OTL. Not even close.
Which one to choose between two 80K$ tube amps?
There are two interesting 80K$ tube amps on sale at Audiogon.
https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis9jhj0-david-berning-co-211-845-otl-tube
The first one is David Berning OTL design with output of 60 Watts.
it looks beautiful. But I had never used OTL amp yet.
I am curious how it sounds with high efficiency speaker.
https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lisa27ii-jadis-ja800-flagship-tube-amplifier-six-chassis-best-ever-made-nos-new-old-stock-tube
The second one is Jadis JA800 with 6 pieces and 400watts.
I had used JA500 (only 4 pieces with 350 Watts) from 2000 to 2002 to drive B&W Notilus 801 with utmost authority and unbelievable slam.
It was kind of lifetime experience to own this beautiful and overbearing monster.
But I could not use it during summer time in modest size room.
Thus I let it go and got Silbatone 300B SET amp to drive efficient full range speaker.
350 Watt to 8 Watt
If you have money or hit the Jackpot, which one will you go for?
https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis9jhj0-david-berning-co-211-845-otl-tube
The first one is David Berning OTL design with output of 60 Watts.
it looks beautiful. But I had never used OTL amp yet.
I am curious how it sounds with high efficiency speaker.
https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lisa27ii-jadis-ja800-flagship-tube-amplifier-six-chassis-best-ever-made-nos-new-old-stock-tube
The second one is Jadis JA800 with 6 pieces and 400watts.
I had used JA500 (only 4 pieces with 350 Watts) from 2000 to 2002 to drive B&W Notilus 801 with utmost authority and unbelievable slam.
It was kind of lifetime experience to own this beautiful and overbearing monster.
But I could not use it during summer time in modest size room.
Thus I let it go and got Silbatone 300B SET amp to drive efficient full range speaker.
350 Watt to 8 Watt
If you have money or hit the Jackpot, which one will you go for?
125 responses Add your response
completely depends on the speaker and room size. those amps are like apples and oranges. they are doing different things. i had that specific ZOTL Berning 211/845 set of amps in my room over a weekend (Rick Brown, the guy with that ad, brought them) a few years back and did really like it. but not without reservations. my speakers are 97db, 7 ohm, so an easy load. but my room is very large and the amp i was comparing it to is my darTZeel 458 mono blocks. my dart monos command my large room with authority in a way the 60 watt Berning simply cannot, and also play in the same refinement realm as the Berning. so if i want ’everything’ then the Berning is not the ideal choice for me. OTOH my darts are twice the cost of the Berning. i’ve heard the big JA800’s and they are big and bold, but are not in the same transparency league as the Berning. but they will command a large room with authority. so horses for courses. both are true to their design intentions. i’ll take my big darts over either for myself. i also would tend toward an OTL tube amp type sound over a big push pull like the Jadis. but OTL’s have limits. |
if.....and this is a big IF.....your speakers and room can work with 60 OTL watts (not all tube watts are created equal)......then the Berning 211/845 is the real deal and one of the most transparent tube amps i’ve heard. it’s has top to bottom linearity rare in a tube amp. i highly recommend it. it is on my short list of favorite tube amps. and Rick Brown is a good guy. |
Wow, 80K amps! That’s awesome! Will never have this coin to drop on audio, if I did I would call,Rob Carver personally. He will come to your house, and shoot the shi* w you and help set them up, sign them, and have a beer and hang w you for the night. i would be on the phone immediately for: https://www.bobcarvercorp.com/silver-seven |
I own Jadis amps....BUT I would NEVER own the larger models! The 500 or worse, the 800, are going to be heat engines...and work great if you need a space heater and live in a very cold climate! Otherwise, why bother with that kind of heat generation??? I also happen to believe if you own a speaker that requires hundreds of watts to drive...you own the wrong speaker and have not considered the all important amp/speaker synergy. Best to dump the speaker and get a more easily driven model. |
crazy.. $80k for an amp ?? its cool that you have the money to spend but dang, you got to feel like you're being ripped off.. pop the top off the amp and take a good look at what's in side.. there's probably no more than $3k in parts (and that's being generous).. I believe marketing tricks people into thinking that's ok.. would you feel ok if you walked into a McDonalds and the billed you $200 for a big mac and they rung the guy next to you for $6 ? are you going to argue yours has the organic thousand island sauce ? maybe you could but I bet you they taste 98% the same.. is those amps you speak of here that much better than a Luxman 900u @ $15k ? anyway ... I have a can of soda, outer been sterilized, and comes with a straw.. $250.. PM me |
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@fuzztone @ lancelock I consider getting Zotl Z10e reference 10-watt electrostatic headphone amp for my Stax 009s headphone next year. |
@shkong78 You're best off choosing the most transparent amp you can afford -- otherwise you're not benefiting from that plasma tweeter. In my listening room, 48 Watts SET is enough to drive my Lansche speaker ( oficial eff 99db/w, but I guess 95db/w)Interesting. The Lansche I heard (a 3-way with 3 front firing drivers) began to sing only after we connected +60W class A (SS) to it. If you're getting away with a 45W tube, I'd say stick with it! Otherwise, you need to search for amps that give you both power and transparency, i.e a major investment in money & time; at this level, we can offer only "possibilities" IMO. To return to your original choices, I haven't heard the big Berning; the big Jadis, however, are not it (outstanding though they may be). Regards |
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Hi, in 10 years (or 2) the Alfa will be on jack stands waiting for parts. the amps will still be playing. expensive/exceptional amplifiers are not a priority for all. it’s why we have automobile forums too.....where no one is whineing about how their Vega or Corrolla is ’good enough’ compared to their Porsche. being in the car business my whole life i do appreciate that. i did own a 16’ 911 CS2 for a couple of years. but a trophy car, driven 15 days a year, was much less enjoyable than my audio system which i listen to 30 hours a week (4-5 hours a day). you can and do 'live' with your hifi--music as much as you like. and it can be a constant companion. what hobby can be like that and life long too? |
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@petg60 i’m not suggesting you don’t have a right to express your opinion. but then others can disagree, or express feelings that you are simply dismissing a product based on your view on the legitimacy to spend the dollars on hifi. not on the merits of the product, or that you think there are better hifi products for the money. you don’t go on a Porsche forum, or Alfa forum, and dismiss those products simply because they are expensive. you would not consider that. why do it here? i’m just a guy with an opinion like you. |
hI, with all respect to op and to the rest of the posts i do not dismiss or snob or don't care but i would not buy an 80k amp and support it every year with so much money on tubes. I do not even have the space for it. On the other hand i believe its a dream for some and was for me in the past. I have the listening experience with Jadis (more) and Futterman h-3a . Today If i wished to go back to tubed power amplifiers i would consider buying a smaller Jadis or a Kondo or a Mactone. |
Interesting place. I contacted them months ago about their ATC SCM50 ASL powered speakers (still listed) and they had no interest whatsoever in moving on what appeared to be a high’ish price compared to what those speakers typically sell for used. At the time, I had the impression they were building inventory. The pictures and equipment on their store site look cool. |
@tablejockey Maybe the Jadis has over $10k in parts, maybe, but definitely not the Berning. (EDIT: I take back what I said, those Jadis amps are from 1997, they're worthless.) I suggest the OP contact the sellers & see if they will let you audition the equipment. Buying them blind without being able to return them is beyond silly. You might end up paying $80,000 for something that doesn’t sound any better than a $6,000 amplifier & you won’t be able to resell it for 1/8th of the price. $80k is Dan D’Agostino & Boulder money, which at the very least look to have parts worth money. |
The Jadis setup on the Skyfi video certainly scores in regards to bling which is part of what you pay for with luxury items like that. One must be very daring to buy gear like that without listening first. Probably a bit foolish. I will go out on a limb and predict those two amps sound very different. |
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Hi mikelavigne, Of all the various posters here you are the one who has actually heard the Berning amplifier. Not only that but you've heard it in 'your' audio system. You are very impressed with it. I do not doubt its excellence. The Dan'Agostino and Boulder amplifiers were mentioned as similarly priced components. I've heard amps from both brands but only under audio show conditions. Are you familiar enough with either to render an opinion as to how they compare to the Berning? Charles |
@charles1dad my listening experience with those 2 brand’s amps are pretty much at audio shows, and i like to various degrees, but don’t absolutely love, either. i think in the context of a good quality speaker system with modestly difficult load they are good choices, and can be the basis for a great system. neither are limiting. the OP spoke of wanting an appropriate amp for a high efficiency speaker, and also of his experience with his Silbatone SET and his previous Jadis. this IMHO precludes these two brands from being in the running for an appropriate fit for him. neither have the sort of tube like life, or minimalist, global feedback free circuit, that would get into the realm of his direction. but the Berning certainly does. it hits the nail on the head. i think my darTZeel, if we are talking solid state alternatives (which the OP did not bring up so neither did i till now), would be a ’fit’ in terms of musical character in alignment......or to be fair simply more in alignment if we are looking for solid state alternatives. maybe the dart 108 being more real world price points compared to my 468’s. i don’t see those others as alternatives to the Berning......but are both top quality choices seen in many very good systems. but rarely matched with a high efficiency speaker. if i were choosing between those two brands for someone coming from tubes, then the D’Agostino strikes me as closer, if that is your question. my path years ago, was from big No.33 Mark Levinson’s.......to 75 watt Tenor OTL’s......then to darTZeel solid state. that Tenor OTL is still my beacon of sonic reference for how music reproduction should be amplified. linear tubes! and that is my view of the darTZeel’s i have now, and how i view the Berning. |
The other thing I notice about Skyfi is they offer no warranty on the used stuff they sell once you receive it on good working order. Also they say they have a tech that checks everything before sale to make sure in good working order but do not seem to provide any repairs once sold. That would be a big no go for me especially for those big ticket items. Compare to a local shop near me that is similar but not nearly as upscale. Their specialty is service and repair. |
Mike, Thanks for your informed reply. I should have been more clear with my inquiry. I know based on my listening neither the Dan’Agostino or Boulder are what the OP is searching for. You characterized the no NFB/simple circuit/linear genre of tube amps very well. I was just curious on purely sonic grounds what you thought of the other two amps in light of your vast exposure.. Charles |
I thought it was just me with Skyfi I sent them a very polite message saying they were doing a big disservice by saying the Technics SL1200 MKII they were selling for a lot of money is the same as the Technics SL1200G which is a completely different turntable and a lot more money. I received a very smug reply saying ”excuse me for not knowing All about the Technics turntable. Next time I’ll consult with you first”. Then I got banned and couldn’t reply back. Their loss. |
Berning would be my choice if you have the appropriate speakers. To me speaker impedance trumps efficiency. If I were to buy a S.S. amp then the darTZeel would be on my short list, but there is no way in the more sublime aspects of reproduction that the dar is going to match the Berning. With higher impedance speakers, no amp type I have ever heard matches OTLs or David Berning's version of an OTL. |
@audition__audio Berning would be my choice if you have the appropriate speakers. To me speaker impedance trumps efficiency. If I were to buy a S.S. amp then the darTZeel would be on my short list, but there is no way in the more sublime aspects of reproduction that the dar is going to match the Berning. With higher impedance speakers, no amp type I have ever heard matches OTLs or David Berning’s version of an OTL. it’s not that simple. and i’m not qibbling that the OTL won’t have some nuance advantages over even the big darTZeel solid state on very high impedance speakers, but the ’not simple’ part is your choice of music and expectations for large scale music. small combo jazz, blues, and vocals would tilt toward the OTL, but rock, big band, large scale classical and electronic would tilt back toward the darts in a large scale system......like mine. and those very high impedance speakers just don’t cut it when the music gets really complicated. the superb aspects of those speakers becomes just ok to good when things really start cranking and wild. recently i not only had these OTL Berning’s in my system, but also the Lamm ML3 SET’s and big VAC 450 Statements. i enjoyed all those really fine tube amps. but my dart 458’s ran away and hid from all of those as the music scaled higher. then my 458’s got replaced by the new 468’s, with even more musicality and fluidity. and the advantages of those tube amps on the more intimate stuff was reduced further. i’m a guy who listens to lots of large scale classical in a large system. and nothing does that all around as well as the big darts to my ears. 45 minutes ago i was listening to the 45rpm reissue Mofi pressing of the ’Santana’ Lp, the cut ’Jingo’ at warp 9 on my big rig. this was an out-of-the-world musical experience with every molecule of my very large room energized. effortless, ease, matter-of-fact musical presentation without a sense of it being reproduced. just music. the Berning OTL no matter the speaker would not have been in the neighborhood of that experience. and to me it is essential. just my 2 cents, YMMV. |
The VAC Statement is I'm certain a fantastic amplifier. It's high power push pull tubes which go in a different as would the big Jadis amplifiers. The Berning and Lamm ML3 would definitely intrigue and interest me much more. Berning OTL versus the Lamm SET on appropriate speakers would be something quite special. This is what's best audio forum territory 😊. Charles |
i did start a WBF thread that ended up with 1200-1300 posts a couple of years ago about my experience with the ML3-VAC 450-Dart 458’s. lots of heavy breathing going on. all three superb amps and it was a privilidge having all three in room together for 4 months. my large room did not look so large with all those big chassis sitting there. then earlier about the Bernings. |
@shkong78 Just to be clear, the Berning is not an OTL. 'OTL' is an acronym for 'Output TransfomerLess'; thus refers to an amplifier with neither output transformers or solid state devices in the output section and the Berning has both (see the patent). It is however a brilliant amplifier (David is one of the top designers in high end audio IMO), and IMO its a no-brainer over the Jadis if you have speakers efficient enough as it sounds like you do. Now you might want to try a real OTL; This is the kind of tube amplifier that employs only tubes with no output transformer or semiconductors in order to drive the loudspeaker. Traditionally for the last 60 years OTLs have been the most transparent amplifiers made. They also work great on high efficiency loudspeakers (my speakers at home are 98dB). Rick had David design that amplifier specifically so Rick could market it exclusively (I've known Rick since way back when he was a salesman for 3M here in town). Its one of the better tube amps money can buy, but it has competition that is a lot less expensive- with your budget cheap enough you could afford both. IIRC the Berning amp also uses a specialty Elrog power tube that Rick is having made just for him. High end audio is all about intention rather than price :) |
@atmasphere Ralph, you are always too much of a gentleman to recommend your own products. I personally have seen Ralph give very honest opinions of how other products compare to his own. From what I know, the Atma-sphere amps are direct coupled and OTL. So I'll ask, Ralph, which of your Atma-sphere amps would you recommend to compete with the Berning at this level and what would be MSRP on that amp. Hopefully, no one will mind me asking this info.... I have no hat in this ring and will gain nothing from it. |