@pindac I have read the manufacturing process for PC Triple C Wire and I'm lost as to the benefit. If I understand it correctly, they are repeatedly working the copper to end up with all the crystals aligned. And yet, with the OCC continuous casting process, you supposedly end up with a cable comprised of one single crystal. Zero boundaries for the power/signal to need to navigate. No need to compress it to remove oxygen as it's already oxygen free. Kind of sounds like they needed to come up with a process to convince us to buy new cables? IMHO As an aside to this, I run Hegel amps, and questioned them directly on the best power cable to use. They suggested using anything other than the stock cable they provided was a waste of money. For what it's worth.
What was the first power cable that you noticed a difference in the sound?
I have bought six or seven different power cords, none over $500 and have noticed little or no change in the sound of my system. All the cables are 12 gauge or bigger. Without talking about cables made with unobtainium, where did you start hear a difference.
Thanks.
It is when reading about Bybee 12 years ago that i decided to experiment with some minerals as shungite and quartz etc ... With success at my modest scale ...😊 I dont have money for costly tweaks but it does not means they dont work ...
Science is experiments, not decrees by some Pope of a technological cult faith about how and why qualia are only reducible to Maxwell equations as interpreted by some engineers ..
One of the greatest science achievements of all time come from mystics rigorous thinking by the way ... Sorry for technocratic materialists ... life is not simplistic ... 😁
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@texbychoice Jack Bybee's work as a physicist would be an example cable/circuit research for military use. Bybee’s first commercial products emerged from Cold War-era military-industrial research. The stealthy shadow contest of nuclear submarine detection, location and evasion demanded ever-quieter circuits, lower electronic noise and greater signal-to-noise ratios. Practitioners summed up the problem as: “reducing 1/f noise, from DC to 2000hz”. Bybee’s technology involves exotic blends of rare-earth metals or their isotopes to reduce electronic noise in circuits. In the mid-1990s, Bybee’s AC filtering was among the first of its kind to use exotic doped materials instead of transformers or balanced power, which made it a novel concept at the time. _ _ _ _ _ More examples would be these engineers who started - and continue to run - innovative audio cable companies. Purist Audio Design – Founded by Jim Aud – EE & Physicist From there, I earned my Electronics Engineering degree at Brescia University, and would later study Computer Science for almost two years at Westinghouse. Then I came to South Texas Nuclear, and studied what they’d call today nuclear physics. Link here.
Shunyata Research – Founded by Caelin Gabriel – Research Scientist Caelin Gabriel is a former US military research scientist with a background in research and design of ultra-sensitive data acquisition systems. These systems were designed to detect extremely low-level signals otherwise obscured by random noise, requiring years of intensive research into the sources and effects of signal and power-line noise interference. Link here.
Bybee Technologies – Founded by Jack Bybee – Physicist Jack’s science and physicist background gave him the understanding about negative effects of quantum noise. Link here.
Silversmith Audio – Founded by Jeffrey Smith – Engineer CEO/Designer Jeffrey Smith is a Wyoming native and graduate of the United States Naval Academy with a Bachelor of Science degree in General Engineering. He also earned a Master of Science Degree, With Distinction, in Defense and Strategic Studies. Link here.
MIT Cables – Founded by Bruce Brisson – awarded 20 USPTO engineering patents. MIT Cables founder Bruce Brisson began purposely designing audio cables in the 1970’s after encountering the sonic problems inherent in cables typical of the day. Link here.
Audioquest – Garth Powell - Sr. Director of Engineering Formerly with Furman Power for 12 years. |
@polkalover Broad generalizations such as you promote are not universally true. In many situations a power cable change makes little difference because the are problems or performance limitations in other parts of the system. As another post described extensive experience setting up an entire system for minimal noise floor, same system approach should be applied to home audio. That approach does not mean expensive cables of any type have to be used. Quality matters. Everything matters. If one person is happy with manufacturer supplied cables - FINE. If another wants to spend THEIR money and time differently - FINE. Manufacturers are in the business of making money and staying in business. Assuming anything else is ass -u-me, as the saying goes. NASA and the Air Force learned when first trying to launch things into space, unexpected things happened. Well designed sub-systems did not always behave as expected and failures were frequent. Eventually smart people discovered unexpected and unplanned circuit paths, i.e. sneak circuits. A sneak circuit analysis discipline evolved. Other analysis disciplines evolved that are incorporated, to some degree, in modern electrical design. However, make no mistake that cost remains the primary driver when it comes time to stop the engineers and go into production. Does everybody need a $200, $1000, $10,000 power cable? Absolutely not. Is there a lot of smoke and mirrors justifying some high dollar cables. Yes, but not all. There are well engineered and constructed cables that will make a difference when part of a system level approach. The only universal truth is the personal freedom to make your own choice. |
I am also struggling with this conundrum, but I gotta side with this response from a different forum.... ":
Rather than a safety concern the scam artist's sales pitch says things along the lines of "The inadequately thick (meaning gauge) cord they gave you for free is choking your amp from receiving the full current in needs to provide you with the punch and dynamics your amp is actually capable of". See their story is the necessary cable is "Just too darn expensive for them to give you and still sell the unit at a competitive price." What they count on is that the typical consumer has no idea that thick power cords are actually a relatively trivial expense to the maker. All they see is that Monstrous Hype AC cables are expensive so that's their frame of reference. THE LAST LINE SAYS IT ALL!
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I tend to agree with you that there is no valid scientific explanation re: much of the wire claims. That said: 1. Several sub assemblies (e.g., transformers and most digital products) spit out a lot of noise that can, indeed, travel back through the mains. (Bringing up the need for isolation at the plug, which is a different topic) 2. Quality insulation helps the noise from going somewhere unwanted. 3. A lot of supplied power cords do skimp on copper gauge and nice fitting plugs. Electricity and interference will take the path of least resistance. So a low (by which I mean bigger) gauge wire provides an easier path. I’m not opposed to the idea of a high gauge wire might be starving a component for a bit, either. 4. Nice wires tend to be bought longer and are more flexible. So people take more care with routing of interconnects and mains so they cross at 90 degrees and don’t run close parallel, which also helps with interference. 5. Tight fitting plugs make a better connection. Hence why hospitals use hospital plugs. Note nothing here discusses magic crystal wire with unicorn hair. Just low AWG wire, with good copper, nicely insulated (say, the kind the IT guy buys for your company router) and perhaps a secondary sheath, of generous length for proper routing, with hospital plugs. Not cheap stuff, at all. Different, but related, issue: components need space and isolation. They all generate all sorts of noise. The interactions are so complex it might as well be voodoo. Source: I was an electronics countermeasures officer in the very first Gulf War hunting SCUDs in the middle of Iraq from a POS Kiawa helicopter with no weapons packed with finicky electronics. |
@drbb , The problem is most audiophiles have either a preconceived notion as to their choice of cable, or want to compare cables. If one buys McIntosh gear but doesn't care for the sound of the Audioquest cable and prefers a different cable, he doesn't want to pay the unnecessary cost of the cable. |
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@thcarpathian That really is something. As a long time business economist I have a proposition for an audiophile manufacturer. Include a high end power cable. The margins have to be pretty large on after market cables and with bulk wholesale orders the cost would go down. It's a win-win. I get to offer a complete amplifier system with an audiophile power cable and the supplier can advertise that XYZ amplifiers use the ABC power cable, which should lead to more sales for both. Right!?! For example, McIntosh contracts with Audioquest for supply of their Thunder power cable. Obviously, this would be well-below the ~$1,000 per meter cost (both decrease in variable cost [more cables are produced] and the advantage of a highly respected firm providing high-level marketing). So all the new McIntosh amplifiers now are supplied with an audiophile grade power cable and the cost over the model is far less than the aftermarket cable cost. McIntosh improves its reputation as does Audioquest. Plus. McIntosh is more competitive in the amplifier market with the "vertical integration". Pretty sure market dynamics would drive this outcome if market forces were in play in this market. Other wise it sounds like some kind of collusion or worse. I sure hate to think people are buying multi-$1,000 amplifiers with a throw away cable. What a market opportunity that should be, which seems like it would have been exploited long ago. |
@lcherepkai I agree with your final comment "why don't you simply experiment, and listen", however I feel much of your post is apples/oranges re the OP's question. The majority of your post talks about "signals" and how they are affected by various cables. I think of a signal as carrying information. The signal from my DAC to my Pre may very well be enhanced by the choice of cable, but the question about PC's is completely different? Now we are talking about the pure transmission of electricity, prior to interacting with any signals, or for that matter, any of the alterations to that electricity once it enters the amp. Don't mean to nit pick but...... I think the two things are separate discussions. IMHO Cheers. |
More than one high end electronics manufacturer has said they know most customers will buy the power cord of their choice, so no reason to add cost by including an expensive cord. Though some manufacturers like Pass and Rowland do include a "good" power cord (for their customers who will not buy an aftermarket cord, beats including a junk cord)...though they certainly use expensive cords at audio shows, and many seem to have a preferred brand... |
@drbb , This has been answered a few times by way of the following: Most if not all who purchase the big dollar gear are going to use an aftermarket cable of their choice, the big dollar gear manufacturers know this, so they provide what is essentially a throw away cable. Now, why provide a cable at all is another question... |
This may be a naive question, but I have yet to see this discussed on this forum or elsewhere: Why would a company that builds audiophile-level components intended for the most discriminating taste, which often cost 1000s and 10s of 1000s of dollars, use an inferior power cable that is "noisy" and reduces the sound quality? In the end, wouldn't they lose out to manufacturers that used better power cables? Just doesn't make sense to me (perhaps naively as I've suggested). |
You are exactly who @ditusa states you are. |
@ditusa I find your post curious and it seems to be the modus operandi around this forum. Have seen this several times twice now with me and a couple times accusing another person of using an alias (to wit we all do on this forum). What is interesting is that one bears false witness if A. one party disagrees. B. The accused makes a valid counter point. As I did in that your equipment is 40 years old and would not benefit from an upgrade to a $40.00 power cable, even in its finest day. You make this accusation based on me researching an old post in the archives on OCC wire where I found this Uribe19 with intimate knowledge of Neotech, the process and that Uribe19 like @magnuman both live in Vancouver BC, Canada. They also have the same behaviours in calling people stupid, dumb and ignorant in their posts. So this makes me all those people you claim. No more so than it makes you a Republican, Al Anon follower that is an ANti Vaxxer and a Xenophobe. You can think what you like of me but do not accuse me of being someone else as I am Jacob’s Father and If I were inclined could make false allegations against you that would be to easy. Also I will not be running to the moderators like some, I know I can take you down with my words, you have proven that. Respectfully Steve Snyder. Rapid City, South Dakota. |
In my case $120. Audioquest NGR-2 (way back when). Since then, haven’t just drank the KoolAide on PC/power delivery. I chugged the entire pitcher. (I’m the guy who did the "audiophile power cable" survey a few months ago). I’m sure there are cases where all the stars line up, power delivery falls into place quite nicely (as suggested by @carlsbad2 ), and the factory-provided/hardwired cable will do just fine. I just haven’t heard it yet. But, I’m open-minded. For me, I have yet to hear a case where a premium PC didn’t make a difference on ANY component at ANY price. As dealer, we’ve put, literally, hundreds of premium PCs in customer’s systems. But, admittedly, my experience is limited to mostly 4 figure electronics. We currently do performance mods in the shop, some involving internal power delivery upgrades. The differences are simply stunning. I keep 2 identical 100x2 NAD power amps on hand. One completely stock. One with performance mods. The upgraded version doesn’t just sound better. It sounds like it was designed and built in a different factory to a much higher standard. Take the top 10 adjectives we like to use to describe "better sonics" and they are all there,, in abundance.. Here’s another case in point. We were missing around on the bench with a little (less than $100 retail) Class D plate amp. We were seeing how this thing might work in a cost-effective, stealthy office system mounted to the modestly panel under a desk. I have to say that, while we reached the stealthy goal, the sound quality was harsh, and down right nasty. Then I thought: "What the heck?", reached for a $69 AQ power cable and swapped it out on the outboard power supply. The sound immediately calmed down, there was some bass presence when none was there before, and the soundstage became somewhat 3-dimensional. The point: Even cheap stuff benefits from premium PCs. |
As sure as some cables change the sound qualia as perceived by some brain , it is sure also as in the case of some power conditioner , they can degrade the quality of sound or improve it for some amplifier or some system choices and not from other ... My own power conditioner for example is not so useful with the Sansui alpha , it degrade the sound but is useful for my other low cost system , it improve the sound ... For some higher cost power conditioner or power cable , i partake the opinion of carlbads2 as i already said , they can make a difference or not , it is system dependant as he explained well above ... Now this thread for sure will degrade in a battle between subjectivist who knows quality exist for the ears as a subjective experience of the gear and those objectivist who claim they dont exist if it is not measurable electrically with tools ... The ears being for them an illusionist not a real tool... I am neither a subjectivist nor a subjectivist ... Then i dont refute subjectivist claims about the power cord because i know by my ears that it is possible to affect the sound positively or not at all with a power cord ... In the same way, i know as objectivist claim , that the quality of the design is not merely only grounded in human subjective taste , but as they claim must be grounded on some electrical measures as such , but certainly it is not always such and it is not always enough as rightfully claim subjectivists, and it is my opinion , they are grounded also in psycho-acoustics measures ... I am neither a subjectivist nor an objectivist ... Why ? Because i studied, read about sounds and perceptions , and i experimented ...I am not a fetichist of the mere gear or of the mere electrical tool ...I believe first and last in the correlation between gear and tool and the acoustics context and the brain ...
«Truth dont invoke nor provoke and dont need a scapegoat and cannot be caricatured» Anonymus thinker 🧐
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I can say the days of OCC Wire are now over in my system due to my adopting the use of PC Triple C Wire. I have been an advocate of PC Triple C Wire for a period of time and have been instrumental through loaning out Cables using this Wire. I can assure you that some very enthusiastic users of Audio Equipment have now moved to PC Triple C Wire used throughout their systems following their encounters with it in Loaned/Demonstrated Cables. One such encounter was with Power Cables, I loaned a PC Triple C Wire Power Cable with a Purchase Value of approx' £200 per metre, to a individual who has a lot of respect throughout the UK. The individuals system receives very good appraisal and the work they carry out on Audio Devices as work for betterment is very well known. This person has a lot of friends with Audio Interests. The initial experience of the above individuals experiencing PC Triple C wire was with myself present. I was keen to hear it in use in a System not using Valve Amplification and the system it was to be added to is SS Amplification. The owner of the System, put a current through the Cable for approx' one hour before the demo' took place. On adding the Cable to the Phonostage, the effect was immediate and to both listeners there was a more to be heard on offer and each track played was assessed as a betterment. Very Similar happened with the Power Amp. It was agreed on the day that my choice of Plug and IEC for the Cables were able to be improved upon and more could be expected if this was addressed. I left the Cable with this individual to swap out connectors and further assess. The assessments went further than I thought would occur, a local group got involved and purchased other types of Power Cable produced using PC Triple C Wire. The A/B Comparisons took place with a Group present at the system I loaned the Cable to. The out come was quite interesting, especially allowing for the follow up evaluations. The Group were all in agreement that the Cable seen in the Link, when terminated with Solid Copper Plug/IEC had an impact on the sonic being produced, that was a betterment to the previous Power Cables in use. https://zenmarket.jp/en/rakutenproduct.aspx?itemCode=audio9:10000582 |
from tennisdoc56: By what method/electrical theory does a power cord improve the contractor grade romex in your walls? Please avoid explanations in biology such as sees, senses, feels, prefers. Not being sarcastic
I googled the following: "acoustical properties of various metal conductors" and over the next 6 pages, I didn't get a single hit that covered, in any manner, the way that each metal affects the sound of the signal that passes through it. There were entries about sound absorption, sound reflection, which metal is the best conductor of electricity, acoustic properties of commercially available thermal insulators, and the speed of sound in metal/sound waves passing through solid metals.
Nowhere did I see any mention of how passing the signal through various metals affects the sound. There was nothing about the warmth of gold, the detail of silver, etc. Is there respectable research being done in this area; are theories out there relating to this? I have no idea, but my search didn't yield anything relevant. I'm not a scientist. I'm actually quite challenged by modern technology, but I do use the scientific method in my audiophile pursuit. I LISTEN. I try different components, cables, connectors, and most recently, slugs (in place of fuses). I don't know WHY there are such variations in sound between the various metals I've used but, clearly, the addition of different metal(s) in the signal path (and possibly outside in the case of some fuses) can significantly affect the sound.
Rather than rely on this stance, why don't you simply experiment, and listen. Do you really think that all those stating the benefits/differences of cables are delusional or just exaggerating? And please tennisdoc56, don't take this as an attack. Since the research doesn't appear to be out there, I think we should all do our own. |
@tennisdoc56 +1! At last a reality-based response! |
+1 Cundare2, I replaced my stock power cords with Pangea AC9 MKII SE with Cardas copper (yeah I know they are above average at best) and heard no improvement. I later had 2 dedicated lines pulled and installed audiophile receptacles (Furutech GTX-D gold and rhodium) and Oyaide R1, and voila!.....now we're getting somewhere. Afterwards I went back to the OEM cables versus the Pangea cables, and now there was a sonic improvement. My conclusion is that only when I upgraded my power delivered to the cable, was the cable able to produce a difference. As I am now building a dedicated listening room, the first thing I will include is 3 dedicated circuits. |
My first "audiophile" power cords were Kimber Kords, the early ones with the plastic sheathing. These were a minimal step up from the stock cords but, of course, my system was FAR less revealing then so it's hard to tell just what they did to the sound. It wasn't until I tried various Electraglide power cords that I heard an obvious improvement. The Wolff power cords were another obvious improvement over the Electraglides they replaced. |
@ditusa -5000 but you have 4 dedicated circuits for that 40+ year old gear. Funny. |
@panzrwagn +10 Mike |
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@curiousjim I will not engage this guy any more. Sorry he is quite annoying. |
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Thanks my friend for your apology ... I appreciate that... And you are right about my habit to sometimes speak too much out of the matter... but at least i am not always boring i hope ...😊 my best to you ....
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@magnuman no I know all about OCC, was referring to this obscure cable manufacturer you speak so highly of. |
First how do you read post? do you read them to suit your desire to vent anger or to understand my point ? --First i said that i approved carlsbad post and he explicitly does not deny the advantage of a power cord upgrade in SOME CASE not in all case , for the reason he explain well ...Then this approval suppose that i think the same4 as him about power cord efficiency ... --Second, i explicitly said that my system value is 700 bucks then i cannot afford a costly power cord which value will even exceed my system cost and his resoldering it to my vintage Sansui ... --Third i never denied the value of power cord in ALL my posts ...I only describe my situation and i am not alone in this situation with a low cost system and no need to buy a power cord ...Which does not means that i would not try one if it was possible without desoldering the one i have ...
Then i am not the one who pollute this thread as you claim ...Those who insult others are pollution ... I am the one who said twice that carlsbad post was interesting and probably true for many amplifiers owner... I never bash people without reading them first and their intention... If i was wrong i always apologize... i had move along already before answering your attack because i have said all that i want to say already ... Are you a fanatic as those who deny any cord power advantage, but contrary to them one who vouch for a power cord in all case at all cost for everyone , preferably the cord that suit you ? It seems so ... I never attack people i gave arguments ...I gave my opinion ... I dont appreciate to be treated as deaf or polluting a thread with NO ARGUMENTS except you felt the urge to say so...
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