Which one to choose between two 80K$ tube amps?

completely depends on the speaker and room size. those amps are like apples and oranges. they are doing different things.

i had that specific ZOTL Berning 211/845 set of amps in my room over a weekend (Rick Brown, the guy with that ad, brought them) a few years back and did really like it. but not without reservations. my speakers are 97db, 7 ohm, so an easy load. but my room is very large and the amp i was comparing it to is my darTZeel 458 mono blocks. my dart monos command my large room with authority in a way the 60 watt Berning simply cannot, and also play in the same refinement realm as the Berning. so if i want ’everything’ then the Berning is not the ideal choice for me. OTOH my darts are twice the cost of the Berning.

i’ve heard the big JA800’s and they are big and bold, but are not in the same transparency league as the Berning. but they will command a large room with authority.

so horses for courses. both are true to their design intentions.

i’ll take my big darts over either for myself. i also would tend toward an OTL tube amp type sound over a big push pull like the Jadis. but OTL’s have limits.

if.....and this is a big IF.....your speakers and room can work with 60 OTL watts (not all tube watts are created equal)......then the Berning 211/845 is the real deal and one of the most transparent tube amps i’ve heard. it’s has top to bottom linearity rare in a tube amp.



i highly recommend it. it is on my short list of favorite tube amps. and Rick Brown is a good guy.

@petg60

i’m not suggesting you don’t have a right to express your opinion. but then others can disagree, or express feelings that you are simply dismissing a product based on your view on the legitimacy to spend the dollars on hifi. not on the merits of the product, or that you think there are better hifi products for the money.

you don’t go on a Porsche forum, or Alfa forum, and dismiss those products simply because they are expensive. you would not consider that.

why do it here?

i’m just a guy with an opinion like you.

Hi,
None, if i had this money i would buy an AR Giulia QV.

in 10 years (or 2) the Alfa will be on jack stands waiting for parts. the amps will still be playing.

expensive/exceptional amplifiers are not a priority for all. it’s why we have automobile forums too.....where no one is whineing about how their Vega or Corrolla is ’good enough’ compared to their Porsche.

being in the car business my whole life i do appreciate that. i did own a 16’ 911 CS2 for a couple of years. but a trophy car, driven 15 days a year, was much less enjoyable than my audio system which i listen to 30 hours a week (4-5 hours a day).

you can and do 'live' with your hifi--music as much as you like. and it can be a constant companion. what hobby can be like that and life long too? 

@charles1dad

The Dan’Agostino and Boulder amplifiers were mentioned as similarly priced components. I’ve heard amps from both brands but only under audio show conditions. Are you familiar enough with either to render an opinion as to how they compare to the Berning?

my listening experience with those 2 brand’s amps are pretty much at audio shows, and i like to various degrees, but don’t absolutely love, either. i think in the context of a good quality speaker system with modestly difficult load they are good choices, and can be the basis for a great system. neither are limiting.

the OP spoke of wanting an appropriate amp for a high efficiency speaker, and also of his experience with his Silbatone SET and his previous Jadis. this IMHO precludes these two brands from being in the running for an appropriate fit for him. neither have the sort of tube like life, or minimalist, global feedback free circuit, that would get into the realm of his direction. but the Berning certainly does. it hits the nail on the head. i think my darTZeel, if we are talking solid state alternatives (which the OP did not bring up so neither did i till now), would be a ’fit’ in terms of musical character in alignment......or to be fair simply more in alignment if we are looking for solid state alternatives. maybe the dart 108 being more real world price points compared to my 468’s.

i don’t see those others as alternatives to the Berning......but are both top quality choices seen in many very good systems. but rarely matched with a high efficiency speaker. if i were choosing between those two brands for someone coming from tubes, then the D’Agostino strikes me as closer, if that is your question.

my path years ago, was from big No.33 Mark Levinson’s.......to 75 watt Tenor OTL’s......then to darTZeel solid state. that Tenor OTL is still my beacon of sonic reference for how music reproduction should be amplified. linear tubes! and that is my view of the darTZeel’s i have now, and how i view the Berning.

@audition__audio

Berning would be my choice if you have the appropriate speakers. To me speaker impedance trumps efficiency. If I were to buy a S.S. amp then the darTZeel would be on my short list, but there is no way in the more sublime aspects of reproduction that the dar is going to match the Berning. With higher impedance speakers, no amp type I have ever heard matches OTLs or David Berning’s version of an OTL.

it’s not that simple. and i’m not qibbling that the OTL won’t have some nuance advantages over even the big darTZeel solid state on very high impedance speakers, but the ’not simple’ part is your choice of music and expectations for large scale music.

small combo jazz, blues, and vocals would tilt toward the OTL, but rock, big band, large scale classical and electronic would tilt back toward the darts in a large scale system......like mine. and those very high impedance speakers just don’t cut it when the music gets really complicated. the superb aspects of those speakers becomes just ok to good when things really start cranking and wild.

recently i not only had these OTL Berning’s in my system, but also the Lamm ML3 SET’s and big VAC 450 Statements. i enjoyed all those really fine tube amps. but my dart 458’s ran away and hid from all of those as the music scaled higher.

then my 458’s got replaced by the new 468’s, with even more musicality and fluidity. and the advantages of those tube amps on the more intimate stuff was reduced further.

i’m a guy who listens to lots of large scale classical in a large system. and nothing does that all around as well as the big darts to my ears.

45 minutes ago i was listening to the 45rpm reissue Mofi pressing of the ’Santana’ Lp, the cut ’Jingo’ at warp 9 on my big rig. this was an out-of-the-world musical experience with every molecule of my very large room energized. effortless, ease, matter-of-fact musical presentation without a sense of it being reproduced. just music.

the Berning OTL no matter the speaker would not have been in the neighborhood of that experience. and to me it is essential. just my 2 cents, YMMV.

i did start a WBF thread that ended up with 1200-1300 posts a couple of years ago about my experience with the ML3-VAC 450-Dart 458’s. lots of heavy breathing going on.

all three superb amps and it was a privilidge having all three in room together for 4 months. my large room did not look so large with all those big chassis sitting there.

then earlier about the Bernings.

Avantgarde Trios with basshorns can’t do this? or the big Cessaros? Not sure I agree with you here.

I think your speakers are simply harder to drive in a large room than one thinks.

depends on one’s expectations for large scale, complicated, reproduced music.

i’m not saying you are limited in musical choices with those very high efficiency speakers, only that those very large scale recordings are not the strength of those type speakers. whereas it is the strength of large dynamic cone speakers. it’s still not easy to accomplish.

the only performance limitation in my room is the limits of SPL’s on the capacity of the human senses. the system exceeds those by a good margin without losing it’s grip.

Western Electric Audio Porn.....if you are into that sort of thing.

and some definitely are. i've not personally been bitten by this bug....yet.

http://www.silbatoneacoustics.com/collection.html

http://www.silbatoneacoustics.com/labsystems.html