Plenty of younger audiophiles out there. Not sure why you’re not meeting them. I chat with plenty of them when I am out and about. I also have a young cousin and two nieces, all in there mid-20s who have good systems. When I was there age, I was the only one in my family with any interest in MUSIC, much less EQUIPMENT. So, a three-fold increase in audiophiles in one generation sounds pretty optimistic to me.
Where are the young audiophiles?
I find it alarming that 95% of all audiophiles are seniors.According to a consultant at my local HI-FI store,young people don't seem interested in high-end equipment.They listen to music on their phone.Sooner or later, all the great neighborhood HI-FI stores will not be able to remain open. Kind of sad,don't you think?
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When I was young, living in Hamburg NJ, a small rural community, I was the only audiophile that I knew personally. When I lived in NYC (for 45 years), I knew of two other audiophiles. Today, in my neck of the woods here in Newburgh NY in the Hudson Valley, I know of two other audiophiles. Anecdotal evidence for what it is worth. My daughter, aged 38, a professional musician, is finally interested in audio and vinyl, but because it’s hip. She’s consulting me on what to buy, and all the things she picks are because “the rad DJs use it!” 🙄 |
All about demographics and disposable income. And a lot has to do with the fact that a phone and earbuds is perfectly OK to most of them. As they get older and have more money to spend, some of those might decide to see if they can get the music they love to sound 'better'. And then, a lot of people don't like 'audiophile' sound - they'd rather have teeth-rattling bass with lots of volume than something more accurate. |
The neighborhood hifi stores aren't going to close....they already have. You have a Best Buy Magnolia in a good demographic region and maybe some home theater focused stores. The Best Buy stuff is expensive and since it is corporate, there are no deals there. As an example, in the 80's and early 90's there were probably 20 mid to high end audio stores in and immediately around Philadelphia. Now there are 2 in Philly and 3 or 4 outside. That's a 75% reduction. At those stores, it was possible to speak with someone who knew what they were talking about usually and get a system for what seemed like peanuts today, but if you account for inflation, aside from the ultra high end, the prices are about the same or less, and if you know what you are doing, can actually get a very nice used system for much less with the internet's help. Back then, the better stores sold audiophile records which supplemented their sales and kept people coming in the door. Now they're Apple stores. |
I'm 51 and didn't really start with this stuff until my early 30s. I remember very clearly thinking to myself now that you have some extra cash what is it you really like to do? The answer was listening to music, so I found a dearly nearby and grabbed a nice little starter system. About a year later I found Audiogon the rest is history. I do think the "next generation" is out there as said above there aren't a lot of them but there aren't a lot of us either. |
As a relatively young (mid 30s) audiophile, I can tell you guys the snobbery (“my first $50K system...”) doesn’t help to encourage young folk to enter the hobby. I have about $20K worth of gear in my current chain (and about $10K of other gear in a closet that I can swap out when the urge strikes) that was assembled over years of trial and error and extensive in-home auditions. The funny thing is, my system comes within a stone’s throw of some six-figure systems I’ve experienced (and bettering them in some areas). The reality is that many of you old guards are not getting the performance you think you’re buying. I’ve seen a lot of expensive gear crammed up against walls in untreated rooms. Many buying “high-end” five and six-figure components would benefit from trading some of their money for greater knowledge/experience. |
That's for sure. Also a lot of the people in stores are extremely elitist snobs who assiduously cultivate an air of superiority. Yet when you talk to one- if indeed you can get one to deign to talk to you, a lowly serf not even with an appointment to spend one hundred large in the next ten minutes - you will quickly come to realize they know zip about audio. Products, yes. Sales, definitely. But audio? As if! The truth is one of the best most impressive systems I ever heard was one I built for $1200 for my father in law. The bookshelf speakers intended for his entertainment center were put on makeshift stands a foot or so out from the side wall in my listening room to burn in. Went 2 whole weeks never even turning my system on, this little one was so much fun! Another time, a friend had me over for dinner. When he heard I was into audio he was proud to show off his great Sansui system. Had me sit down, played me some music. Good music, always enjoy that no matter what. Truly enjoyable experience. You know it is fun to visit, but it is also a bit of effort all the paying attention, coming up with witty rejoinders, being careful not to faux the pas. Was so nice to sit and truly relax with some tunes. Later when he comes over, goes to see mine, eyes wide as saucers just walking in the room. WTF? Tubes?!? Looks behind- WTF those cables? Not lamp cord?! On and on. Month later this guy is at the same dealer buying all the same stuff I have only separates not integrated, everything has to be a step up. So I think the snob angle is less to do with being an audiophile and more to just your natural personality. He was like that with his Porsche too. Not all of us are, I hasten to add. |
I'm not worried about the future of high end audio. This is a golden age of audio for me, far more choices of equipment , music, and accessibility to that music; what a time to be a young, budding audiophile! Back when I was building my first systems you were limited to purchasing mostly new equipment through audio dealers. Used equipment difficult to locate, knowledge difficult to come by, so much great music living in obscurity. I don't miss the days of having to drive around to dealers doing ridiculous A/B demonstrations and paying too much for mediocre equipment. So much great music living in obscurity as FM radio and their lame format liabilities controlling what you could listen to. I don't let nostalgia delude my perceptions of the past, it really wasn't as good as some lead you to believe. Many younger listeners are starting with headphones, as their wealth accumulates many will move to loudspeakers and more complex and expensive components. Today's budding audiophile has a plethora of equipment choices; new and used equipment can be purchased with a few clicks on computer or smartphone. Steaming music sound quality continually improving, many forums from which to gain knowledge. The young audiophiles I know are extremely happy with all their choices, and looking forward to continually upgrading their equipment. Nope the most golden of audio golden ages is yet to come, high quality sound will be available to the masses, it will no longer only belong to a fortunate few. If this is true, I wonder if we can even have an exclusive club of people calling themselves audiophiles? Is there some point in the evolution of sound quality when no more gains are to be had? |
The reality is that many of you old guards are not getting the performance you think you’re buying. I’ve seen a lot of expensive gear crammed up against walls in untreated rooms. Many buying “high-end” five and six-figure components would benefit from trading some of their money for greater knowledge/experience.My basic system is 500 bucks all in all... It is one of the best i listen to.... And there is better system than mine here in audiogon all over the place.... But it is way better for your purse and creativity to own one of the best audio system in the ratio S.Q. /price than own the best one in audiogon... Dont listen those who boast about their gear.... Read about acoustic..... Because no one listen to his amplifier and speakers but to his room.... Then any young without money must listen this advice: read about acoustic.... take care of vibrations and learn how to decrease the electrical noise floor... No need of money to create hi-fi..... The optimal experience is enough, let the " best" experience to those who chase the moon....It is less costly.... 😊 |
There are alot of young people interested in audio.But I feel most like to just download what they want to hear.Most likely they listen on ear phones or buds.True they like gaming instead of collecting vinyl.I think this is the end for the average human. I'm another 69 year old who graduated in 1969. |
@sns ...”This is a golden age of audio for me, far more choices of equipment , music, and accessibility to that music; what a time to be a young, budding audiophile! ” Yes. The level of performance per dollar has never been higher, and the cost of music (streaming) is virtually free. I used to have to shell out $20 / album. Now streaming can be done at greater than Red book CD SQ. It is a golden age. |
Where are the young audiophiles ? Are you serious , just about every unit is almost 10 Grand ! Young people rather spend half there months salary on a Alpha Romero or that 700 HP. Mustang .Or a M 3 BMW . ""BUT"" there are quality units at a some what affordable price . You have to purchase them before the dealers jack the price up 25 % . You can buy a great pair of speakers for 3 Grand . Focal, Paradigm ,Revel, and Fyne |
I am 63 now. I caught the audio bug in undergrad, as I had a friend working at a high end Audio store that sold McIntosh, Audio Research, the high end stuff of the day. He would let me bring a record to the Store after hours...what a difference from my system that I was so proud of (Pioneer Receiver, Gerrard tt, Advent 3 Speakers). I couldn’t start indulging in Audio until my late forties, because of Graduate School, children, mortgage. Now with retirement looming I am contemplating how best to downsize and squirrel away my acorns, as inflation seems to lurking. As others have indicated there seem to be some young ones interested in good sound, and the headphone data seem to show that. I think audiophilia is valued in Asia, and it is interesting that some of the posters here have indicated that cities that have a large Asian presence have some nascent retail activity. Back in the day there was a definite progression in retail activity. Shops that catered to the likes of me were the bottom rung. Then there were the stores that had the mid Fi stuff, and then the high Enders. The current retail scene in the Chicago suburbs has the yawning gap between entry level stuff and expensive high end. No place to hang out and listen to stuff that might be one rung higher than what you thought your limit was, tempting you to find a way to stretch the budget, discover new levels of joy that keep you wanting to repeat the process. It’s more like having to choose a wine and the choices are Morgan David or an expensive bottle of Burgandy. |
I got hooked as a senior in HS. Working my butt off to buy my first system I bought marantz, dual and AR. Next was McIntosh, Empire and Maggie’s. Raising kids took priority over my sound system but I never lost the love of good music and hi fidelity. Target is selling vinyl records again and Steve G posted pics of systems of 30 and younger crowd. Disposable income is a big factor, no question about it. My sons now benefit from my hand me down audio equipment. There’s probably more young audio fans than we realize but how many can afford 10K + systems? |
If you can't afford to buy an amplifier and you like tube gear you can build your own, especially if you choose SET amps because of the simplicity of design. You can use better components: polypropylene power supply capacitors instead of electrolytic, components rated at two or three times the current they will carry, and for a minuscule fraction of the cost of a high end amp. There is a $350,000 tube amp that you can build with output transformers that easily match the performance of the "Lamborghini" $350,000 amp with between 1/2 and 1/2 the current rated before core saturation distortion in the one you build with transformers costing about $250 each channel. Getting a book on how to do it and studying it takes less time and concentration than it must take to earn $350,000. This should be part of the hobby. More difficult projects such as trying to build your own DAC will be less realistic. |
Every time you go into a stereo shop they are playing jazz or some audiophile recording. Play music that young people like on a system that makes that music sound better than they have ever heard before. Use social media and market products. Beats audio did a masterful job with this. Seems simple enough. |
I think most shops want their systems to pop... have the sound stick out. Certain jazz does that.. I mean can you really blame them for wanting high end systems to sound the best they can? Everyone interested, then turns to the music they like. Besides catering to the group most likely to have the money to buy something doesn’t hurt. A place that caters to instilling desire in a customer that can’t buy for 20 years is a bankrupt business. |
The is no too much correlation between money invested in audio and sound quality of the system. It is more depended from a persons' musical test, knowledge, experience, skills. Audio is not plug and play. You can spend a lot of money and get nothing good. Some very rich people buy super expensive audio same as exclusive furniture for prestige without understanding in audio subject. The best home systems I listened weren't most expensive systems. The same on audio show, best systems are not most expensive. In opposite some super expensive systems sound horrible. On other hand, if two people with the similar audiophile skills spend different amount of money the person who spend more have more opportunities to get a better sound. |
The is no too much correlation between money invested in audio and sound quality of the system. It is more depended from a persons' musical test, knowledge, experience, skills.Very right for me... thanks... My best to you... |
I’m nearly 38, have been into music and audio from a very young age (one of my first ever CDs, around the age of 9 or 10, was a 24K gold version of Pink Floyd’s Dark Side of The Moon… it wasn’t until many years later did I understand the significance of that particular “tech”). I’ve spent my entire adult career in high end audio and custom integration so I have a lot I could mention about this. But here are just a few observations: People have different priorities. Personally, I don’t buy the whole idea that one needs to be rich or have a lot of money to enjoy an excellent music playback system. When I was 16 working at McDonalds, then later at Rubio’s Baja Grill, I was putting money into my car - suspension intake, exhaust, engine drop, sway bars, body kits, etc. - I could have easily chosen to make a different decision and buy a motorcycle, or a custom surfboard, or a nice stereo system. I thought my little Aiwa shelf system at the time sounded just fine for my bedroom. Later, when working at Best Buy and living in my first apartment after moving out of my parent’s place and going to community college, I chose to purchase a big TV and video game consoles, along with a lot of car audio upgrades. I went through numerous head units (Sony, Kenwood, Pioneer - mostly because two were stolen, San Bernardino CA is not exactly always the best of neighborhoods), Cerwin Vega speakers, Pioneer speakers, MTX, etc. My point is that people have the money, and younger people do too, HiFi is just not important to them. When dumping money into car audio, I was also buying a lot of CDs and building my music collection. I would go on trips to LA with friends and we would spend hours in Amoeba records and other spots around LA. We would have nice meals at nice restaurants. These were all people I worked with at Best Buy, not making a ton of money, and it was there that I started learning about nicer stereo gear. Either way, we all were still spending money on stuff that we could have easily diverted into a stereo system. One of my friends at the time, who is a fairly proficient studio drummer at this point, had invested something like $5K into his custom Drum Workshop kit and Sabian cymbals (though I think he later switched to Paiste, or Zildjan? Not sure). I had a cheap, but decent enough sounding Sony HiFi by that point, which I had inherited from my roommate’s coworker. I knew about B&W, McIntosh, and even applied at the B&O store in South Coast Plaza at the time, but I had still yet to experience what a real HiFi can actually do. Which brings me to my next point. Having now been doing this for something like almost twenty years, I can honestly say there are only a small handful, maybe two handfuls? Let’s say somewhere in the realm of 10-15, actual domestic audio systems I’ve had the opportunity to listen to, which play music at any level even remotely beginning to approach a live performance. And I am not strictly speaking of volume levels, either. I’m talking about emotion and raw energy, which is nearly impossible to capture on a studio recording (so those who do I have a lot of respect for). Heck, I have a decent HiFi but I know exactly what I’m missing, and I know how to get there too. I should mention that I was an on-call audio engineer at The Crocodile Cafe in Seattle, which has a d&b Audiotechnik front of house rig with an Avad (used be a Yamaha M77) 48 channel mixer, and am quite familiar with the professional and recording side of the industry as well. I’ve worked with or at the very least am familiar with nearly every brand of “High End” domestic loudspeakers or electronics, and most of the stuff people buy for their homes simply cannot approach what a properly implemented professional audio system can deliver. So young people, who are into music, and frequent live music performances (as I did all through my entire adult life), when they walk into some “high street” boutique retailer with a crappy sounding HiFi that hasn’t been properly setup because the salespeople have been smoking too much crack and think that a $4K power cable is the “magic sauce” for their reference system and can’t stop gushing about it, simply look on in amazement, walk out the door, and go down to their local Urban Outfitters to purchase a Crosley
On this note it is not a surprise to me that another group in tandem with young people not being particularly into high performance audio are musicians themselves, which in large part is because any thing these HiFi retailers think sounds good, sounds like complete trash to most self respecting musicians who have often put an equal amount of time and money into assembling their instrument collection. When they hear some goopy sounding, muffled, “warm” system they immediately realize there isn’t a HiFi out there that is going to sound anything like the stage monitors they are used to having, or the things they are using in the studio to record with. To me it’s actually a lack of knowledge, as someone pointed out above, that is why younger people aren’t into audio and high performance, along with the elitist attitude possessed by many, many people in the “HiFi” audio industry. The failure of the older generation to properly share the knowledge and passion as to what makes a high performance system sound good in the first place has been my personal experience, and I’ve worked with people who are considered luminaries within the industry. When you witness people who have been doing this stuff for over thirty years pretend like the system they’ve managed to cobble together that costs more than what most people make in a year sounds any good, and then people pat them on the back and say “good job”, it leaves me completely baffled, and no wonder why a friend of mine told me once that she thought all the high end audio industry sounded like to her was a bunch of fronts for illicit activity (she is a musician herself). A huge one, that someone mentioned. Very few people I’ve met in the high end audio industry have good music taste, and they generally pick pretty crappy demo material. I mean, I love classical music, and jazz as well for that matter (in fact very much so) but some of the stuff people listen to sounds like it is being played by a soulless automaton, and not a human. I have electronic music that has more soul than some of that stuff. I mean, come on people, there is so much music out there just waiting to be discovered for the first time, or re-discovered, that doesn't sound like it was made by talentless hacks. I think it’s another case of there’s about 10-15 people I’ve met in the industry who actually like good music, and give a crap about what it is they are trying to share with the person they are sitting down in front of their demo system. Think about it for a sec. If I am someone who is wet under the ears, say a college age kid, with absolutely no prior reference to what it is I am about to experience, and the person has taken absolutely no time to evaluate what it is I might want to hear on that particular system, and instead plays me some music that sounds like it is being played by an anemic assembly of borderline robots, or like the by-gone days when the white drugs were plentiful and fueling the “creative” sides of studio musicians and engineers being paid way too much money, it’s likely that I’m going to walk out even more puzzled than before, because I didn’t hear anything I enjoy or like or even remotely appreciate. |
@ironlung sorry man sounds like you've been hanging out at some crappy dealers. There are good ones out there trust me. Case in point I called my dealer today got voicemail, decided to send an email instead. Got a reply about an hour later saying sorry they couldn't get to the phone earlier the store was packed with customers. I didn't ask anyones age but that seemed like a positive sign to me that the hobby is not totally dead. |
There are good dealers and bad dealers, like in any market. I have found and remained close to those that have an actual passion for high end audio. Typically I will interview the first person that I meet in a new store, access his knowledge and biases. If he is a trainee, I’ll figure out who the person with knowledge is. If it is a snobby place that just pushes expensive boxes, then I’ll listen to their systems, learn what I can, and not come back. . When I find an real audio shop and I will usually hit it off with the person. We recognize each other for people that have deep knowledge (now, when I was younger... I was serious in learning, not so much knowledge) Typically, it will be the store owner. We exchange ideas and observations. If he is good, I can describe my tastes an interests and he can proactively put together stuff I should like. I have had multiple relationships lasting 20 years or more. My current audio guy usually takes the afternoon off when he comes over to deliver something. The system we put together for me is also one he likes but can’t always put together in his showroom, so he’ll bring it over something new to my house and we’ll listen to it. He’ll leave it for a week or two if I like. |
I think audiophilia, the kind many here subscribe to would be considered by many younger to be elitist and a bit bizarre. It is not very inviting, nor inclusive and feels a bit like a strange club. Younger people these days tend to be more experienced oriented not thing oriented. Sharing your stereo on Instagram is not "cool" to them. Tighter housing also means less opportunity for the volume levels to enjoy. |
Elitist: “a person having, thought to have, or professing superior intellect or talent, power, wealth, or membership in the upper echelons of society.” Generally, audiophilia is a solitary pursuit, we tend to be loners. Certainly I can’t imagine anyone posting a photo of their system on Facebook and most don’t have an Instagram account. I liken us more to the short wave enthusiasts of the 1940’s - 60’s. . Interesting stereotype though, I’m flattered. My father called me stupid, I got C’s in high school... took seven years to get through college. But went back and got a Masters Degree and worked my way up to Director of Information Technology of large global companies... wow, I’m finally perceived to be a member of an elite group, cool. |
I have found that the under 40 folks just do not get excited about high end audio or the hobby as to many of them they consider it boring to sit down with the purpose of just listening. I have a nephew who is in his late 30’s, and while he likes my set up and thinks it sounds excellent, he is not into all the expense and time it takes to build a system. He does have a 70’s era receiver and turn table, but it’s not his hobby. As a kid I attribute my fondness to audio growing up in the 70’s with an uncle who had a huge Pioneer receiver, Teac R2R, plus a great turn table all going into a pair of Pioneer HPM 100’s. He played all sorts of music and to me I thought it was the most incredible stereo I had ever heard. Was it really an “audiophile” system? No, but at that time you had to seek out a place that carried the any of the high end brands that we all know. I remember going in a high end dealer with my father just to see what they had. It certainly didn’t look like any of the many stereo shops I had visited in the past. But I also remember the snobby attitude there. As far as high end dealers go today, I feel that good dealers offer something for everyone who is wanting to appreciate the finer gear. I live in Atlanta and the two dealers I have purchased most everything from are not in the least snobby and welcome first time buyers . While both places carry some stuff that goes into the 200-300k range, and have rooms set up for those, they also carry a ton of equipment for the folks who aspire to buy what they can afford with the intention of upgrading down the line. The cool thing is a lot of the brands that they offer as entry are still better and different than your average Best Buy, or even the Magnolia boutique. Plus, they are far more knowledgeable than the average salesperson because they are into the hobby as well. The thing I like the most is, they want you to bring in your own album’s & CD’s as well as handing you a iPad with Tidal or Qubuz so you can enjoy your music, not just what super audiophile pressing they are playing to show off the system. After the last 12 years since I got into higher end audio, I have to say, had it not been for these great shops, I would of been put off with the hobby as I could never just order a piece of gear on line without hearing it, and I don’t buy because of what reviews say. Great topic BTW. |
@jond As someone who has worked for and with some of the most "reputable" firms out there I have come to the conclusion that there are simply very, very few individuals, let alone dealers, who actually know what they are doing when it comes to this stuff. If you have found someone who does, and they are out there, stick with them and support what they do. However I would humbly suggest it's likely that you've found an individual, and not an entire dealer (unless they happen to be the business owner) that happens to give a crap about what they do, and you've had a good experience as a result. While I don't think the hobby is completely dead, my experience of the majority of the people involved in making the money and selling the products at the end of the day is that most of them have absolutely no real drive or passion when it comes to exposing more people to high quality music and film playback. I mean I've seen dealers tell manufacturers the reason they're not selling more product is because the manufacturer doesn't advertise enough or have enough reviews in publications. And people wonder why young people aren't interested in this category. If that is the attitude you have when you represent product lines that are capable of changing the lives of your clients, you're probably not going to bring in too many new clients or run into any new and challenging situations. |
@ironlung - sorry you are down on the industry, disillusioned and miserable. Most of the stores I see out there are exactly what you say you need to find; someone who knows what they are doing and gives a s**t. They are the owners of the typically higher end stores who might have an assistant or two, but the owners negotiate the prices. If those guys are what you say they are, they wouldn't be in business. Most of them have been around a LONG time, some 40+ years. They don't need the money anymore, and the ones that are gone from the business are the ones who weren't as passionate about it as their competitors. I don't know what you mean by an "entire dealer". The multi-location stereo chains are a rarity, other than Best Buy's Magnolia, which used to be a chain. They are more a home automation and video business/installation service that happens to carry audio, which takes up a lot of their space, and probably is a money loser. I think in all of metro Phila there is one multi store chain that I have never been in - they are lower end and focus a great deal on video and installations. Nobody there knows anything about a turntable, and I'd be scared to have them install a cartridge for me. Younger people don't have much money, and they were raised on iPhones and iPods. As they get older, they will spend more on audio, but most will not have the passion because they never really were interested growing up. There is however a growing group of hipsters that think turntables are cool. Hopefully, they can make some money and maybe will actually be interested in great sounding audio to keep the industry strong, not just the coolness factor because some demographic chasing talk show host has a turntable in the background on their set (the pompous hipster doofus wannabe Steve Colbert). I don't think anyone thinks being an audiophile is cool. |
Artists make their money now from touring, not selling media. It has changed the nature of the business. Look at what is playing on my turntable thread. I relatively small cross section of popular music. There were as a lot of awful music in the 60s, 70s, 80s, just like today. There is also some very good music today. I expect more 60+ year old are not looking for it. |
@ironlung @sokogear Excellent points, thank you both for posting. I would like to offer a counterpoint for the community to consider. Let me preface by saying that I admittedly work in the high end/luxury end of my industry (not audio video). I am fully aware that my observations are not remotely applicable to most areas or industries. Young people are not all poor barristas with $50k in student loans, get that out of your frame of reference for a moment. Certainly some are but each generation creates and makes its own kind of mistakes. If you know someone living in their parent’s basement please know there are quite a few others in that same age group who are buying and selling mortgage traunches in their own portfolio. The "clientele" I serve are very wealthy, mostly self made individuals. Think 8-12 figure (3 commas for those keeping score) net worth individuals ranging in age from 25-70. As a general rule, they don’t like clutter or disorganization, that is a common trait. Items they place in their homes must fit the decor so in most cases you wouldn’t find speakers like Magnepans, Sound Lab, Tekton, Tannoys nor Klipsch from a visual arts standpoint. Their interior designers have major input. I have seen plenty of Wilson Audio, some Tidal, a few Devore O series, etc. Custom colors abound in the more contemporary homes or unobtrusive visually in both size and finish in the event the speakers are wood finished or the home is more traditional in decor. They are an active demographic (travels and fitness) and in every case, their main systems are in a room where many can listen. Other than someone’s office, I have never seen an elaborate listening room that wasn’t simply an elaborate room where people (more than one LOL) could also listen to music. 99% of the time it is integrated with video.They pay people to pick and install and only occasionally would they venture into a store unless they were trying to contrast items to aid the decision. This group does flybys and they don’t post on internet forums. So, what kind of system would a 30 year old high net worth individual have? Typically all one brand of gear (that way there are no excuses about compatibility), neat and tidy, pleasing to the eye, able to close it off from view when not in use and its more than likely digital only and controllable completely from their iphone, ipad. They would also like if their friends can control it from their phones too. That’s a modern day jukebox. I’ve seen more than one person in this demo buy a 8 figure vacation home all cash, no contingencies, over the telephone having never set foot in it. Its just not alot of money to some people ESPECIALLY because many have made so much money so quickly that it isn’t real. Their time is priceless and further, they can make alot more money doing what they do well that its highly unlikely this will change. At the other end of the age and wealth demographic, I have a number of 25-35 year old co-workers who make a fine living, low to mid 6 figures, who are squeaky conservative with their money. Many came up in the aftermath of the recession and while many are big savers, many others have chosen not to be ostentatious as a rule in order to not make a scene. Others still are philanthropic and also have a wide array of interests. They may have a few $15-20k mountain bikes in their garage and a home theater in a box. So, next time you are sitting next to someone who looks an awful lot like the average lumberjack with a Subaru its just as likely you are sitting next to someone who has the financial means to do anything and they are doing exactly that. I would argue that the demographic in question aren’t too poor to afford the average system discussed on Audiogon, they could care less. They like good sound but want it packaged to fit them: decor friendly, space friendly, user friendly. This group could generally care less about a Porsche 911 and instead would prefer a Cayenne, a X5 or a FFRR...something that can easily carry their gear and their dog. I have one acquaintance who spent over $250k so that he could have the ultimate 1980 Toyota FJ40. Why? Because that’s what he would rather drive. Best to all but my advice is to not try to figure out why young people or any people do what they do. Its too wildly different today. The poor remain poor but there hasn’t been a time in the US economy since the gold and railroad booms of the 1800’s where wealth exploded like it has over the past 30 years. |
I would argue that the demographic in question aren’t too poor to afford the average system discussed on Audiogon, they could care less. They like good sound but want it packaged to fit them: decor friendly, space friendly, user friendly. This group could generally care less about a Porsche 911 and instead would prefer a Cayenne, a X5 or a FFRR...something that can easily carry their gear and their dog. I have one acquaintance who spent over $250k so that he could have the ultimate 1980 Toyota FJ40. Why? Because that’s what he would rather drive. **************************************** I believe you are correct. Most people on here I suspect have had good systems since their 30's. Maybe not everyone, but a lot of people. That is not occurring with todays 30 years olds and lots of them have money. The bottom end is poor, but the top end is doing well. They may not have the space, but their priorities are different. |
@ghasley - the market you are talking about Is something like the top .1% or smaller. Maybe a few of them care about audio, but will just ask someone to give them the best system for the room they have or have a room built for it. Also, not to nit pick, but I doubt you have any clients worth 12 (let alone 11) figures, unless you count Elon Musk, Warren Buffett or Jeff Bezos and Bill Gates (pre divorce) as clients. 11 figures would be $10+ billion, also a very, very small number - .00001% maybe. So you should probably say 8-10 figures, which means you serve some billionaires, which is still pretty impressive. Can’t even imagine what I’d do with that responsibility. |
@sokogear You are of course correct that the very top end of the range I shared is quite rare but I sheepishly stick by the range I listed. The range is the range. It wasn’t intended to initiate a discussion on whether they exist or not. I can understand that it might not seem reasonable. Doesnt seem real to me either. At the end of the day, I just happen to serve people of considerable means. I also clearly understand my role in my little ecosystem: I am the little white bird you see on top of the giant pile of elephant droppings so to speak. The mere fact that you listed some names also begs the question that not all immense wealth is listed or publicly available. Frankly, most in the demographic guard their privacy through a myriad of entities and LLC’s. The point I was trying to make was if a 22 year old who went from college into a rapidly growing wealth cycle and they wake up at 30 with a 7, 8 or 9 figure net worth over an 8 year period. They typically embraced audio along the way (because they entertain for business and social reasons) and upgraded along the way but in that demographic form factor, sound quality and aesthetics matter equally. Im not picking on our hobby but an entire system of 20 boxes laid out in grids with fat cables and monolithic speakers(unless they are interesting aesthetically, industrial designs) are nowhere to be seen. Nor is a room like that with a single chair rather than seating for a larger group. This is a group of influencers if they even allow publicity into their lives. I also pointed out younger co-workers of mine and their habits. It was just intended to point out that the industry has to change to meet the customer’s desires. |
@ghasley - Sounds like the old Bang and Olufson products would work for your clients....much more for the look than the sound, although they did have some fans that thought the sound was very good (me not among them). Also, not all audiophiles want their systems to look like physics labs, mainly because they are not in mancaves or hidden, they are like mine, in a den, where some electronics can be seen, but it can't look weird or completely out of place. I'm lucky I am able to have my speakers 3 feet from the wall :-) and they sound excellent outside of the one perfect sweet spot seat that is ideal to listen to. I thought US' wealthiest people were known - if there are indeed those worth >$100B that I didn't mention, I would be surprised, but I guess it is possible they can stay that far under the radar with lawyers, LLC's, and frontmen like you say. |
@sokogear B&O was certainly a function follows form company through the years and I agree with you regarding their sound quality. I will admit I had a B&O turntable in college anchored by a pretty mediocre receiver driving some old Frazier Seven speakers. It was the only turntable I could afford that didn't mistrack terribly when there was a rowdy get together LOL. Once again, wealth is worn differently by different people as we can all agree. You are somewhat correct that many high net worth individuals are listed in Forbes, et al and they may be easily identified while there are numerous others who may not. For example, when we see a company go public and they speak of the founder's 30% stake in the company now being worth billions, there is typically less fanfare assigned to those who funded the startup in the background. I have to tread carefully but for every face we see ringing the bell at the NYSE there are faces we will never see or hear about....they prefer it that way. Then, there are those who religiously avoid the public markets to avoid the accompanying public scrutiny. |
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wy-VTC33GaM Check out this interview, about the 7:40 mark it sort of speaks to the role that aesthetics play. |
Of course an architect cares most about aesthetics.....no surprise there. My philosophy is whatever sounds best unless it looks ridiculous or doesn't fit. I think that is true audio sickness, but some would say they don't care about ridiculous looks and if it doesn't fit, move it or make room or modify it! They may be the truest, sickest audiophiles - I'm not there, and am less like it than when I was in college. |
I doubt the vast majority of young or old audiophiles are purchasing and or researching their audio purchases through audio dealers. Nearly all the audiophiles I deal with at any level are diy their systems. Look at plethora of mid level audio available today, phone systems are where its at for young budding audiophiles. Perhaps they move up to loudspeaker system, perhaps not, time will tell. Audio dealers are obsolete for many of us these days. And then you have lossless streaming doing relatively good business these days, based on responses on this site it seems many older audiophiles reject streaming audio as high end. Younger budding audiophiles are hearing music with increasing higher fidelity and may buy in to better equipment in future. And to say new recordings are crap is total nonsense, yes, some are victims of loudness wars, but get away from the most popular, commercial recordings, tons of nicely recorded contemporary recordings. I have well over 2500 original vinyl and 3500 cd rips on my NAS, and tons of streams available to me, recording quality is all over the place with all sources. I reiterate this is the golden age of audio with even greater possibilities ahead. Younger generations have greater access to much better audio equipment and far more music than we did. As to whether they become card carrying audiophiles is not yet determined. How many of us older generation regularly sat down and listened intently to music, evaluating and critiquing sound quality. And then over time we hear some deficiencies, upgrade time, put on repeat ad nauseam. This is the definition of an audiophile, a small demographic then, likely small demographic in the future. |