. Obviously, real-life conditions are far more complex(!), but general trends and first order results can be realized. Effects of RIAA equalization have not been taken into account - perhaps altering the results a little." (IMHO, a model of understatement)
Manufacturors recomendations: Shure M97xE: 47k, 1550 Ohm output inductance. AT 440MLa, 47k and 3200 Ohm. Tech. EPC-100/100C at 47k and 210 Ohm. Stanton cartridge inductance is all over the map, recommended cap. and res. is a universal 47k/275pF.
Anyway, thanks for the formula, (undeserved satire follows) proof that R & C are inversely contingent and a clear demonstration that when scientifically described and using a specific mathmatical model, interaction of styli, cantilever, and cartridge mass and materials have nothing to do with resonance, all cartridges with equivilent generators will perform the same. None of this is offered as argument, just to make the point that a focused equasion will describe only a specific phenomena.
Lew, thanks for sharing information and I know this calculaton is relevent but in useing this model as a sole determinate one may not realize the full potential of their cartridge. I believe you'll appreciate this when you get your rig back up to speed and have time to compare the Acutex 315 to the 320 stylus, same engine but altering C & R will elevate the performance of either, I think you'll find compliance, tip mass/velocity and even VTF relative to the generation of signal are contributing factors. Meanwhile, take care of yourself and family.
Those who think dial-a-load could be handy might google AUDIO RESEARCH MCP-2 Moving Coil Phono Preamplifier or give consideration to a similar unit.
Kyaking/trouting the Red River Gorge, eastern Ky. Appalachion Mts. through the weekend, hope to return to find an ATN-25ML stylus (hi, Downunder) delivered. Peace. |
Hello,Does anyone know where to find an original replacement stylus for a Technics 205c MK 3 or 4. Danny |
3s are sometimes available. 4s are quite rare. You usually have to wait until they come out on ebay or similar. JICO made a stylus specifically for the 3 but they too are rare, and out of production. JICO styli for the 205CIIX are available much more frequently. I have heard they will fit the 3 but have no experience and so would take that info with a big grain of salt.
Separately, it is possible that a company such as Roundale Research (a Japanese retipper) or JICO themselves could retip/re-cantilever the stylus carriage you have. |
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Timeltel and everyone else, Almarg has explained the relationship of load capacitance to frequency response for both MC and MM cartridges, better than any explanation I have seen. For me it unravels the paradox of how increasing capacitance could improve hf response, in some cases. Turns out the equation I offered is only half of the story. One needs also to take into account the inductance of the cartridge. I would suggest that you go to the post I have cited here. It's on the "MM cartridge and capacitance" thread. �There will be a quiz tomorrow. http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1286155618&openflup&9&4#9 |
I just realized, in the post I cited, Al is discussing the math. The verbal explanation is a few posts up the thread. The latter may be sufficient explanation for most. The formulae will not need to be memorized for the quiz. |
I am coming upon this thread late, but the simplest answer is so you don't need an additional SUT and extra set of cables with all their variables. |
Yes, that is the simplest answer. But, as Einstein said, any hypothesis should be as simple as possible but not simpler. |
It seems to me that the term "low pass filter" is applicable here no matter how much resoning is opposed to it. The combination of inductance, resistance and capacitance, the way it exists at the input to a phono preamp comprises a low pass filter. Thats the extent of my thinking.
From what I remember of the class, it is basic electronics. Adding additional capacitance to the passive circuit, comprised by the MM cartridges inductance and the input resistance and capacitance, just makes the situation worse. Thats how the effect is manifested if I understand it correctly.
Adding capacitance, or changing any of the loading parameters of the MM/MI cartridge changes the effective frequency of the low pass filter. This is how the sound of the cartridge is changed. It isn't magic, its a low pass filter.
The fact that the filter's effective frequency (forgive me if I get the terminology wrong...its been a while) is so close to the audible spectrum makes the effect on the sound we hear more pronounced.
From the standpoint of a purists view this is something to avoid. In actual practice it may be much less objectionable but it does exist.
This is one of the main arguments that LOMC loyalists use to tout their approach over the MM or MI cartridge. LOMC cartridges do not have to be loaded down and the effective frequency of their low pass filter is much further up the frequency band which poses much less a problem.
FWIW, I couldn't care less but it is interesting to note that the filter does exist and that the combinations of parameters create a low pass fiter very close to the audible spectrum.
There are several popular MM/MI cartridges that avoid this issue by being a very low output version of the family they belong to. They have lower output because they have less turns in their coil windings which means less inductance and the resulting low pass filter is positively effected (moved up in frequency). I believe Raul pointed out one of them in his initial list (Stanton/Pickering LZS?).
Whatever the case it is a viable issue and the sound from a MM/MI cartridge would probably be better if the low pass filter's frequency could be moved further up in frequency. This possibly explains the popularity of some low output MM/MI cartridges and their sound.
Ed |
Remember - as with all filters, there is phase shift involved, and this is audible, also. Another theoretical advantage to mc or very low inductance. |
It seems to me that the term "low pass filter" is applicable here no matter how much resoning is opposed to it. The combination of inductance, resistance and capacitance, the way it exists at the input to a phono preamp comprises a low pass filter. Thats the extent of my thinking.
From what I remember of the class, it is basic electronics. Adding additional capacitance to the passive circuit, comprised by the MM cartridges inductance and the input resistance and capacitance, just makes the situation worse. Thats how the effect is manifested if I understand it correctly.
Adding capacitance, or changing any of the loading parameters of the MM/MI cartridge changes the effective frequency of the low pass filter. This is how the sound of the cartridge is changed. It isn't magic, its a low pass filter. Ed, that is simply not correct, in the context of the R, L, and C values corresponding to typical MM cartridges. As frequency is increased, eventually a low pass rolloff will occur. However if the proper amount of capacitive loading is applied, before that point is reached a resonance will occur, at the frequency for which the magnitudes of inductive reactance and capacitive reactance are equal. For typical MM cartridges, if the proper amount of capacitive loading is applied that resonant peak will extend overall frequency response, before the higher frequencies are reached (typically beyond audibility) at which the low pass filter effect predominates. If capacitance is significantly lower than optimal that resonant peak will be moved up in frequency and reduced in amplitude, resulting in a frequency response dip in the upper treble, followed by a partial recovery as resonance is approached. See the following: http://www.hagtech.com/loading.htmlAnd for further background: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RLC_circuitLew, thanks for the nice words. Regards, -- Al |
Hmmm...I am familiar with the Hagerman Tech webpage you referenced Al and the curves displayed there look like a low pass filter...at least there is a roll off of higher frequencies dependant on the values of the particular components. Does this not indicate a low pass filter?
Thanks for responding, Ed |
Hi Ed,
As I indicated in my previous post, above a certain frequency a low pass rolloff will occur. However in the case of a MM cartridge if there is too little capacitance that rolloff will occur at a lower frequency than if optimal load capacitance is applied.
The reason for that is that the resonant peak created by the interaction of load capacitance and cartridge inductance will compensate for the early stages of that low pass rolloff. If all of the values involved are just right, the two effects will cancel each other out within the audible region, producing a smooth frequency response to 20kHz, followed by a low pass rolloff starting at some higher frequency.
The first graph on the Hagtech page, although based on a somewhat lower inductance than is typical with MM's, shows the effects of different values of capacitance. As capacitance is increased, the amplitude of the resonant peak increases, and the frequency at which it occurs decreases. Higher inductance, corresponding to typical MM's, will lower the resonant frequency further, into the audible treble region if capacitance is optimal, where it will compensate for what otherwise would be an audible rolloff. With too little capacitance, that compensation would not occur, and the rolloff would occur at audible frequencies.
That is why makers of MM cartridges commonly specify a recommended load capacitance.
Best regards, -- Al |
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Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Regards Almarg, Lew, Ed and others. I've thoroughly enjoyed this discussion of cartridge loading and Al, your clear language and definition (both formular and written) of cause and effect makes the importance of understanding this relationship in any primary determination of MM cartridge loading obvious. Thanks to all. |
Hello Audiofeil, Any leads on Signet AM50 stylus replacement? I am considering the LP Gear if not.
Thanks, Danny |
Hello Timeltel,I found an original Signet MR5.0 ME stylus.Cannot tell the difference between the original and replacement. Found output to be 5mv like AM series in archives of audiogon.
Also wanted to say thanks for the lead on the acutex 320/315 styli.Was able to get the last two.
Danny |
Regards, Acman3: For either the Signet AM or TKe"a" series, AT styli from ATN102 through ATN152 will work, these utilize a rectangular alignment pin, personal experience confirms this. Turntableneedles and Pickupnaald.com have some interesting offerings, as does lpgear. JICO offers a Shibata replacement, ATN122LP.
To the best of my knowledge, the original Signet TKe uses a round alignment pin and the MR series is slightly narrower but would accept the ATN1x2 styli with some very minor shimming at the sides if one felt it needed. Concerning the above, one would be wise in makeing their own determination.
Good luck in completing the Acutex, the 315 and 320 styli are very different performers, you should enjoy both but for different reasons. |
Hello Timeltel, I already have the Acutex LPM 320.The smoothest high end.I had been a little wary of playing much with replacement styli being difficult to obtain. I had used the 312 but as you have already mentioned it loses much of the magic of the 320 although, not bad.
I am now looking at signet 24/25 but have spent much to much for someone trying to upgrade a turntable/arm and have just picked up Audio technica 15xe that needs an ss upgrade.
Thinking about a loan for Grace ruby Raul pointed out.LOL.
Thanks, Danny |
Dear friends: This one is looking for an ATN-20SS stylus replacement:
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Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Regards, Raul, Danny, all. Currently I'm becoming enamoured with a Signet TK3ea, similar, if not identical, to the body now being offered with the well regarded AT 150MLX. On the bargain priced TK3ea engine, I've gone through styli for the Signet AM 10 (bonded minature ellipt.), AM 20me (nude min.ellip.), AT102e (.4 x .7 bonded), AT122e (4 x 7, tapered cantilever), AT120e (.3 x.7 nude), AT440MLa (micro line, nude) and AT140LC (line contact, berillium cantilever, nude). The 440ML is bright, the 120e mellow, the 140LC is excellent and leads to consideration of obtaining a stylus for the AT152 or 155LC, the 160/170/180 styli are seemingly extinct in NOS condition. The Signet bodies are frequently offered, the ATN140LC available from a number of vendors. Soundstage is in front of the speakers, imaging and layering are excellent, detail and transients commendable.
Members from Gov't Mule, Allman Bros. and Black Crowes bands assembled for a bluesy (live) redux of DSOTM under the nom de plume "Blue Floyd". I have this on CD for entertainment while on the road and still have the original Pink Floyd on vinyl, a Gramophone first release purchaced in 1973. This I rarely play as familiarity sometimes leads to complacency. On returning from a four day trout angling excursion, for a fresh comparison with the CD I brought the veteran LP out for a spin and was (no hyperbole) amazed to hear on "Speak To Me" obvious over-dubbing in the deep bass, apparently done by Alan Parsons who engineered the album. Next was Vangelis' meditative "China" which incorporates a number of traditional Asian insturments. The overblown breath of the flautist across the top of the mouthpeice as he introduced vibrato was plainly heard. Mids and voices remain uncongested, the line contact stylus preserves clarity in complicated passages. 47k and 200pF at 1.1gm VTF, 12gm eff. mass EPA-250 TA, Jeweltone 8gm extremely rigid headshell with OEM leads. Bass is fast and firm without overhang or resonant bloom, mids are "liquid", hf extension and detail are appropriately scaled. The combination of the medium-high output (4.2mv) Signet engine and the linearity and tip speed of the upper-eschelon AT stylus gives rest to the conception of AT's house sound as voiced too forward in the upper registers, resulting (IMHO) in great audio that's relatively easy to source, a rewarding performer that won't break the bank.
Peace. |
Timeltel, Are you preferring the Signet over the Acutex, or just taking a break from the latter cartridge? |
Hi, Lew: Four cartridges in current rotation, the above mentioned Signet TK3(ea) with the ATN140LC line contact stylus, an AT 22, a Signet TK9 with the AT 25 stylus Downunder found and the Acutex with any of (and in order of personal preference) 310e/312STR/320STR/315STR styli. Currently in route is an ATN155LC stylus which will work with the Signet TK(1-7)a or AM series, and of course many of the AT cartridges accepting the rectangular alignment pin.
The AT22 is the most refined but with 2.2mv output can be underwhelming, perhaps due to either it's subtlety or my suspected lack of appreciation for playback at the highest level of accuracy (the old analytical vs. musical debate). Higher in output, the Signet TKea with the AT140LC stylus is detailed and assertive. Certainly not lacking in nuance, with some recordings it demands one's attention, lots of "wow" factor, soundstage is "in the studio" (four Paradigm Sig. S-4 standmounters, active sub just inside the foot of each). Concerning the Acutex, the 320 stylus would be most likely to gain "audiophile approved" status but the 315 has a nearly unique sense of presence and it's absence of distortion makes it my choice for long term listening. For my uses, it's different horses for different courses. The judgement of which is best will need to be made by someone of the "golden ear" subspecie.
An additional bit of information: AT styli with the "N" designation have the hinged stylus guard, those with the "P" incorporated (ATPxx whatever) are intended for P-mount application, lower mass but the functioning component geometries are identical. Signet bodies are currently inexpensive, TOTL AT styli can be had in NOS condition from numerous vendors but obviously stocks will eventually be depleted. Those with an interest in either line might consider obtaining their selections soon, a nominal cost of $150.00 total for this level of performance should influence only those under severe budgetary constraint. Is it true, the three sadest words in the english language are "coulda', woulda', shoulda'"?
My personal preference is for a stylus of the line contact variety, these are usually softer or warmer than the "micro" types and more resolving than the elipticals. Some of the cartridges discussed in this thread having variants are the Azden YM-P50VL, the Grace F-9L and Orto. M20FL. Shibata profiles are also typically pleasing to my ear. IMO, my really ancient rig, yada yada & etc.
Lew, others, do you find preference for a specific stylus type? Honored thread father Raul, when you've finished tweaking your CDP, could you share a few words of wisdom on stylus styles?
Peace,
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Timeltel, I really like both the Acutex 320 and 315. You described both well in past post.Not sure if I have a favorite.
I found that as T_bone mentioned earlier the Technics U205llX's Jico SAS will work with the U205/3 and have been breaking that in. Lot of potential but not sure about it at this time.The surface noise is gone with the Shibata but not broke in enough to make final determination,although currently listening to Bill Evans Trio playing live in my living room. Sweet!
Thanks for the Signet information. I will let you know what I think when I get it set up.
Cannot comment on stylus types other than I like the Shibata and all the cartridges you brought up. Original Technics 205c was elliptical on boron I think and other than surface noise sounds very good.I do not have enough experience to further comment.
Thank you for your willingness to share, Danny
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Would not characterize the Azden as "soft" or "warm". I really don't feel qualified to comment otherwise. My system has been out of commission for nearly 3 months, but I think, over this past weekend, I finally identified and repaired the problem I was having with one monoblock amplifier. Operative phrase, "I think". |
Regards, Lew. Glad to hear your system is up to speed again.
Interesting comment you make about the Azden, I remember your mention several months ago difficulty in dialing it in: "What I am hearing is that the sound congeals on massed instrumental crescendos and gets kind of steely". "Another simpler possibility is that the suspension of my particular sample of the Azden has suffered from the aging process". Possibly there is some variation from one example to another, or since you found one channel distorted: "I perceived that most of the distortion seemed to be in the right channel", might this have been early evidence of your failing amp? However, later you posted: (After) "the tweaks, I would say that the bass got even better than it was, and the treble simply calmed down, was less shrill with more detail and much much better definition. This change in tonal balance is normally associated with dropping VTA, so it was to be hoped for. Also, no more harshness".
With mine, I do hear a slight congestion in complicated passages but would not describe it as "steely". Perhaps I need to revisit it.
Peace, |
Hello,
I tried an Azden (ym10c) last Month .. It did take a ton of fiddling to get it "dialed in" in the end it was still Horrible .. IMO..and was easily bettered by my Grado blue...
regards,
|
Thanks for your candor, Weseixas. Timeltel, Yes, the distortion I was hearing back then almost certainly had to do with the incipient problem in my amplifier. It is the R channel amplifier that is now on my operating table since the early summer. Things came to a head when Brian Walsh, a dealer from Chicago who was visiting my audiophile friend up the street, came down to my house to have a listen. He was too polite to say anything, but I myself was appalled at the distortion, so I cut short the audition. The PS in the amp was oscillating fiercely, and it was not easy to find and cure the problem.
Back to the Azden. Raul ranked it at "8", about where he also places some of the better known and expensive MC cartridges. I just cannot agree with that. My Urushi and Colibri are in another higher league. However, since so much else was going on with my system at that time, I have to withhold final judgement on the Azden for now. I have since also acquired a Technics EPA500 tonearm with low mass arm wand, for auditioning these MM cartridges. We'll see what that does. In the end, we can always think that my sample is more negatively affected by the ravages of time than Raul's. |
I have no experience with Azden YM10C, but YM-P50VL (Vital Nude LC Stylus)-- which garnered previous praise on this thread-- sounds fine. |
Regards, Lew: You are being gracious. Very capable tonearm, you'll be pleased with it, low DC res. & cap. with the OEM IC's, congradulations. Is yours the 501"H" wand?
BTW, I also tried the Azden with the elliptical stylus, to echo Weseixas' estimation of the conical version (and Dgarretsons' of the 50VL), I couldn't get rid of the screeching "e" fast enough, the VL is a keeper. Same cartridge, different stylus, thus my interest. Not often discussed here. |
Hello Lewm,
Well if Raul gave it an "8" , i will have to suggest a defective cartridge or bad stylus on my part then. I still have the cartridge, so i will take another look at the stylus for sure, to see if this was the issue.
regards, |
I bought the Azden YM P50VL on Raul's recommendation and the sample sent to me by the US dealer, hummed loudly on all my 3 arms. I sent it back and he claimed there was nothing wrong but would send me a new one. The new one ( I suspect the same one simply returned), also hummed loudly on all my arms ( which now number 6). I simply placed this cartridge from the fine gentleman who sent it, on the ground beneath my size 8 steel-tipped boot and squashed the bejesus out of it. The sound was decidedly well balanced and realistic. |
Halcro, That's an Aussie solution to hum that I never had thought of. It did occur to me to apply the same treatment to my recalcitrant amplifier, but it's too large to be crushed into dust. I never had any hum problem with the Azden, but I just could not make it sound any way but slightly harsh and nearly strident. (Note my use of the terms "slightly" and "nearly", so as not to offend anyone.) But I was trying to make it sound good on a Dynavector DV505 tonearm with about an 8-gram headshell. Maybe the EPA500 will do better with it.
Did you try grounding the tonearm body to the preamp chassis?
|
Brings new meaning to "that cart really got my feet tapping!" |
Halcro! Novel application of applying appropriate downforce to achieve a flat response. I've got this moldy old Grado MT+. Lew wouldn't take it, even for free. hmmm- |
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Regards, Raul: Interesting evaluation of the AT 170ML, Stanton 881-Mk11 and the Tech. EPC 100-Mk4 in comparison to MC and digital performance:
http://www.regonaudio.com/Stanton881AudioTechnicaATML70.html
This was offered for consideration by a knowledgable contributor (thank you, Sir), over at VE where a MM/MC thread has been revived after nearly a year of dormancy.
Peace, |
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Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Timeltel, thank you for sharing that great REG article here! Regards, Jim |
....appropriate downforce to achieve a flat response... LOL Timeltel and T_bone. Lew, I've got 14 cartridges which have no hum in any of my 7 arms. Life is too short to kvetch with an obviously defective (and now improved) Azden. |
Regards, Dean man: Hi, Jim. Also, some interesting links to follow from that page. Again, credit to the gentleman who researched it. Have you decided wether to send your (IIRC) Acutex LPM 412 off for a makeover?
|
Halcro: Is there an instruction manual available for your Azden hum buster tweek? Hum?
Peace, |
Halcro, Did you flatten the cartridge body with or without the LC stylus? If the stylus survives, please send it to me and I will personally torture it by grinding it into vinyl for some 2000 hrs. |
Good morning Timeltel, Hi, Tom. I'm going to hold the Acutex 4XX and enjoy it "as is" for now. At the moment my 3XX is still occupying all of my attention, though! |
Ortofon mo30 ....
Broke the cantilever on mine, is this worth replacing (220.00) or can i do better at that price ...
regards, |
Dgarretson, sorry.....I never considered the stylus in my haste to send that damn Azden to the perfectly tracking tonearm in Hell where it's spindle to pivot dimension is constantly monitored by Beezlebub. |