Which integrated amp for better musicality - Parasound Hint vs Primaluna vs ???
I've been having a blast looking up threads and doing some research but my dilemma is this - I want to get more enjoyment out of my music (don't we all). My Anthem and Oppo setup honestly sound great but I can't help but think that maybe I am missing out. I am thinking of upgrading some of my gear by either adding an integrated amp or separates. I'd love to hear some recommendations. Based on some reading, I am considering:
1. Parasound Halo Integrated 6 2. Primaluna Dialogue Premium or Premium HP
My current setup is as follows:
Oppo 105D Anthem MRX 510 AVR Ascend Acoustic Sierra RAAL Towers and Horizon Center
Any recommendations or thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
I have not heard the Naim. The McIntosh integrateds will have the typical "Mac" sound. The McIntosh will have slightly mild/laid-back midrange and midbass. The sound is excellent, don't get me wrong, but it is not a resolution monster like your Anthem. I think the Primaluna will have more resolution and attack/detail than the McIntosh, but it will not have the power. The McIntosh is not nearly as warm as the Parasound, but not as fast/detailed as the Anthem/Primaluna. ---- In a comparison, the Parasound will have excellent "slam" in the midbass and midrange, but it will have rolled-off highs. The McIntosh will have pretty good resolution in the highs, but slightly rolled off midrange (best I can describe it). Both will have good bass authority.
Interesting, thanks @auxinput I only heard the MA8900 in the store once with a pair of Sonus Fabers and it was excellent but almost a bit bright. Could have been anything from the room setup to the speakers though. I was impressed but not exactly wow'd if that makes sense.
I'm not worried about power. My speaker specs are here (http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/speakers/SRT/srtspecs.html) but I also do not play at extreme volumes. I'm not worried about power output from the Primaluna or the McIntosh. I think they would power my speakers fine there.
Agreed. Your speakers are not that "inefficient". The Primaluna will start to saturate and fall down around 15-25 watts (depending on tube choice and mode). If you want to turn it up and "rock out' to loud and/or bass heavy music, be aware that you'll want something that will push 40-80 watts CLEAN. --- I totally get your impression of "McIntosh" because it's the same as mine. It's nice, but too laid back for me. They did sound very excellent with Sonus Faber speakers, but I would definitely want something more. Listening to McIntosh amp with McIntosh speakers, it was so boring I was like "snooze".
Oh, somebody earlier recommended PSVANE tubes. I will also second that recommendation if you want to upgrade your preamp tubes if you get a Primaluna (or similar). I just helped a friend upgrade his JJ 12au7 tubes to PSVANE. The JJ were okay, but the PSVANE just had so much more resolution and detail -- and they really "sang". Overall, excellent upgrade!! This was the second time I have heard PSVANE "preamp tubes". I suspect the PSVANE amp tubes will have similar results. They are definitely expensive, but not as expensive as other boutique or NOS tubes.
helomech I have listened to all three Rogue integrateds at length. Why can't you respect another individuals opinion? I don't own a fully tubed integrated because I don't want one for my own personal reasons. I have listened to many tubed amps over 50 years. More than you know.
You said I "undermined" your opinion as though I’m not entitled to my own, as though I should’ve consulted you first. So who is the one not respecting opinions? I had made no personal reference to you or your opinion in my original post. In contrast, you responded to my post with a snarky comment insinuating that my opinion is bunk based on the claims of Rogue employees.
I don’t know about you, but I live in a country that has freedom of speech. Further, I’m fairly certain you’re not in charge of this forum, nor do I work for you. To say someone "undermined" your opinion shows you have a seriously demented view or your role here.
Anyway, you haven’t heard jack or you’d know the Pharaoh doesn’t sound anything like a decent tube amp and it’s not remotely in the same ball park.
My local dealer provided some fantastic customer service and gave me the LM 805ia to demo at home. Looking forward to listening to this amp extensively!
Primaluna amps have great mids but lack somewhat in the low and high frequencies. I feel that the Rogue Cronos Magnum II is a better amp. The Parasound Hint 6 is also excellent
Owning a Parasound HINT with Maggie’s I never found it to lack in the high end, it seems like a great all around performer especially at its price point. Never heard the Rogue but at least it is made inthe USA.
I think you should decide between tubes and transistors, then pick whatever seems like a good idea. I'm in the tube camp as they sound more musical, and music is what I use my rig for (except for sometimes listening to Harry Shearer's show)...a great tube amp is every bit as snappy and "fast" as one could want, and SS amps often note that they're designed to sound like tubes...SS amps don't require buying tubes so they have that going for them, but, with the possible exception of Nelson Pass' recent SIT based amps, transistors generally aren't so tube-like as hey...they're not tubes. It's all about that pesky harmonic content issue, and that bears consideration. There are obviously plenty of choices out there from either camp, but one clear difference is you can swap tubes out as a taste decision, but rare is the audio freak who swaps transistors.
Really your decision to buy a solid state amp or tubes should depend on your speakers. I have not heard your speakers but they are well regarded. Some speakers shine with tube amplification,others not so much
Brighter speakers definitely work well with a tube amp.
The myth that tube amps are somewhat tonally "darker" is nonsense, although some may be more than others by design, not necessarily due to tubes being in the mix.
I have been very happy with my Primaluna. I have the HP and have had it for about two years. It's fantastic. Before that I had a Dialogue One for four years. I was driving B&W 803s with the HP, and it worked very well, even given that they can be hard to drive.
One thought... you may not need the HP. The Dialogue Premium has tons of power too, and while I haven't evaluated them side by side, I've heard that the Premium may be just slightly better with finesse than the HP. I think you'd be happy with either. Keep in mind the Premium has 4 fewer tubes to buy when you want to upgrade to the KT150s. Because you will! :-)
@soundermn I look forward to trying out the Primaluna. Very curious to see how it matches up against the LM. Great to hear another good review for the piece I'm eyeing. It sounds like you changed to the KT150's - do you think it is a must?
@jamesvail Having just tried the speakers with the LM, I can say it sounds fantastic. They were also great with the solid state AVR but this tube makes them shine. Very happy with this experiment.
I would try the Rogue Sphinx V2 as well, For the money it is a great amp I have gone the all tube route, All tube pre and all tube amps that cost several time more and this integrated holds up very well Better in some regards better, Tighter bottom end and more extended in the frequencies. I never thought I would say that as I have been a all tube guy for many years, It was time for a change and it was a good choice for me
Sorry my post appeared multiple times. I had some odd glitch with AGon.
Are the KT150s a must? No. The stock EL34s are really nice. They have the wonderful midrange, and even the highs and lows are pretty nice. I had KT120s for a while, and they are pretty nice too, but they have an upper midrange glare that I didn't like. They added more powerful bass and crisp highs. The KT150s are the perfect balance between those tubes, and there is no hint of that KT120 glare. Is it a must? No. But, you know you will eventually try them! :-)
The idea that I could run out of power with the Premium is why I went with the HP. It has plenty of power, and I'm convinced the Premium would too. I don't have the sense of it running out of power, or "saturate" unless it's really loud, and I'd say it definitely has "slam". We rock out to it all the time.
Of your other choices, the only one I know is the Rogue. I think that it's good, but not in the same league with the PL. Build quality is good, but PL is excellent. The Rogue has a nice sound, but I find it a little edgy or glarey at times, at least by comparison. The PL sounds more refined to me, and I think it will last much longer without issues.
The Line Magnetic is one I'd like to check out. I have heard good things, and based on what I've read, i think it would be very close in performance to the PL... meaning better or worse by only a small margin. I wouldn't buy the ARC because they seem to be finicky with tubes and settings, and if a tube goes south, your amp may have to go back to Plymouth, MN for repair. That seems to be a common problem, although they sound fantastic, based on demos I have heard at the dealer.
When I was deciding what to buy, I noticed that PL is rarely for sale used. Right now, there are 6 Rogue amps for sale right here for half of retail, but only one PL set (Preamp and amp), listed at about 65% of retail. I figured that people who buy them keep them, plus they retain their value - and that's part of the reason I picked PL.
I'm running the PrimaLuna HP Monos with KT150s and Brimars into Wilson Audio Sabrinas. With the added power of the 150s and having the monoblocks, I run in Triode mode most, well ALL of the time. I am thrilled with the amount of bass, the life like accuracy and the pinpoint 3D soundstage appearing well behind the speakers. Could not be happier.
Audio Refinement complete integrated used. I use their separates and sounded way more tube like than a Rogue Cronos Magnum. Remote and known for that great YBA warm blissful sound.
For SS look into Musical Fidelity M6si. Dual mono build 200wpc with phono section, Home theater ByPass and built in DAC (starting point - recommend stand alone DAC). Also has one set of Balanced input. Musical and can drive almost any speakers even power hungry ones. Good soundstage, depth and clean bass. Had M6i with Shunyata Black Mamba PC and the sound was incredible. I added 3 years later a REL T7 sub (combined with HT) and took it over the top increasing the natural sound of piano on recordings (most noticeable example). New for $3000 and used for less than $2000. Only reason I sold was to switch to tubes and separates - AR pre and amp.
So after 2 nights with the Line Magnetic 805ia, I have come away very impressed. The speakers just sing and have reacted very well to this heavy, heavy (42kg) addition to the system. Very musical and full of vibrance/life - especially noticeable for vocal heavy music or jazz (sax, piano, symbols). Clarity has not been lost and the notes are full rather than feeling any semblance of thin. Plenty of power to drive my speaker setup as well. Leaves nothing to be desired, really. Price is something that I have to consider but it is not too far off the Primaluna pricing if I get the HP.
I'm going to test the Primaluna HP at home and compare it to the 805ia. I'll make a choice after that.
In the meantime, I got a PS Audio Directstream Junior to use as a DAC and streamer going forward. Can't wait to hear it!
You should have to try and famous Beyond Frontiers Audio Hybrid integrated amplifier Tulip model. You will be awarded with beautiful sound, as design is input tube gain stage without any capacitors and coupling audio transformers in a signal path and output is with bipolar transistors able to drive any loudspeaker to their best . Hence no phase shift and frequency roll-off. Amazing 3D stage and coherency, natural dynamics and color of voices and instruments. Search the google for beyond frontiers audio, BFA is my favorite pick.
I always wanted a PrimaLuna Dialogue HP integrated but bought a $20k solid state integrated a year and a half ago. That unit was in for a repair two months ago so I bought a PrimaLuna HP Dialogue to get me through the 2 months. I was impressed, especially with the bass, power & musicality of the PL. Now my amp is back and I put the PrimaLuna with my second system. Even though my main system is crazy amazing, I keep going back to my second system with the PrimaLuna. It is a keeper. I prefer it over the last three integrated amps I had in my system which were: Pass Labs Int-250, T+A 2500R (really nice, but more than twice the price of the PL) and an Arcam A49). The PL has more bass than my main amp. It drove my Wilson Audio Alexia’s very well and it now drives my Wilson Audio Watt Puppy 7’s in my back system very well. The PrimaLuna is highly recommended.
@freesole I owned both brands, the Primaluna Dialogue Premium integrated and Line Magnetic LM518ia integrated as well as the LM508ia integrated. I never owned Parasound, so can't compare. From my experience, I prefer the Line Magnetic. I happen to have recorded sound from both amps
Thanks for the youtube videos. I think the Primaluna has more attack, detail and sweetness. However, closer listening, the Line Magnetic does not have as much attack/detail and it dryer sounding in comparison, but it has a more natural and real resonance to the voices/instruments. This could all be tube combinations though. Based only on this and for sound quality purposes only (not for power), I would probably get the Line Magnetic and see about putting in PSVANE preamp and driver tubes. The 508 is more powerful at 48 watts.
I find it interesting that Rogue ALWAYS recommends Mullards . I have a Rogue pre and prefer Telefunkens , Seimens and Amperex over Mullards . Even RCA over Mullard . They recommend Mullard for driver upgrades in their power amps too . I loaned my buddy Telefunkens for his M180’s , WOW ! For power tubes the Mullards and GEC’s Rock ! For this post , the Primaluna would sound the best IMHO. But you’ll be changing tubes for sound and eventually wear . Plus you’re dealing with heat and dust buildup. If you try some DAC’s , you’ll hear an improvement too . I have an Oppo 105 and my Schiit Yiggy is better sounding . But I would jump in full price and get a DAC later . If you get the Primaluna from Upscale negotiate a tube upgrade. Happy Hunting , Mike.
Please take a look at Raven Audio based out of Texas. The owner is Dave Thomson. Give him a call and chat about his lineup. I own the higher end Integrated and it is awesome. He has some of the oldest and finest tubes out there. And they are all showpieces.
An observation on the Line Magnetics... they seem to deliver a lot of power. For example the LM=150iA is rated for 100 wpc with 2x KT150 per channel. This is driving the tubes a lot harder than the Primaluna. It may sound wonderful, even better than the PL. But, I am thinking it may be harder on tubes, thus requiring more frequent replacement of tubes.
The PL delivers 96 wpc with 4x KT150 per channel, so it is driving the tubes at a lower level. Theoretically this would extend tube life.
After trying out the LM 805ia for about a week, I returned it (since I was only borrowing it) and I now have the Primaluna Dialogue Premium HP. It sounded great out of the box but without the clarity and sparkle that the 805ia. We are not talking world's apart but there is a slight difference. Still, the Primaluna is only hours old so far so I suspect there is a bit of a burn in period. I'll reserve judgement until after 100 hours or so.
I have the Primaluna Premium HP integrated - very musical especially with a turntable. It takes a number of hours/weeks of breaking in so give it plenty of time to come into its own. You can't judge what it is capable of the first few weeks as it breaks in. It responds to varying cables so I found I got the most from the components after finding cables that interfaced well with my equipment. I am happy with the stock tubes.
Do yourself a favor and bring home a Hegel h360 to demo, I was using an anthem int then went to a parasound a21 with a krell class a pre and finally the hegel brought what I call the there factor to my speakers at the time the revel salon1 and since have used them to drive VA beethovens and salon2's and remain impressed. you can find them used for as little as $3500.
To the OP- You will get many different answers from many different people, all with their own tastes and preferences. I have a Line Magnetic amp and chose it over Primaluna and Rogue after listening to the three. I like the sound of the LM Audio and the fact that the company based many of it’s designs from the old Western Electric audio amps. To be sure, as was noted from another poster, one should match these amps to speakers easier to drive. I have Vandersteens and the combo is sweet. I also have a Parasound Halo A21 driving some Maggie’s and I think these two amps are different in the way they match up to speakers. John Curl designed amps are very, very good with the right speakers.
I'm a little late to the party and a bit confused. When I look at some of the equipment recommended in this thread, such as the PrmaLuna, put out 50 or fewer watts per channel. When I read reviews of some speakers, I notice some state they prefer 100 + watts. How do I interpret the apparent disparity of quality amps low output and quality speakers needing more?
@cakyol if only - the Int-250 is over $10k :) I'd rather spend that money (at least for now) on a new set of speakers. I would love to have a listen of the Pass Labs in the future though.
I think that you will find the Prima Luna excellent on tone color but lacking in imaging, lowest bass and dynamics. Given the 92db efficiency of your speakers and that Pass is too expensive, if your room is not large a First Watt amplifier may be your best candidate
I have a Primaluna Dialogue One, which is an older version of the Dialogue Premium (not HP), so it's a notch down, but above their Prologue line. I'm using it with Salk Song3's (RAAL tweeter like your Ascends) and an Exogal Comet dac. I wanted the PS Audio Directstream Jr., but got such a good deal on the Exogal I couldn't pass it up.
I absolutely love the sound I'm getting from my system. I can't say anything about the Parasound or Line Magnetic products as I haven't heard them. However, once I went to a tube amp I haven't heard a solid state system that I love. I'd like to hear Line Magnetic and some other tube products, but I love how simple the Primaluna is, and I think the look of it is great as some tube products look like mad scientist science fair garage workshop creations -- which I like, but my wife not so much. She does like the PL though.
I'm not sure why people say they don't have a lot of bass slam and dynamics because I get better slam and dynamics with my PL and EL-34 tubes than with a solid state amps ranging from 80-200 wpc that I've tried -- at normal volumes. Yes, the solid state amps hold their composure better at over 95db, but I never listen that loud. The combo of the tube "texture" (likely even harmonic distortion) and the delicate, airy RAAL tweeter is an amazing combo. Its intoxicating at times for me.
The past few months I've been experimenting with different tubes. The stock PL EL-34's are pretty good. Tons of bass, maybe a touch bloated, but when its winter and I want some really lush warm sound they are great. I also have some current production Mullard EL-34's which also sound amazing and tighten up the bass a bit. My overall favorite is the Gold Lion KT-88's, which to me are almost a perfect blend of the tube texture while getting fantastic bass slam and dynamics. I had KT120's and thought they just sounded thin, even after 200 hours, and too solid state like for me. Everytime I put them in, with my Salks, I feel like I lost the tube sound so I just sold them. I just put in some Shuagang Black Treasure 6ca7-z tubes last week. So far so good. They might dethrone the Gold Lions as my favorite all around tube but they need a lot more play time. I also replaced the 12au7 and 12ax7 driver tubes for all Gold Lion and that made a big improvement in soundstage and imaging. That would be the first move I'd make in upgrading tubes.
I love how I can adjust the sound of my system with different tubes and switching between ultralinear and triode modes on the fly. I demo'd the Dialogue HP at a local dealer a few weeks ago and was impressed but not enough to upgrade from my Dialogue One right now.
Bottom line is there are so many great options and really this shouldn't be a comparison of one product "beating" another. It's really about which you prefer in your system with your ears in your room with your music. Enjoy the journey, it's part of the fun.
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