When to Amp it Up?

More power better? If the first watt isn't any good why would you want 200 more of them?

Bi-amp? If the first amp isn't good enough don't add, replace.

Pique peak, then than, watt's the difference?

You seem to have a history of investing in complicated setups of highly marketed brands, and then not being thrilled with the resulting sound quality. Guessing that you've taken advice from lots of youtube and online reading and haven't had a chance to audition much at good dealers. If I'm totally in left field, I apologize.

If that's the case, maybe find a good local dealer or two if possible and find what really floats your boat and then move in that direction. 

The Innous is very nice; that should keep you happy for many years, especially with the recent software update. Cheers,

Spencer

If you want to upgrade look at Pass 350.8 a wonderful sounding amp from a great company.

Yeah @ebm , Pass is what my buddy is in love with and he can't say enough good things about them. @sbank not 100% off. I am a YouTube watcher, but auditioning and dealers aren't anywhere near 100+ miles from where I live, and pandemics don't help either. @millercarbon sage like about the first watt vs. 200 more, and if one won't do, why another 😉. I did get them used, but you're not a believer in mono amps and channel separation?

A good portion of my amp preoccupation is that I've now gotten components that I specifically wanted, after reading, videos and reviews, just like you said. I really like them, but the amp I got so early on when all I had was CA stuff that it was the novice first time purchase of all one brand items.

But now I'm looking into amps that I'm specifically interested in rather that brand familiar with.

Why/how do you all have the amps you have? What got you there?

@ja_kub_sz You can learn a lot about the what/why of amp selection, etc. by reading the comments on member's system pages. In my case, I have changed amps a number of times over the years based usually on the desire to get a better match with a particular speaker. Relocating into a different sized space usually was the prompt. 

In terms of selection, there's no substitute for listening. Local audio clubs are a great way to meet like-minded people whose systems you can listen to with hopefully, learning your preferences along the way. Not much help these days, though!

There's plenty of truth to "synergy" especially between amps and speakers. If you don't have the luxury of in person listening, it's important to read up on first hand experiences of owners of your speakers(current or desired) and get a grip on what users have gotten the most satisfaction from using them together. The easier route is to get those recommendations from a trustworthy dealer. A few who come immediately to mind are: 

• John Rutan at Audio Connection in Verona, NJ
• Duke LeJeune at AudioKinesis, who also makes speakers
• Eric Konisberg at BEK Hifi in Allentown, PA

They all tend to focus on brands with staying power, vs. just the "latest one-hit-wonders". I think that's a great thing, often ignored. Many hifi companies don't survive for a decade or longer. For service/parts, it's a consideration and will impact resale values as you trade up over time. Nobody ever lost a ton of money buying used Vandersteen or McIntosh and selling it a few years later. If you ever talk to a dealer about an amp or speakers and they don't seem concerned with the rest of your system, that's a red flag! 

In this hobby, the best values are often from small to mid-sized companies. Chances are pretty good(with a few exceptions) that if they ever did a TV commercial or everyone at your holiday table has heard of a brand, then it's probably not going to give you as much sound/$. 

Cheers,

Spencer

If it was me I'd be looking at a loudspeaker upgrade, your current amps can serve you one more upgrade. I'm curious about what preamp you are using? 

I bought a Latino VTA ST-70 amp to dabble with tubes. I wanted to see what all the fuss was about. That $1400 tube amp beat the britches off a much much higher cost SS amp that was well known w/good reviews. That 35wpc stayed in my system for 10-12 yrs. Then I got a Don Sachs Kootenay 120 @ 65wpc. It is based off Bob Latino's ST-120 but with all upgraded parts including 2 discreet power supplies. I bought it because Like you, I really liked my ST-70 sound. But I figured the upgraded parts would make a good difference in the quality of that sound. It did.

But I had a very good preamp also prior to getting a new amp. You haven't listed yours. This is a good reason to list your system on the systems page because it helps others to analyze your issues. That said, I've had amps from 35wpc to 800+wpc. The 35 wpc & 60wpc tubed sound best. In SS, a 45wpc shamed to other SS.High wattage is needed for PA's which you need to cover a parking lot or similar. Unless you have a difficult load, 60wpc is usually plenty enough to drive most speakers. Merry Christmas

Why/how do you all have the amps you have? What got you there?

I started young in the 1970's with a Kenwood integrated, then built a Dynaco ST400 power amp. Being a kid didn't really understand very well yet just how useless watts are. In fairness a lot of things back then made it harder to hear a lot of quality differences that with better speakers, cables, etc are easy to pick out today.

After college, head stuffed full of the usual blather I went looking for a better power amp. Read a ton of reviews and auditioned a slew of them before buying a McCormack DNA1. Then went looking for a good preamp, because well this is what they tell you, separates, etc etc yada yada. 

Until I heard a 60wpc Aronov tube integrated that was better in every way than the McCormack and cheaper too, way cheaper than buying a preamp, cables, etc. Separates are just hugely handicapped in reality. Seen it over and over many times since.

When the Aronov turned out to have some hidden reliability issue it started blowing fuses, and so transitioned to first a Jungson SS class A integrated (nightmare) and then Melody integrated, another KT88 tube integrated this one 50 watts.

At this point 30+ years of experience is telling me you don't need more than 60 watts (you do need speakers of at least 92dB sensitivity), tubes beat SS and integrated beats separates. 

So last year went looking to up my game and wound up buying a Raven Blackhawk. Easily the best sounding amp I have heard so far, another integrated, this time only 20W. More would be better but quality over quantity and besides you should hear how loud it can go with 98dB Tekton Moab. 

This brings up another thing learned over the years. Big companies can stay in business churning out so-so products making up the difference in advertising. Small companies however the product is their advertising and so must be not only high quality but high value as well. The best of the best it seems take this to the extreme by being sold direct. No wonder then I have gravitated to first Herron, then Tekton, Townshend, Raven. 

Not because they are tiny little companies selling direct. Because they make the best stuff I can afford to get my grubby little mitts on! 

Which brings me to Steve Deckert. Couple weeks ago put my name on the list for a Decware Zen Mystery Amp. 40 watts of end game tube power amp. 

And so it goes.

Did you hear the speakers prior to purchasing them? Just asking because it can be difficult to assess a system without an anchor component that you have  had some time with. For instance maybe it's not the amp but the speaker...

The current crop of Youtube guys are impressive in that they've build their businesses, but you won't likely get any useful advice until your knowledge is equal to or greater than theirs.  Not that hard to do.

@artemus_5  great points, thanks, I just use my integrated amp as a preamp Technics SU-R1000. I'll be honest my amp choices have only consisted of SS and escalating wpc due to liking the bump in sound while climbing the SS wpc ladder (100wpc, 150wpc, 300wpc now at 350wpc Bi-amped). So I figured more is better, and was considering getting harder to drive speakers later on.

@bjesien I heard the L100 classics, but not the 75's. Since they're a special version and bi-wired, I figured why not Bi-amp (I should Bi-amp them).

I like the YouTube videos, because its a starting point. I then read more reputable (or at least so I think) magazine sources and then hit internet forums and just go with what interests me.

@millercarbon Excellent story, and thank you! I'm nervous for the first time I hear good tubes and feel that'll be another rabbit hole to fall down. 100% see your point on small shop quality vs. big brand marketing. I'm certain your right about the margins. I have one peccadillo however, if I don't like how a piece of gear or a component looks I'll be hard pressed to buy it. Which does come up time to the with yet another subjective layer to my decision making.

Turntables are generally good enough to do just fine buying on looks. Anything else however and, good luck. The best value in speakers currently made are some of the least good looking, and if you want to try and buy amps based on how they look, well the best I can say is flip it around. Buy whatever sounds the best and take however it looks as small and relatively unimportant. Either that or plan on a lifetime of, "Here look at this picture of my system. Really wish it sounded as good as it looks, but I guess you can't have everything, eh?"

Here is something I've come to realize. What sounded good 10 years ago hasn't changed a bit. But my ears probably did. IF it sounded great 10 years ago and the gear you use dosen't wear out, what happened?

That's right MY ears have changed. The only thing that wears in my system now is surrounds for woofers and subs and valves in the valve gear..  The gear I used 35 years ago is just as good as the gear I use today, the only difference between then and now.. Everything has a remote. I have a remote for the remotes, I think..

Regards

I KNOW I have a remote for the robot to.  I know I do, somewhere..

Have you tried bridging your current amps as opposed to running them bi-amped? I'm not sure if it will be better or worse but given they are rated 4 ohm stable while bridged it is worth a shot. 500 watts 8 ohm and 800 watts at 4 ohm in bridged are some serious numbers. Especially given your speakers are rated at 90db.

For the record I have a JC5 and absolutely love it. It really brought my Revel F208 speakers to life. I upgraded from a low power integrated though so it was a substantial improvement.

Hi, I’ve got 3 integrated amps that I am comparing now.

I own 2 and a dealer has lent me a demo.  

Reason I have looked at a change is I got new speakers.  

The amps are PrimaLuna Evo 400, Coda CSiB and a Krell K-300i.  All are fantastic in there own way.  Synergy with amp / speaker match is key.  Krell’s new XD amps are known to pair really well with the speakers I recently bought and guess what, the Krell sounds the best.  Not because it’s better but because it matches up with the speakers needs the best.  The Krell also matches up with my sound preferences.

My new speakers are 92/93 db and are supposed to be easy to drive.  While all 3 amps drive them, the grunt of the SS amps brings out the best.  I’ve had lower sensitivity speakers that the Primaluna drives with as much or more authority than SS amps.  My recommendation echos others in that hearing, auditioning is key, specs on a sheet of paper often don’t really tell the full story. 
 

The new speakers I recently purchased are Alta Audio Alec’s.  Small boutique speaker brand, best speakers I’ve ever had.  Matched with the Krell, they are simply stunning.

Millercarbon - I am thinking of trying the Krell 300 xd - amp only, you spoke of the virtues of Integrated Amps being better than separate components.  If I went with the stand alone amp I would be hooking my streamer / DAC directly into the amp.   What’s your rational for Integrated amps being better?  Does that logic apply to SS or is that a comment specific to Tubes?  Wasn’t familiar with the Amps you referenced from the beginning of your audio journey, the more recent amps you referenced seemed to all be Tube Amps. 
 

Happy Holidays! 

@guy-incognito I am definitely gonna try bridging, I really like the improvement I got with Bi-ampimg, but absolutely have to see what my amps can do and exhaust all possibilities. As for you JC5 was there a long break in time, or since you went big out of the gates, did you here a big sound jump right away? How many hours do you have in on it?

@mm1tt77 I do like what I here from my XD amps and the Krell looks impressive. I think I am gonna make a long trek and try to listen to the JC5, MC830’s and whatever else said dealer has.

Has anyone changed out their amps based on changing of listening room dimensions? Presently I’m in a 15×15 room with closed double doors and 10’ ceilings. Moving in 5 months and then will be in a 20x40 room with 9’ ceilings and a open staircase.

Probably better for me to do an in home trial at my new place.

Better amplifiers have sounded better in my system and not necessarily related to power.  

Latest example I went from a well regarded high powered newer amplifier to an extremely well regarded amplifier with much lower power.  

The sound was more dynamic, faster like live music and for lack of a better description well knitted together,  

I thought the old amp sounded great but when I put it back into my system it sounded slow, loose, less spontaneous, less life like and the bass was not as well timed to the rest of the music. 

Quality not quantity.  

Hello, and Happy Holidays ja_kub_sz!  Your amps should be just fine! Don't buy more just for the sake of  "new stuff."  Some would think your speakers could be upgraded. Have you tried swtiching cables? You can try some out from Used Cables.com and send them back if they don't improve things. And they're already "broken in." Understand that to get louder, when you already have 200 wpc available, you'd need to go to 1Kw or so. 800 watts is only 6 db louder than 200, and your wife will chase you out of the house at around 500 anyway. Perhaps you live alone? Just kidding.

I was a cable skeptic until I started experimenting. You can make your own very nice speaker cables for less than a dollar a foot plus connectors ($25 or so for locking bananas). Spectacular cable will run you $11/ft or so. USB cables are critical! Contact me if you like. I'm tryng to start a Ventura County Audio Society in California and have DIY info on such things.  Enjoy the music.

@boomerbillone funny you mentioned cables, I was looking into that as we speak and as far as usb-cables go I just grabbed two audioquest carbon cables for my Innuos and reclocker, I'll be honest it hasn't made a immense difference, but haven't been able to do solid listening session at decent volume yet.

What are peoples thoughts on XD amps? I now reading over all the different amp technologies and find XD (what I got now) very interesting being such a new development considering the history behind A/AB amps.

Don’t have the affaire. You stated “I love my system”. What else could you ask for. Always remind your self that it is about the music first and last. You are about to cheat on your love of music to go and have an affaire with the hot new flame named ”system” not knowing that system will use you abuse you and put you out to the curb. System is never satisfied and will drain your bank account all in the name of romance and never in the name of your true love music. Like all relationships it is ok to fantasize and dream about what could be better but to act will get you burned. In the end it is all about music and system will always be winking at you but know the motive behind system and stay with music and be happy.

I was driven to very high current / power amps for my love of electrostatic / planar speakers. Hence Pass designed amps. When I finally moved to traditional speakers I felt the possibilities opened up.

Higher quality solid state amps generally increase detail and slam… making them more dynamic. High quality tube equipment will increase detail and flesh out the midrange and bass… giving great nuance to these frequencies and bringing a better connection to the emotional content. Of course there is a lot of variability to what you get from either camp.

My most recent switch was from a Pass x350 to an Audio Research 160s (which I have operating in triode mode, so 75wpc). My speaker efficiency are 90db. While the slam dropped and up front, highlighted details… the change was jaw dropping. The bass and midrange opened up being completely fleshed out (bloom). The emotional connection… less analytical, so much more musical that any tendency to listening to the system instead of the music completely disappeared. I now listen to my system at least twice as much as I used to and have a hard pulling myself away.

While my comments on the solid state may sound attractive, there was no way that amp was going back in my system, ever. I got back tenfold for what I lost. To me the list for up front detail and slam came from college and led me to miss what was really important my system. 

@ghdprentice wow 160's... That has to be really amazing what speakers you have with it?

@sgreg1 You are a you are an audioholics equivalent of a great marital counselor. Thank you!

You saved my music! Great post!

@ja_kub_sz

Yes. Sonus Faber Amati Traditional. Photos of my system under my ID.

@ghdprentice That is amazing 😎👍! Wow! Very cool.

I'm hoping to build a listening room/office in my new home, but got a feeling it'll be a few years down the road if ever.

@ja_kub_sz 

Thank you. Took me quite a few decades to get here… house, room, and system.

For me it was finding a tube integrated that paired well with my QLN Prestige 5's I was visiting a friend in Austria that has the QLN P 5's and was driving them with the Audio Hungary Qualiton X200. Later we went and toured the AH plant and I bought an X200 when I got back state side.

Now I have also added a couple of Class D components to the mix also and I am really loving the Bel Canto e.one REF501S with my other BC components.

Class D is almost there my friends to challenge Class A, A/B.

Get in your new room first before making a big change. What stands are the L-100 on ? @sbank gave you great advice - get out and listen, hear a bunch of gear. Don’t settle for reading about wine ( audio, etc… )…when it’s not about ..reading…

Enjoy the journey and the music ;-)

Jim

Remoteless Robot operating remotely 

@tomic601 I have them on 17" custom stands and yeah the new room is most likely gonna be the deciding factor. 100% I'm going to listen to the JC5 MC830's and might even try a 3rd amp (something anything 4-7k) to just add to the comparisons.

great news on stands ;-) a great Hybrid amp to consider would be an Aesthetix Atlas Stereo. Tube front end with mulekicker SS outputs from the great genius of Jim White.

Best to you. 

Jim

It seems the amps you own are comparable to the speakers you own. I'm npt sure the biamping thing is necessary. I think with the amount of money you have invested you might be better off with a great integrated with less cables and fuss. Just an opinion.

@bubba12 ​​I already have a good integrated amp with the Technics SU-R1000. However it's prime use is for my vinyl with its balanced MC phono stage and DSP. I have my Teac TN-5BB and it's balanced outs running to it. It's clarity and neutrality are impeccable, but again I have a great DAC with the Musetec MH-DA005. So just looking for better amplification.

Appreciate it though.

Fair enough. Have you have used the Technics as the amp also without the Cambridge? It just seems like you have alot going on. What is wrong with the integrated alone?