Thanks Emorrisiv. I have no doubt you can hear which polarity is correct with these LPs. My point was just that, given a fairly random distribution of labels, studios or locations, recording engineers, mastering labs, pressing plants etc., together with general indifference to maintainance of input-to-output polarity by these various entities, then "correct" choice of playback polarity should be expected to show a fairly random distribution as well.
The only reason I bring these things up, I suppose, is that I've ocassionally seen stuff over the years where some audiophiles promote running in "reverse phase" at all times, or with recordings of certain origin, as being some kind of panacea, which to me betrays a basic lack of understanding of the issue. (I recall an amplifier review in Stereophile once where the manufacturer advised the reviewer to reverse his speaker leads as a matter of course to get 'better' sound. The reviewer did, and agreed with the manufacturer. But this is an impossible outcome unless all recordings are made with the same polarity, which clearly they aren't. The reason for this, I suspect, is that sometimes we tend to hear any differences that result from our own hopeful actions as being improvements, when in reality what may be an improvement in some instances in others may be just a difference.)
It's cool you've also discovered MC loading too. We all know how this affects HF response (some like the extra 'air' of running unloaded, but personally I can't abide the accompanying mid-treble peakiness that damages natural timbre). However what I've also found, that you don't usually see so much about, is how loading affects image density and focus. Listen for this when you determine optimal loading, and then if you go back and compare the sound to running less loaded or unloaded, you might notice that your corporeal and located images have now become diffuse and lacking in substance and energy.
Anyway, getting back to the thread at hand, as the snow continues to come down:
Stackridge - "Pinafore Days" (Sire '74)
Pretty Things - "Parachute" (Rare Earth/Motown '70)
Puff - S/T (MGM '69)
Collins/Shepley Galaxy - "Time, Space And The Blues" (MTA Records, sometime shortly after the lunar landing to judge by the concept, jacket pix and song titles. Oliver Nelson-ish large band led by Duke Pearson sidemen Burt Collins and Joe Shepley both on trumpets and flugelhorns, with Bob Cranshaw and Mickey Roker rhythm section. Nice plush sound in a large acoustic courtesy Columbia's 30th street studio.) |
Helo Zaikesman: thanks for the kind and informative response.
I agree with everything you are saying. Indeed some recordings sound very much the same with either phase polarity.However, I have found that my English Cathedral Music,(of which I am most intimate and expert being a life long chorister)shows phase in a dramatic way.
Many of these recordings are done in rooms of immense space,with huge powerful organs.That, and the very fast and immediate power of boys(most of the time)voices to reach into the sonic stratosphere,can tax a system to the extreme.
When the phase is correct,these transients work much better and are less problematic,i.e. cleaner.
I have also found that the room/soundstage is much more correct and recognizable.English choirs stand in antiphonal fashion,left and right of center and usually under the organ divisions. Indeed they are named;the right is the "Decani" (where the dean sits),the other is the "Cantorus"(where the cantor or precentor sits).When the phase is incorrect, the antiphonal effect is lost, and the ambient room decay and reverberation is shortened.
When listening to "pop" records,I have found the dead give away to phase is listening to cymbals.When there is a hit,but no crash or sizzle, the phase is incorrect.
I have been a "audiophile" for over 30 years, and I have just discovered this phenomenon. I also just discovered "loading" of the phono stage. Between these two epiphany, I am listening to some of my most beloved records (many that I have owned for over 30 years)as if they were new. I am having so much fun.
Recently I had a friend over for a listen.He was the guy that showed me the phase thing and for that I am indebted. He told me that I was a software guy,not a hardware guy.I suppose he is right,in that I value music first above all else in the hobby.I find the more I learn about the technical side the more interested it becomes a vehicle for making what I love better.
what a fun hobby
Happy Christmas to all |
Blood on the track - Bob Dylan on Columbia
Rodrigo y Gabriela - S/T on ATO Records
The Shadow of Your Smile - Friends of Dean Martinez on SUB POP
~ this is a beautiful Southwestern alt rock surf album with the early Calexico boys along for the ride. very cool start to two great bands.
Eric Burdon Declares "WAR" - Eric Burdon on MGM
~classic none radio play version of "Spill the Wine"
The Blues and the Abstract Truth - Bill Evans on new Impulse AP 45RPM
*a lot of great vinyl is being mentioned on this thread over the years, if you love some titles that are either very rare on vinyl these days or have never been pressed to it, please add them to the "Vinyl wish list thread" here on AudioGon...
Happy (Analogue) Listening! |
Hi Emorrisiv. I'm fortunate (or cursed, depending on your viewpoint!) in that my preamp affords remote control of absolute phase, AKA polarity, from the listening position. I try to determine the best polarity setting for any recording before listening (other than sometimes casual or background listening), and have amassed experience in doing this with thousands of recordings over several years.
The truth I've found is that many, if not most recordings are either only mildly sensitive to polarity at best; or apparently insensitive enough that I can never be sure which the preferred or "correct" setting actually is; or display one preferred setting for one solo instrument or voice but the other setting for another soloist; or confusingly display opposite preferences for soloists vs. backgrounds; and/or vary in these regards and thus the preferred setting from cut to cut on an album. And I often find that it's quite possible to convince myself that one or the other setting is "correct", only to change my mind upon subsequent relistening (additionally, this can change as I vary my listening distance within the room, or even the volume setting).
On the other hand, many other recordings do seem to show a polarity preference that's constant and not difficult to determine. In the final tally, I'd guesstimate that I do determine a setting which I prefer on balance for around 85% of recordings (the other 15% being pick'em). The funny thing is, try as I have, I can't really say that these recordings possess any likely characteristics in common, such as being "minimally miked" or "naturally recorded". Sometimes "purist" or live recordings you'd think would be a slam dunk in theory are impossible to determine the "correct" polarity with, while some heavily multitracked studio creations are quick and easy to determine.
However -- as you'd expect given the disregard to polarity throughout the miking, recording, mastering, and production processes for most recordings, and the fact that most playback loudspeakers aren't so-called "minimum phase" designs but instead use high-order crossovers that rotate phase and multiple drivers often wired in opposing polarities -- in the end, the breakdown between "straight" and "inverse" settings in my experience approaches a 50/50 split with those recordings for which a preference can be determined, with maybe just a 10%-15% tilt toward the nominally "correct" setting when using 1st-order or single-driver, minimum-phase loudspeakers.
The upshot of which is, I'd be leery of declaring one or the other polarity setting best for any arbitrary group of recordings based on some incidental characteristic such as country of origin. Especially if you're having to reverse polarity by reversing speaker leads, since that doesn't allow for rapid, multiple A/B comparisons from the listening position -- it's just too easy to confuse or convince onesself that way. But having said all that, I do commend you on bothering to experiment with polarity, and can only say "go for it and enjoy it!" if you've found any rules you can live happily by. |
Janet Baker:
"A Treasury of English Songs" truly magical inspite of being a EMI "Angel"!
Kings College Cambridge:
Purcell "Funeral Music for Queen Mary" (EMI)
Allegri "Misereri", Palestrina "Stabat Mater" (Argo)
both of these LPs are old staples for me.
Corydon Singers:
Howells "Requiem
Vaughn Willams "Mass in G minor"
Bruckner Motets
This group has several LPs on Hyperion and are all amazing
all of these LPs are original 1960s and 1970s pressings
all played in reverse phase,,,a recent discovery that is making many of my records (mostly British) sound like a different (and correct) recordings.
,,,,,give it a try |
Kaleidoscope - "Tangerine Dream" (Fontana UK '67/ Repertoire UK '05)
Kaleidoscope - "Faintly Blowing" (Fontana UK '69/Repertoire UK '05)
Fairfield Parlour - "From Home To Home" (Vertigo UK '70/Repertoire UK '04)
Kaleidoscope - "The Sidekicks Sessions 1964-1967" (Alchemy '03)
...All the same British band, evolving from garagey Beat/R&B as The Sidekicks and Moddish foppery as The Key (both represented on poor-sounding rediscovered demo acetates only), to electric + folky-baroque lite psych as Kaleidoscope, to mildly proggy classic AOR as Fairfield Parlour, with consice melodic pop and fanciful poetic/introspective lyrical sensibilities at their core. |
Last week I was at the local record store and browsing though the "newly arrived" used records and something made me check out a particularly bad looking Dark Side Of the Moon.
I think it was the fact that they were asking $30 bucks for an album that had a terrible cover, I thought it was a mistake, but it wasn't.
When I took the record out, I realized it was first pressing from 1973, and even though it was dusty, it looked amost new. I played it on in the store, and it sounded fine, but I knew I wouldn't really to be able to tell if it was noisy or not until I got home, cleaned it Walker/VPI 16.5, and it's just sublime. Much less noisy than any of the 3 "new" copies I have tried this year.
It does sound different from the new pressings, it's more open and extended, not at warm. Not better or worse, just different.
What a find. |
hank marvin-guitar syndcate...frut-keep on truckin' |
SRC - S/T (Capitol '68)
SRC - Milestones (Capitol '69)
Jamme - S/T (Dunhill/Warlok '69)
Fotomaker - S/T (Atlantic '78)
George Shearing and the Montgomery Brothers - S/T (Jazzland '61)
Marco Rizo - The Bossa Nova Sounds Of Marco Rizo (Somerset)
Marian McPartland - Bossa Nova + Soul (Time) |
Just changed the room and am listening to:
Queen "A kind of Magic"
Kings College Cambridge "O come all ye faithful" Christmas compilation (digital master but sometimes incredible)
Joni Mitchell "Song to a Seagull"
Moody Blues " Days of future Passed"
I am liking the room setup too.
e |
'twas the Night Before Christmas on the RCA/Camden label from '68. Featuring narration by the voice of the "Sugarplum Fairy". This childhood classic ALWAYS puts me in the holiday spirit! |
Jennifer Warnes "Famous Blue Raincoat"
Vaughn Willims Mass in G minor/Herbert Howells Requiem /Corydon Singers/Hyperion
Christy Moore "Voyage"
Chis Isaak "Heart shaped World"
Janet Baker/Baribirolli/
Elgar Sea Pictures
Mahler Ruckert Songs, Kindertotenleider
Jethro Tull "Broadsword and the Beast" |
Eric Dolphy, "Out to Lunch" - Blue Note 84163, Music Matters 45 rpm reissue. (With so many outstanding Music Matters Blue Note reissues to enjoy, this may be sonically the best I've heard thus far. Just scrumptious.)
. |
Stevie Ray Vaughan, " Couldn't Stand the Weather" - Pure Pleasure PPAN 39304 - another excellent mastering and pressing from Pure Pleasure; a great addition to the shelves both musically and sonically. . |
"Power of the Orchestra" - Leibowitz/RPO, RCA-VCS-2659 (Analogue Productions 45 rpm reissue) - Oh, yes! This is an amazing 45 rpm reissue, with all the power, extension, dynamic range and resolution that any of us on the lunatic fringe could ask for. This exceptional Kenneth Wilkinson / Charles Gerhardt recording can now be heard in all its sonic glory. Well worth the cost to acquire no matter how many other performances of "Night on Bare Mountain" and "Pictures at an Exhibition" one may already own. Keep in mind that this performance of "Night on Bare ("Bald") Mountain" is not the traditional Rimsky-Korsakov orchestration you may be used to hearing. It is a different orchestration by Liebowitz that is very effective, and nicely different. . |
Tchaikovsky - The Nutcracker (complete) Artur Rodzinski, with the London Philharomonic
Journey - Escape
Joni Mitchell - Blue
Carol King - Tapestry
The Who - Meaty Beaty Big and Bouncey
And a variety of Beethoween and Mozart from some great old records a friend brought over where her father is either the Concertmaster or Soloist. Very cool. |
Handel's "Judas Maccabaeus" - Mackerras/ECO, Janet Baker, Felicity Palmer, John Shirley-Quirk - Archiv 2723 050 (ahh... the incomparable Dame Janet circa 1976)
. |
This Thanksgiving morning, Beethoven Symphony # 6 in F major (Pastorale), Bruno Walter, Columbia Symphony Orchestra, Colombia Masterworks lp, playing full tilt in all its majesty. Simply glorious recording and performance!
Happy Thanksgiving 2009 to all! |
Malcolm Arnold, collection of Arnold's chamber music performed by the Nash Ensemble. A marvelous three LP set on Hyperion A66171-73, recording by the remarkable Mr. Bear.
. |
Norah Jones- Come Away With Me. The new single-sided 4 LP 45 RPM piece of sonic heaven!!! |
Lynard Skynard - Second Helping
Abbey Road
Chet Baker - Chet is Back!
Kansas - Leftoveture
Nirvana - Nevermind
Steely Dan - The Royal Scam
Billie Holliday - The Real Story of Billie Holliday |
Macdadtexas, Siamese Dream is a nice choice.
I spin their first album "Gish" more than once in a while. It was such a breath of fresh air in the summer of '91. Billy and Butch sure did their home work on this one!
Happy (classic-heavy-alt-metal-goth-glam-rock) Listening! |
Smashing Pumpking - Siamese Dream
Stuttgart Chamber Orchestra - Mozart Eine Kleine Nachtmusik
Rosan Cash - The List
The Police - Zenyotta Mondatta
Chet Baker - Chet is Back!!
wife and kids are out tonight, so lots of loud stuff!! |
Duke Ellington & Johnny Hodges, Side By Side - Verve MGVS-6109-45 (Classic Records reissue - Oh, yes, this is a sonic treat to enjoy)
Tchaikovsky, Nutcracker, Ansermet/OSR -- (had to come back to this and play all of it after just a sampling on Saturday. Also cleaned it with Walker Prelude for a huge improvement in the sound quality. My wife, who listened on Saturday says: "What did you do to the system? This sounds so much better today than it did before." And the vinyl had been previously cleaned with Disc Doctor fluid. It all makes a difference...)
Elizabeth Machonchy, String Quartet No 5, Allegri String Qt - Argo ZRG 5329 (the more I listen to this work, the more I find in it and the more I like it)
. |
With friends over for several hours, a bit of this and a bit of that...
Rachmaninov, Piano Concerto No 3 - Dorati/LSO, Byron Janis, Mercury SR 90283
Arnold, English Dances - Arnold/LPO, Lyrita SRCS 109
Rossini, Overture to Barber of Seville - Chung/Orchestra dell'Accademia Nazionale di S.Cecilia, Fone 016 -45
Verdi, Rigoletto - selections transcribed for String Quartet - Quartetto d'Archi della Scala, Fone 027J
Tchaikovsky, The Nutcracker Ballet - Ansermet/OSR, Decca SXL 2092-2 (Speakers Corner)
Louis Armstrong Plays W.C. Handy - Columbia CL 591 (Pure Pleasure)
Cannonball Adderley, Somethin' Else - Blue Note 1595-45 (Analogue Productions)
Various songs in comparative performances by Anita O'Day, Ella Fitzgerald, Julie London, June Christy from various albums
Dave Grusin, Discovered Again - Sheffield LAB 5
Keith Jarrett, The Koln Concert - ECM 1064/5
ZZ Top, Tres Hombres - London XPS 631 (Rhino reissue)
Yuyachifca - Opus 3 7902
. |
I am breaking the rules and listening to digital tonight with the trick or treaters coming around.
The Bryston DAC is stellar, not analog mind you, but it does sound good. In fact I hate to admit, but the Norah Jones vinyl version I have of Come Away with Me does not sound as good as the digital file through my DAC.
I hate to admit it, but this is really convenient. |
Hi Emorrisiv,
I do have the Baker/Barbirolli performance of Sea Pictures - another great performance and recording. Janet Baker is one of my favorite singers; my wife and I both enjoy her immensely.
Best regards, |
Rushton,Nice choice.
Do you have the Janet Baker/Barfirolli/ Elgar Sea Pictures?
Truly one of my favorite Janet Baker discs and I have most of them. Her Mahler "Kindertotenleider is another.
e |
Clifford Brown & Max Roach, Study on Brown, EmArcy MG 36037
Cannonball Adderley, Somethin' Else, Blue Note 1595 (Classic Records reissue)
Louis Armstrong, Ambassador Satch. Philips B07138L
Chausson, Piano Qt, Les Musiciens, Harmonia Mundi HM 1116
Berlioz, Les Nuits d'ete, Janet Baker, Barbirolli/NewPO, EMI ASD 2444
. |
Tonight I am listening to a LP I just got from Brazil.Chris Isaak "Heart shaped World". This seems to be a fairly rare piece on vinyl.It is a wonderful recording with great presence,bass,and smooth mid bass.Too bad the version I have is not in the best shape,though it was listed as "EX". this one is not even VG! The music makes up for it. |
Townes Van Zandt, Live at the Old Quarter, Houston, Texas - Fat Possum FP 1118
Michael Murray, "Marcel Dupre Organ Recital" - Advent Records 5014 (a Bob Woods and Jack Renner analog recording before they started Telarc)
Lief Segerstam, String Quartet No 6 - Segerstam Qt, BIS LP 20 (ann excellent late 20th century composer whose works will really challenge one and will reward with the effort)
. |
Reading over some of these responses has given me a list of some more music I need to buy. |
The Four Seasons Roma Trio----Vol 1 Venus Records VHJKD-18
John Williams Seven Great Guitar Concertos------
---Columbia M3X 31508
Brandenburg Concerti Otto Klemperer----- Angel SB 3627 2 |
I am currently listening in the Man Cave to Joni Mitchell's "Song to a Seagull". For those who know me,know that it is my favorite Joni LP or CD.Preferably vinyl.
Her first recording with David Crosby producing and Stephen Stills on bass(on one track).The rest is just Joni and her guitar.Very simple and very beautiful.
It is before her high production and jazz influence.More like a folk art song form.Though not folk.
Deeply personal with tremendous text painting and imagery.
and oddly enough her least well known.
e |
Ryuichi Sakamoto's piano solo soundtrack album to "Merry Christmas, Mister Lawrence". |
Bach, Mass in b minor - Harnoncourt/Concentus Musicus Wien, Telefunken 6.35019 (a compelling performance and recording, even after 40 years)
Telemann, 12 Fantasies for blockflute - B.Kuijken, solo blockflute, Accent ACC 7803 (the Accent label continues to provide some of the most natural sounding chamber music on my shelves)
. |
humble pie: performance/rockin the fillmore--it's been sitting on my stack for about a 100 years before i actually deigned to put it on. surprisingly, it's pretty great--the pre-megastardom peter frampton was a pretty good guitarist who eschewed alot of blues cliches, while steve marriott was arguably the great white soul shouter--check out "four day creep". i'd sorta remebered their rhythm section as somewhat lumbering, but in fact they keep up nicely, and overall it's a helluva ride. you might also check out their first two studio records (as safe as yesterday and twon and country), which are suprisingly folky/acoustic and sound not wildly dissimilar to what led zeppellin did in their less electric moments. |
* Vetiver- Things of the Past on Gnomonsong Records
A great cover album, only to be topped their own stuff. fun.
* Mono- Hymn to the Immortal Winds on Human Highway Records
beautiful, dense, euphoric
* Sting- The Soul Cages on A&M Polygram
a Russian pressing, sonically precious but, surface noise to challenge the best
(worst) Lost Highway vinyl.
* Ryan Adams- Heartbreaker on Blood Shot Records
This is the newerrr 2x 180 gm. pressing, much nicer. Can't quit playing this one.
* The Violet Archers- Sunshine at night on Saved by Vinyl
another very cool little indie Canadian band
Happy Listening! |
Fleetwood Mac - Rumors (hadn't heard it in years)
The Police - Synchronicity
Joy Division - Closer
Sade - Promise
The Eagles - Hotel California
The Beatles - Sgt Pepper's Lonley Hearts Club Band |
add to mine,
Hall & Oates, "Abandoned Luncheonette". (this is so excellent). |
- New Order, Everything Gone Green, Mesh, Cries and Whispers, Factory Benelux Japanese Pressing.
- Joy Division, 1979 Radio Sessions, re-issue.
Und zum letzte: - Kraftwerk, Radio Activity. |
Chick Corea - "Eye of the Beholder"
CC - "Akoustic Band"
Roy Buchanan's 1st |
Last night I was really moved by:
Ry Cooder- Chicken Revue
Louie's St. James Infirmary
Clifford Brown |
AC/DC - Back In Black
Led Zeppelin - Mothership
REM - Murmur
Rockin night!!! |
Hank Mobley - "Soul Station' Music Matters/Blue Note 45 RPM
Fantastic artist and fantastic recording. These Music Matters 45 RPM's are expensive, but to my ears, are better than the impulse 45 RPM releases or the Acoustic Sounds 45 ROM releases.
This album is got something for everyone who loves vintage jazz..... |
The second movement of Mahler's Fourth Symphony fascinates me. I've been enjoying a comparison between my favorite versions: Kubelik/Bavarian Radio Sym. on DGG; Klemperer/Philharmonia Orch. on EMI; Solti/Amsterdam Concertgebouw on Decca; Horenstein/London Phil. on Classics For Pleasure and Bernstein/New York Philharmonic on Columbia. |
Dave Brubeck Quartet, Time-out, 200gram reissue. I can't get enough of Take-Five. Brubeck was preceeded by Jackie McLean Swing, Swang, Swinging, Blue-Note re-issue. |
The New Miles Davis Quintet, Prestige 7014 (Analogue Productions 45 rpm reissue)
Jackie McLean, Jackie's Bag, Blue Note 84051 (Analogue Productions 45 rpm reissue)
. |
Elton John - Goodbye Yellow Brick Road
The Smith's - "How Soon is Now?" 12" club mix
Nirvana - Nevermind
Steely Dan - Aja (again, and again, and again...)
The Police - Ghost in the Machine (Japanese Pressing, v nice) |
Today it is Verdi's la Forza Del Destino... I am listening to a 1980 Japanese pressing by King Records off the original 1955 London/Decca recording with Renata Tebaldi in the role of Donna Leonora, and Mario del Monaco (one of my favorite Italian tenors) singing Don Alvaro.
What a pair of lungs on that lady...
Other than being a really nice pressing, it is a fabulous recording. Can't beat it for $2. |
