Also for music, it's Vandy, Vandy, Vandy......
80 responses Add your response
Within reason, I have a very healthy budget. I almost fell into the "pay more it must be better" trap. I didn't and bought the SVS's (Ultra SB16) and kept the rest of the money. I am very happy with the pair of SB16's I purchased. The day you let your ears and not your wallet do the listening is the day you become a man my son. |
Has anybody tried several smaller subs added to a single bigger, more full-range one? That seems like it'd likely be best bang for the buck. You could locate the big one where it does best from 20-35hz and have 3 other subs for a smooth response above that. Low and mid-priced subs can frequently be found deeply discounted. The reason subs tend to cost a lot is that it's expensive to get loud and deep bass out of a small box without a lot of distortion. Having multiples would mean the individual subs don't need to be worked near as hard. I wonder if 6 of these would be better than a single $1,500 sub. Small, light, cone surface area comparable to a 19.6" driver. It would certainly smooth out room problems. If I were going to try something like this I'd run the signal through my equalizer and into a small, cheap power amp to the subs' high level inputs. I can't imagine it'd be wise to run a low level signal to 6 subs through the amount of wire that would be required. https://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/cabenc1344a/cabasse-santorin-21-m2-8-200-watt-pow... You could get 5 of these for the same money, probably an even better deal. Surface area comparable to a 24" driver. Plus you could brag you've got $8,000 worth of subs. https://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/cabenc1082a/cabasse-santorin-25-m2-10-200-watt-po... |
+1 for mr_m suggesting the VANDERSTEEN Reposted article provides a good summation of the conflicting strengths and warts in setting up a sub for music properly http://ultrafi.com/why-everybody-needs-a-good-subwoofer/ August 3, 2008 by ultrafi in Tips, Tricks & Info | Comments Off on Why Everybody Needs a Good Subwoofer… " …And Why a Really Good Subwoofer is so Hard to Find Audiophiles and music lovers are missing out on one of the most dramatic improvements they can make to their audio system: Powered Subwoofers. Most audiophiles won’t even use the word “subwoofer” in public, let alone plug one in to their precious systems. There is a kind of snobbery that exists in the world of high-end audio aimed primarily at receivers, car audio, home theater and especially subwoofers. As a matter of fact, subwoofers are responsible for many people disliking both car audio and home theater, since it is the subwoofer in both of those situations that tends to call attention to the system and cause many of the problems. The truth of the matter is that subwoofers have fully earned their bad reputation. They usually suck. Most of them sound boomy, muddy and out of control with an obnoxious bass overhang that lingers so long as to blur most of the musical information up until the next bass note is struck. We have all had our fair share of bad subwoofer experiences, whether it’s from a nearby car thumping so loud that it appears to be bouncing up off the road, or a home theater with such overblown bass that it causes you to feel nauseous half-way through the movie. You would think that high-end audio manufacturers would be above all of that, but you would be wrong. In many cases, their subwoofers are almost as bad as the mass-market models because they too, are trying to capitalize on the home theater trend that is sweeping the land. You see, it’s very difficult and expensive to build a good subwoofer. One reason is that a sub has to move a tremendous amount of air, which places big demands on the driver (or drivers). Moving lots of air requires a lot of power and that means an amp with a huge power supply, which can cost huge money. Finally, in trying to move all of this air, the driver (or drivers) which operate in an enclosure, create tremendous pressure inside of the box itself. The cabinet walls must be able to handle this pressure without flexing or resonating. Building such a box involves heavy damping and bracing which gets very expensive. When you consider these requirements, you quickly realize that it is virtually impossible to build a really good subwoofer (I mean good enough for a high-end music system) for under $1000. Yet most of the subwoofers out there sell for between $500 and $900. Manufacturers do this because their marketing research has shown them that that is what people want to spend on a sub, never mind the fact that what people want to spend and what it takes to get the job done right may be two different things. The result is that even most high-end manufacturers are putting out poorly constructed subwoofers that just don’t sound very good. I don’t want to give you the impression that anyone who really wants to can build a good subwoofer so long as they are willing to throw enough money at the problem, because that really isn’t true either. There are some pretty expensive and well-constructed subwoofers out there that you would never want to plug into your music system because they would most certainly make the sound worse. Why? Because of their crossovers. A crossover is inserted into your signal path in order to remove the lowest frequencies (the deep bass) from your main speakers so that they no longer have to do all of the dirty work. The deep bass will instead be dealt with by the subwoofer. The #1 benefit of adding a high quality subwooferto your system is not how it further extends the bass response, but how it can dramatically improve the sound of your existing power amp and main speakers from the midrange on up. That, my friends, is by far the most compelling reason to add a sub to your high-end music system. Once your main speakers are freed from the burden of making deep bass, they will sound cleaner, faster and clearer, especially in the midrange and midbass. They will also image way better because there will be far less air pressure and therefore resonance and vibration affecting their cabinet walls. And since the power required to make the deep bass is provided by the subwoofer’s built-in amplifier, your main power amp will be free from that burden and begin to sound like a much more powerful amplifier. The one big problem with all of this is that you need a crossover to roll off the deep bass in your system and achieve all of these benefits. And the crossover that comes with almost every subwoofer on the market will cause more damage to your signal than can be overcome by these benefits. That is the main reason that audiophiles refuse to consider adding subwoofers, even very expensive ones with well built cabinets. Enter the Vandersteen 2Wq 300 watt powered subwoofer. This is the only subwoofer that is specifically designed to be inserted into the highest of high-end music systems without doing any harm to the precious signal. So how does Vandersteen do it? Simply. In fact his crossover scheme is so ingeniously simple that it’s a wonder nobody else thought of doing it the same way. I’ll spare you an in-depth description and just say that the only thing you end up inserting into your system is a couple of high quality capacitors. That’s it, nothing more! No additional wires or gadgets enter your signal path. Hell, you don’t even have to disconnect the wire between your amp and speakers to add this subwoofer. The model 2Wq sub uses the same basic crossover scheme as the $15,000 flagship Model 5As. As a matter of fact, you can even run the specially designed Model 5A crossovers (M5-HP) with the 2Wq if you want the most transparent sound imaginable. So what about the other reason to add a subwoofer to your system: for more powerful and extended bass? I don’t care how big your main speakers are, they’re no match for a good subwoofer in the bass. A really good subwoofer can run rings around the best floorstanding speakers when it comes to bass extension, power and control because it is designed to be good at that and nothing but that, whereas main speakers have to be good at higher frequencies as well. Ideally, you want two subwoofers so that you have true stereo separation down deep into the bass. Stereo subs can also help to lessen room interaction problems by providing two discrete sources of bass information. Remember, if you can’t afford to buy two subwoofers at once, you can always add the second one later. Adding a pair of 300 watt powered subwoofers is exactly like adding a pair of 300 watt monoblock amplifiers to your system and upgrading to a pair of better main speakers at the same time. The beauty is that you don’t have to replace your main power amp or speakers to do it. But there is a problem here as well. Everything comes at a price, and the price you pay with most subwoofers is that when you add them and their built-in amplifiers to your system, they don’t tend to blend or integrate well with the sound of your power amp and speakers. This is especially true if you own a tube amp, because the character of your amp is nothing like the character of the big solid-state amp that is built into most subwoofers. The result is that your system sounds split in half. You can hear where one part of the system leaves off (namely your amp and speakers) and where the other part takes over (the sub and its amp). This is a HUGE problem for audiophiles who aren’t willing to destroy their system’s coherence for additional power and bass extension. Fortunately, Vandersteenhas the perfect solution for this problem that is, again, so simple, I wonder why nobody else thought of it first. His solution is to build a very powerful 300 watt amplifier that strictly provides the huge current needed to drive the subwoofer. You can think of this amplifier as only half of an amplifier; or just the power portion of an amplifier. The release of this power is controlled by the signal that is provided by your power amp. Vandersteen’s amplifier needs a voltage to modulate its current output, and what better place to get that voltage than from your main power amp? This way, your power amplifier is directly responsible for the sonic character of the deep bass coming from the subwoofer because it provides the necessary voltage signal. This voltage signal contains the unique and characteristic sound of your main power amplifier and insures that that character is maintained in the sound of the subwoofer itself. The beauty of it is that your amplifier is only providing a voltage reference and no actual current, so it is not taxed with the burden of “driving” the subwoofer in any way. As a matter of fact, your amplifier doesn’t even know that the sub is connected to it. The 2Wq’s potential is almost unlimited given that it will ratchet up its performance as you improve your power amp. Remember that you always want your subwoofer to sound just like your power amp. No better, no worse. NO DIFFERENT! After having spent time with the amazing Vandersteen Model 5A loudspeakers with their 400-watt powered, metal cone subwoofers, we were reminded of the sound we had with the awesome Audio Research Reference 600 mono power amps. With the Ref 600s there was a sense of effortlessness, openness and unrestricted dynamic freedom that we have only otherwise heard with live unamplified music. Listening to those monstrously powerful amps made us realize that all other systems sound compressed by comparison. Only when we heard the new Vandersteen Model 5As with their hugely powerful built-in subwoofers, did we again have a strikingly similar sonic experience. The reason is that the Model 5As provide a total of 800 high-quality watts, to which you have to remember to add the power of the amp we were using, the ARC VT-100, at 200 watts. This means we were listening to about 1000 total watts of amplifier power – not far from the 1200 total watts provided by the Ref 600s. With the Vandersteen subwoofer crossover and amplifier, you are able to get those hundreds of subwoofer watts to blend seamlessly and even take on the character of the ARC VT-100. It’s amazing! What’s even better is that the price of the system with the Model 5As and the VT-100 is under half the cost of the Ref 600s alone! Since this discovery, we have achieved the same kind of unbelievable dynamics and seamless blending with ProAc loudspeakers and twin Vandersteen 2Wq 300 watt powered subs. So, if you want the sound of Ref 600s but cannot afford them, buy a pair of Model 5As or your favorite pair of ProAcs plus a couple of 2Wq subwoofers and mate them with a VT100 and you’ll get surprisingly close. You can cut the cost even further by running a pair of Vandersteen 2Wq 300-watt subwoofers with your existing speakers. Or mate a pair of 2Wqs with your favorite ProAc. In any case, it is the magic of SUBWOOFERS that allows this to happen. It is for all of the above reasons that there is only one subwoofer in existence capable of integrating seamlessly into a high-end music system, allowing you to reap all of the benefits of having a subwoofer, with none of the drawbacks. And the Vandersteen 2Wq is the one. And just in case you think I am a biased source, our correspondent Blaine Peck (who, for all you know is also a biased source) recently wrote the following, with no discussion between us about the topic prior to his sending us his comments. Whether reproducing the plucked string of an acoustic bass or the sound of an analog synthesizer, the Vandersteen2Wq subwoofer is a seamless extension of any system. Nothing else need be added! With its internal 300-watt power amplifier, it is the perfect compliment to any sound system. Designed to take on the characteristics of your main stereo amplifier, the amp in the 2Wq will not sound foreign in your system. Also, through an extension of the Vandersteen design philosophy, a unique gradually sloping crossover system is implemented so you simply do not know where your main speakers stop and the 2Wq begins. Now that your main speaker/amplifier combination need not concern themselves with those power demanding low frequencies, they are freed up to work in a more comfortable range. Yes, now what is coming from your main speakers will sound better than ever. The 2Wq is not just another subwoofer. It consists of three 8″ floor-facing drivers, each with a massive motor. So why not a more typical single 12″ or 15″ design? Well frankly, the mass of a larger driver will not allow it to respond as quickly as the Vandersteen 8″ drivers to today’s demanding recordings. The 2Wq’s 8″ drivers are designed to handle the content but be “fleet of foot” at the same time. Concerned about where to put them? You need not worry. With the control of both its respective level and the “q” (how loose or tight the low end is) you have the flexibility to place them in a location that fits your living environment and not sacrifice performance. The simple beauty of this product will soon become an addition to your room. So whether on orchestral music, hard rock or something in between, the Vandersteen 2Wq will exceed your expectations...." Report this |
I’m a big fan of SVS SB-16 Ultras, I also have two Kinergetics SW-800 subs which I bought used and it took five years to find them. I ageee with a lot of posts above. Four asymmetricaly placed subs are best, use an active crossover such as a Mini DSP (Can add up to 12 biquad crossovers on each channel) with REW (Room EQ Wizard) to measure the room and MSO (Multi Sub Optimizer) to build the crossovers and you’ll have musical bliss. Money has to be spent to get low frequency control and tuneful base. I’ve spent almost as much money on my subs as my main speakers. I can’t emphasize enough the importance of the active system. With four subs phase, time delay, and room nodes can be corrected, which is the one note base people speak of. Thanks, Steve |
| Post removed |
Nevermind. I had read your first post to me as being a bit condescending but maybe you really intended to be helpful. So I will holster my sarcasm this morning. Sorry if I baited you. My point was, REL subwoofers are designed to do more than shake the room with air pressure during a bass drum kick or movie explosion. I don't know the mechanics precisely, but I have enjoyed Rels because they seem to enhance the whole frequency spectrum (obviously without actually reproducing anything above the setting on the low pass filter), and in a way better and different from other subs, for music. Maybe that is just another way of saying they really dial in well for music. And that includes vocals. With the Rels engaged, vocals also sound better. That does not mean I can "hear vocals through my subwoofer." |
@awooof -- What are your main speakers? I take it there are quite many ways to achieve well integrated bass augmentation, some of which have been mentioned here already, but be prepared to invest time, effort and patience to wring out the fuller potential integrating sub(s) with your fronts and acoustics. REL subs are popular and very well regarded as music subs in particular (a notable advocate of REL's is Paul McGowan of PS Audio - see his youtube videos to learn more on subs use and integration). JL Audio subs seem to bridge music and Home Theater prowess by being somewhat more powerful than REL's, and I'm not sure how their prices compare to REL, but they're not cheap. Then there's Funk Audio subs, which are also expensive and by all accounts they're extremely musical as well as being immensely powerful, using mostly 18-24" units in sealed, beautifully crafted (plywood) enclosures. Seaton Sound seems to provide great "bang for the buck," as do Power Sound Audio, HSU, JTR and others. Audiokineses Swarm multiple-approach subs are very interesting. SVS makes very good subs as well and also need mention - I've used a single SVS SB16-Ultra in my setup; a versatile, very high quality sub for both music and movies, easily providing the floor-shuddering effect (with immense power and weight) that comes from <20Hz performance while being subtle, informative and relatively "invisible" when needed. A great overall performer, which I intended to eventually use in pairs with another SB16-Ultra, but ended up going the horn subs route instead to augment my all-horn main speakers (more on that later). You do in particular specify "elite subwoofers." Well, to me there's no divide or dichotomy between "subtlety, finesse and musicality" - the usual go-to goals among audiophiles - and sheer, visceral power (rarely the traits sought by audiophiles); to the contrary, and both are needed to go "all the way," if you would. Headroom, and lot's of it, work wonders in the pursuit of a smooth, effortless and present/informative sounding bass, as do large radiation area, and as a general rule therefore I'd go with the bigger-driver subs, in pairs or more. Overkill to some; sorely needed headroom in my view. How one seeks to attain this goal though is not trivial, and calls for careful consideration in light of one's needs and practical, interior layout and limitations. Going further with the need for headroom my search has led me to DIY enclosure designs that do the heavy lifting, increase sensitivity, and relieves the driver - namely tapped horns (Danley Sound Labs holds the patent for TH's, but endorse DIY community efforts to build their own iterations). Depending on their LF-capabilities the upper range bandwidth of TH's is limited (usually not a problem with audiophiles that tend to cross over rather low), and they get quite big indeed, certainly if fairly flat <25Hz performance is required (Front Loaded Horns get even bigger). However, with the proper design, driver and build quality tapped horns puts out massive quantities of bass, but first and foremost the bass quality is excellent - something very few in the audiophile community seem to be aware of. Compared to the SVS SB16-Ultra I used previously my new pair of tapped horns, even far from being run-in and properly implemented, exhibit no audible smear, have a fuller and more natural midbass, and are smoother, even liquid sounding with a tactile presence that expose detail and information in the bass I've never been aware of. Not least: they integrate noticeably better with my all-horn mains. Many ways to skin your cat, as they say, but I find you shouldn't skimp on size, sensitivity and overall power handling to get the whole sonic picture - re: elite sub performance. Good sub(s) hunt.. |
When I was shopping around for subs for a 2 channel system I narrowed it down to JL and REL. I went with the REL as I found them to be more naturally revealing and yes they do enhance the entire musical spectrum. I like that REL is able to seamlessly integrate their sub bass systems into existing speaker systems with their Swiss-made Neutrik SpeakOn connectors. There are other cable companies that offer the cables if you are looking for an upgrade as well. |
jhajeski" I’ll never buy another brand" This kind of irrational, illogical, and kneejerk reasoning will severely limit, restrict, and confine your ability to improve, refine, and advance you’re Music Reproduction System. |
Right, harley. Because of the physical impossibility of EVER finding the right ONE. Its simply physics. Because bass frequency wavelengths are much greater than any residential listening room then any one sub source will inevitably create lots of lumpy bass. Equalization can't really fix this, for the simple reason it can only work at one location. So whatever boost equalizes that one location that needed it inevitably boosts in other locations that don't. The resulting overhang from excessive energy at those locations loads the room creating muddy bass. Which people then try to damp with tube traps, a never ending process of slapping band-aids on a problem that cannot in fact ever be cured because it is inherent in the physics of waves and walls. Duke says it better but after having read through a lot of the research and corresponded with him a fair bit now I am confident that is a pretty accurate summary of the problem. In fact as I may already have said elsewhere this exactly matches my experience across many rooms and speakers and years, although I never really brainstormed the answer. All I knew was no matter what speaker and no matter where it went and no matter where I sat the measurements and sound never ever would be right. Of course not. Because it can't be. Not with just one or two subs. The problem is not which subs are used. No single sub can ever get there. With four subs however suddenly it becomes easy! That is why I've just ordered four of the Morel Ultimate UW 1058 10" Subwoofers from Parts Express. These are some outstanding drivers and they have them right now on a hard to beat deal that gets you a quality sealed cabinet included for free! https://www.parts-express.com/morel-ultimate-uw-1058-10-subwoofer--297-130 There's plenty of MDF just sitting in my shop, right beside the table saw, and the router. But free is hard to beat. It'll take a while to get here, even longer to find the time to it all together (April, more'n likely- but couldn't let that deal slip by!) but then finally, finally I will have some world-class accurate smooth powerful and tuneful full range bass. Someone will I'm sure be happy to buy my Talon Roc. You want one? Its at least as good as any of the other miracle subs people seem to think work so well. |
The facts prove that subwoofers are not used the right way all over the world. During all audio shows, you hear the same flaws. Most subwoofers are still used without an acoustic room-correction system. Others use the measurement system which is a part of the subwoofer. But in all these situations it is 100% impossible to get the perfect integration. When you would test the subwoofer by simply switching it on and off, the sound and stage will even prove the flaws. But people have almost no insight and knowledge in sound. So for them is it never possible to understand why it is not good. Human beings are very easy to persuade with assumptions. They often will take lies as a given and a truth. In the world of audio, there are still many assumptions which are believed as truth. But, the sound can prove that many assumptions are chosen wrong on facts. When you switch the subwoofer between on and off you will hear that voices and instruments will often become bigger in size. And you will hear often that the individual focus of voices and instruments will become less sharp and palpable. You need a room correction system that can measure both the loudspeakers and subwoofer together. Then you can get the subwoofer in phase and it will understand where the loudspeakers are standing. This will create a superior level in result and integration. We call it Stealth Low Frequencies. It will blow your F. mind. The energy is there where it is on the recording. When you sit at your chair, you will always feel the energy of the low. frequencies fully separated from the loudspeakers. It is even separate from the subwoofer. This is the Reference level in using any subwoofer. I will not use names, but almost all subwoofers in the world are still too F.slow and use materials that are not light enough. The response of the drivers is still too slow. Timing is an essential part of all subwoofers. |
You can create a higher level in realism with a subwoofer in phase than any system without a subwoofer. In the past, I was never interested to use a subwoofer for stereo. But when I was able to use a room correction system that measures both loudspeakers and subwoofer together a new world opened. This world creates new levels in realism in sound which were not possible without the use of a subwoofer. To be honest I never thought that we could integrate a subwoofer at this level of precision. |
Hi bo1972 I watched your reviews about power cables and Tru Fi . I appreciate the new approach You used the Dragon power cable for the sub woofer for a "DNA" on this cable, capable of generating low immersive frequencies; I would have three questions about the Dragon : Would it be superior to the Hurrican power cable in low frequency and bass generation if would it be used to power an amplifier? (eg Hegel H 300) Is the Dragon generally superior to Hurricane or does it have certain valences that make it more relevant on certain areas of use ...? You said you should get Firebird to test them; if you had the opportunity to make auditions with Firebird where you would put it in comparison with the two, Hurrican and Dragon? Thanks a lot for the answer |