Hi Rebbi,
As I've said before,you're doing your homework. I honesty like all 3 of your final choices for various reasons.
1) Art Audio is a proven product with professional reviewer raves and also very strong owner feedback comments. Buying used with unknown(at this time anyway) support/repair network. However tube amps(especially point to point wired) aren't hard to repair for a good local tech.
2)AN Kit 300b, solid track record for quality and well respected product. Has very good owner satisfaction feedback.I'm glad upgrade capacitors were encouraged(smart move). As a kit the final result will be somewhat builder (skill)dependent. They do other optional high quality parts.
3)Commonsense 300b, Relatively unknown(unproven?) must trust the word of the builder mostly. However this could be a"really" good SET amplifier. It looks fine on paper and the story is good(who has heard one?).For 1500.00 it could in fact be something special. This amp represents the great unknown(unlike AN Kit and Art Audio).
all things considered the AN Kit is probably the safest choice with excellent upgrade options.AN certainly has vast experience and knowledge regarding the 300b tube.
Charles, |
Rebbi, the 300B with David's "5.6" model speakers (with his proprietary 15" AN drivers) were among my favorite combinations at RMAF this year...at all of $3.5K total for the pair (including the speaker build). The incongruity between sound and price tag on that system was second only to the little Linkwitz omni built from Home Depot PVC pipe that costs $450 to build (now THAT was an eye opener...).
The only "trouble" with the AN 5.6s (for me) was that they are far too large (44T X 18W X 14.74) for any space I'm likely to occupy in the near future. But they were pretty darn sweet... |
The low end roll off comment is interesting. If you can live with some low end roll off, those precious few watts can go further. Could be a good thing for dynamics otherwise. An amp spec worth considering with more borderline efficient speaks like the decapo. Remember that loudness and dynamics are two different things. It's the dynamics mostly that have been lacking In demos I have heard using underpowered sets with speakers of considerably higher efficiency even at moderate volume in not large rooms. |
Mapman,
Your experiences with SET amps(not sure which ones you've heard,some are better than others of course) seem to certainly differ from mine,Brownsfan,Mikirob,Markus and others. In your case it appears you are better off with high power SS or class D amplifiers. That's the good aspect of audio, we all find what individually suits us best. Dynamic contrast and their gradiations are not an issue in my system. I personally experience more "startle" episodes listening with my SET amps than all the previous amps I've owned. As they say, YMMV. |
Charles,
It's probably just amp/speaker synergy. Case by case. Each case may be a bit different . The best set demos I have heard have been excellent but with very large very efficient speakers designed for the task. Results of the best ss based combos are in the same league. No two exactly the same though. Source material makes a huge difference as well of course. |
Ralph/Atmasphere has made the point in a number of past threads that a major reason SETs are commonly perceived as having especially good dynamics relates to how their distortion varies as a function of signal level.
With most push-pull amps, once output level falls below some number of watts (often measured in single digits, I believe), distortion will rise as the level decreases further.
With SETs, on the other hand, distortion will continue to progressively decrease as output level decreases, until it becomes vanishingly small at very low output levels. While distortion will progressively increase as the output level approaches the amplifier's maximum power capability. Since as Ralph has said our hearing mechanisms utilize certain distortion components as loudness cues, that kind of variation of distortion as a function of signal level will maximize the perceived contrast between high volume notes and low volume notes. Also, the vanishingly small distortion at low signal levels will enhance resolution of low level detail.
Makes sense to me. Best regards,
-- Al
|
I would buy that explanation. In my case I have a set on the radar screen somday as a good solution with a wider variety of speaker designs for lower level more casual listening. Good for the ears no doubt. That would be another advantage for music lovers looking to preserve their hearing. Also I believe lower listening levels tend to fare better more often for minimizing listening fatigue which tends to increase listening enjoyment. At least for forms of music conducive for low level listening. |
Al,
That observation correlates with my listening experience.With the sensitivity of my speakers (94 db and 14 ohm load)sitting 10 feet from the speakers. My average SPL listening is 75-80 db C weighted with a range with most jazz CD recordings from soft (low 50s db) to (88-90 db peaks). Most of the time amp is using "fractions" of 1 watt up to 1-2 watts of power. So distortion is very low. This explains the high resolution,transparency and very subtle nuance retrival. These levels are very easy on the ears and yet enjoyable and involving. Loudest I've gone was 102-104 db with cranked up jazz drumming and rock(the Doors and also N. Young).It was good at those high levels(done rarely). |
Mdemaio,
What you report is very good news for many people. High quality sound for very reasonable cost. Seems that's quite a 300b SET for 1550.00 |
Hi Rebbi,
The more I reflect on your situation and choices, the more attractive the Commomsense Audio SET amp becomes.Mdemaio said it was very close to the Audion SET in sound quality. That's high praise given the Audion's stature and reputation. To get this for 1550.00 is remarkable IMO. This price gives you room for possible upgraded parts, I'd ask David if for a bit more money could the caps,wire,resistors be improved.These parts are crucial to getting top level sound. I wouldn't cut corners here to save a few dollars. He might say the chosen parts are already top quality(for all I know).
For instance using some Jupiter copper foil coupling capacitors would be excellent(they aren't crazy expensive either). Have him use the best wire you can afford, If you get this right the first time you'll have a SET that can keep you happy for many years. Of course I have no idea if he's open to this approach or not. SET circuits are so bare bones pure and simple that you'll hear what each part has to offer.
Charles, |
I do agree that, relative to a pushpull amp, SET amps tend to have less bass extension and "softer" bass (less impact or punch). But, I really like the "tuneful" nature of SET bass. I hear more subtle variations and tonal qualities to drums and lower bass instruments with SET amps than with most pushpull amps. In that sense, pushpull amps tend to sound a bit "mechanical" and that punch has a "sameness" no matter the music; one does not get that sense with SET amps. From my experience, there is no perfect choice and tradeoffs are involved. I like the tuneful bass of SETs, but, I also like the extra kick I get from my pushpull amps. These days I listen mostly to my pushpull 349 amp.
Rebbi, I hate to complicate your search even more, but, you really MUST listen to a good OTL amp. Given a high enough impedance speaker, OTLs can be VERY good. Something like the 30 watt Atmasphere would appear to be a good match. |
My Zu Def 4s have a built-in powered subwoofer so that any limits to bass extension inherent in an SET approach are eliminated. As I have noted previously, I evolved from a 45 to a 2a3 to a 300b SET. The 45 and 2a3 just sounded thin - perhaps, in part, because of very long speaker wire runs from one side of my living room down and through the basement to the other side. I also tried an EAR 859 that seemed too objective and did not allow the richness and tone of the Def 4s to shine. Ultimately, I settled on a 300b. (I also tried higher powered digital amps to see if I was missing any "oomph" and was pleasantly surprised by what a 300b SET could do.) As everyone has noted, the match between speaker with SET seems to be a bit more finicky than the match with other topologies. The issue becomes the management of the cost of experimentation. In my case I used Audiogon to purchase the first three or four amps that I tried before commissioning a new Ancient Audio custom-made 300b SET. I was able to buy and sell the progression of pre-owned amps without losing money - including shipping. It just took patience. Audiogon has become a tremendous resource in that regard. |
Charles,
Last night, I was thinking that I should just get myself a Dynamo and be done with it and have a bunch of money left over for re-tubing. However, since the consensus here seems to be that the 300 B is something really special and that I should try to move in that direction to "get it right the first time" if possible, then it looks like I am looking at either the Audio Note Kit 1 or that Audio Nirvana piece from David.
The appealing thing about the Audio Note proposition is that I would know exactly what's in it, I would have the fun project of building it, and it is clearly heavily upgradable. Brian was nice enough to make me an offer with the better capacitors at dealer cost ($160) and the shipping fee waived. I also get three inputs and, I would imagine, better resale value, if needed, than pretty much any other kit because of the Audio Note reputation. Anyway, this would bring me in just a hair under my maximum budget. The only thing that gives me pause about this option is something I read in the assembly manual, which is online. It says something like, "The stock tubes are fine for testing and burning in, but a few months down the road you may want to get yourself some better tubes." The idea that I am going to have to sink more money into the amp so soon for it to show what it can really do is a little disconcerting! Thoughts?
As for the Audio Nirvana amp, it is very tempting because of the price and the possibility of discovering "The Greatest Bargain in SET Amps These Days." :-)
My hesitation would come from the untested nature of the beast, and from the fact that David seems to be, as far as I can tell, running this operation out of his home. (His wife picked up the phone the first time I called and I heard, "honey, you have a customer!") Of course, this is not unheard of in the Wacky World of Audio Manufacturing and distribution, but it does make you think. Of course, on the other hand, it's probably exactly is kind of small-scale operation that makes his pricing structure possible. He or, in this case, his engineer friend, design the products, have them manufactured in China, and then sell them here at a very low profit margin.
When I spoke with him yesterday, I asked him about the warranty situation. He said, in effect, that he hadn't had to think about it all that much because he had never had any returns on his first tube amp, which is a 6V6, Push-pull affair. I told him that I have a great, local repair shop here and I'm pretty sure he said that if it needed repairs, he would pay for them to be done locally.
I do have a certain hesitation around buying gear made in China. I really, really don't want this wonderful thread to be diverted into the topic of eastern versus western made audio gear. There are plenty of other rancorous threads for that purpose! I am not concerned about quality, because I know that there is some superb stuff coming out of China these days. I am more concerned about the ethics of relatively well off people in "first world" countries buying their luxury goods on the backs of workers in lower wage countries. But again, I'm not judging any of you who don't feel the same way or have the same qualms about this. But I'll call David today and ask about parts quality. |
Rebbi,
Well you have put forth a clear summary of the tradeoffs that exist. David's SET is less money for the reasons you listed. I suspect you'd love the Dynamo but may maintain "what if" possibilities about the 300b difference. David's SET is not much more money and gets you a 300b amp. The Dynamo has the highly regarded Coincident name, quality and support. If the Commonsense SET is as good as it seems, it's a great opportunity. Somewhere down the road get top quality 300b tubes and you'll have something special. |
All legit concerns, Rebbi. In my experience, David does tend to be a bit hyperbolic as well, so take that for what it's worth. But what I heard sounded great, and given the topic at hand thought the AN was worth mentioning.
It sounds like this might come down to the question of pride of ownership and personal ethics, particularly if "Made in China" isn't an issue from a quality standpoint. I completely get that one. It's for that very reason I mostly stick with gear made by someone I can call on the phone, or with used gear (I figure the damage is already done there). I guess that's the byproduct of coming from a family comprised fairly equally of artisans and labor lawyers...I try my best to represent both camps in my personal choices whenever possible ;) |
Rebbi,
You really began what's become a very good and interesting thread. It does raise real world purchasing issues. Buying components when it isn't possible to audition prior to paying for them. This was my situation over 5 years ago before buying the Frankensteins brand new. My very first post on this site in 2009 was seeking out owners of this amplifier. I was so inspired by their response and enthusiasm(some via private email) I took the chance. To say it worked out fine is an understatement. I realize it doesn't always turn out that way. I can relate to your position and that's why I try to contribute in some fashion.
Charles, |
Charles,
You have been extremely helpful, thank you!
What do you think of the tube quality "issue" on the Audio Note kit?
Sounds like you are very curious about that Audio Nirvana amp, yes? |
Mdemaio,
Bingo!
Look, this hobby (and industry) are full of colorful characters all over the place, and his confidence that there is simply nothing better out there - "the best speaker ever made, the best amp ever made" - well, take it for what it's worth.
Thanks for your understanding. |
Rebbi,
The AN decision isn't unusual, just basic quality tubes for stock use (these "plain jane" tubes can sound pretty good). It saves money as the premium 300b tubes aren't cheap. Well I think the Audio Nirvana represents an excellent value if it sounds as Mdemaio described. Audion Audio SET like sound for 1550.00 would be a significant achievement. I'm an open advocate for quality SET amplifiers. If one comes along and delivers good sound for this cost, that's a good thing for music lovers. |
Charles1dad,
Spoke with David at Common Sense Audio about modding the 300b amp. He opined that the whole modding thing is bullish*t. He said that they did many prototypes and listened to many different parts and simply chose the ones that sounded the best. He said, "yes, you can mod it, but it'll sound worse."
So there you go. |
Gsm18439,
Your comments about the sound of the 2a3 and 45 amp illustrate how important it is to hear these different tubes. Yes, the 2a3 and 45 ARE leaner sounding tubes. Both, particularly the 45, CAN actually deliver deeper bass than the 300b, but, neither have the big, fat, upper bass that so many listeners love about the 300b. Personally, I like the 2a3 and 45 more than the 300b because, in my system, the 300b sounds too bloated and lumpy in the bass range. I particularly like the 45, but for the very low output of that tube.
Rebbi,
If you are willing to take a little bit of a gamble, go with the interesting, low-cost alternatives mentioned here. If you want more of a sure thing, go with the Audionote kit. The kits are quite reasonably priced and Audionote provides good instructions on how to build them. I have heard most of their lineup of amps and they all sound very good. I have not heard a kit amp, but, a good friend of mine built their DAC4 kit and it is a particularly good DAC for the money. |
Rebbi,
Regarding David's comments, it isn't surprising. He may believe his carefully chosen parts yield the best sound and he may be right. Builders vary in their opinion on "upgrade" parts. He seems to suggest that aspect has been covered via listening/testing process. Speculation is all you have until you can personally listen. Mdemaio was certainly impressed and that's all we have to go by at this point. The 1000.00 cost difference(AN vs Audio Nirvana) represents established vs the new upstar factor. I get the sense David's amp "might" be more of an all out assault than the Bottlehead (only a gut feeling, nothing more). |
Charles1dad,
Did you mean Bottlehead or Audio Note in that last comment. |
Rebbi,
I meant Bottlehead. You had mentioned them earlier and pricewise they compete with the Audio Nirvana. I realize I did just pop them into my last post. I'm curious to see what you select from this strong list of contenders. |
Rebbi
I visit China three or four times each year - sometimes more. While I cannot attest to the wages and conditions of the workers used by the Commonsense manufacturer, the standard of living in China is no longer third world. I would not worry that you are contributing to oppression of the masses. Just the opposite.
As far as 300b tubes are concerned, however, you do have a point. Top of the line 300b tubes sound different and better and sweeter (and more linear) than stock tubes. But they are pricey. |
Larryi
I came to the conclusion that my speaker cable runs (estimated at 30 feet) contributed to the thin sound of the 45 and 2a3 amps. Plus Phil (213Cobra) is adamant that the Def 4s need more than just a a couple of watts. |
Ladies and gentlemen, We have a winnerÂ…
DRUMROLLÂ…
It'sÂ…
The Audio Note Kit 1 with a Three Input Switch and Upgraded Capacitors!
Thank you to everyone here for your help and for the marvelous education I have received from all of you!
Rebbi |
Nice choice. Enjoy, and Happy Thanksgiving! |
Hi Rebbi,
Congratulations! I believe you'll be very happy with your choice of the AN Kit. I think your final contenders were all worthy amplifiers. If anything I thought you were leaning towards the Audio Nirvana. What made the fine Audio Note you choice? I'm glad you're getting the better capacitors option. Get out the soldering iron. |
Gary,
+1 your China observation. Their standard of living has skyrocketed in the past 15-20 years. |
Rebbi, I think you have made a great choice. Please keep us all informed on how it goes. BTW, tube selection is part of the fun. A cautious buyer like you will be able to find some cost effective upgrades, 300b excepted. |
Charles,
Thank you for the good wishes.
Ultimately, there were several things that swayed me in this direction.
First, I did want to buy from an established company that would give me good service and support down the road. in addition, Charles, your advice to go for quality out of the gate made sense to me.
I also like the fact that the amplifier is easily upgradable down the road with parts that are certified by the manufacturer – there is an upgrade path. Maybe, a year from now, I will have saved up enough money for the fancy transformers – who knows?
I ruled out the bottle head kits because I really decided that I wanted a one piece, integrated solution. As it now stands, I have to flip five different switches just to play a CD, and I'm getting tired of it. :-) by the way, the cost of the bottle head Paramount amplifiers and their best preamplifier is basically the same as the cost of this Audio Note Kit, for what that's worth
I also like the fact that Brian from Audio Note was so willing to work with me on price. I am getting the nicer capacitors at something like 50% off retail, and he is also throwing in free shipping, which is worth $125. (The kit ships in two boxes, one for the transformers alone, and one for the tubes and the rest of the parts.) Brian told me that the transformers in this kit are really first rate – they are, as we have been saying, in many ways, the heart of the design and they need to be good. If memory serves, I think he told me that these transformers are worth around $200 a pop.
I did, by the way, ask him about the quality of the tubes. He said that they provide basic tubes because most people will choose to put in fancier stuff no matter what. He also said that sometimes people want to know if they can buy the kit without the tubes. But he doesn't want someone to risk, for example, expensive Western Electric tubes in an untested amplifier and see the tubes go up in smoke the first time they power the thing on. He also mentioned that Audio Note Kits is entering into an agreement with another company that will provide discounted tubes to Audio Note Kit customers, so that's great.
As for Commonsense Audio, I will say that I really enjoyed speaking with Dave, the proprietor. He's a very interesting guy. And I do hope that somebody who reads this thread will buy one of those amps so we can find out if they really are the bargain of the millennium. The fact that it seemed that he hadn't really thought through how such an amplifier was going to be serviced and that the warranty was only one year gave me pause. So, yes, I have paid a premium for the Audio Note Kit, but I feel good about it.
I do understand what you guys are saying about rising standards of living in China. As I said, I don't want to have this thread get caught up in that important and a complicated debate. But once again, I do appreciate all the advice you guys have given me and I will keep you posted when I start working on the amp! |
Congrats Rebbi,
You have more courage than me. For some reason I'm a bit snakebit when it comes to building amps from kit. Maybe it's my brothers fault. When we were teenagers I'd come from school and want to spin some tunes only to find the parts of the amp, preamp or turntable taken apart, parts laid out all over his bedroom floor. Something was almost always misplaced. I always had to retreat to my parents system, or go next door to an uncle's house to get a listening session in.
I believe you made an excellent decision, keep us updated on your progress. Stay calm, Go slow, measure twice, solder once...we are now vested in your success. Best, Rob |
Rebbi,
Enjoy the kit1. I borrowed a kit 1 a few years back and that was what ultimately pushed me toward a 300b amp of my own. I remember the day very well, it took about 5 minutes of listening to that amp to know that was the direction I wanted to go.. Congrats!!
Jet. |
Charles
I have been visiting China for almost 15 years, and your comment is spot-on. Not everyone, of course; and there is the problem. But Beijing has gone from a city of bicycles to a city of American and German cars. My many students have a standard of living no different from their US counterparts. |
BTW. . . Takatsuki 300b are now available on Amazon! |
Good choice. Sounds like a fun project ahead!
I built many a kit as a kid. Its the best way to truly understand how things work and a little education always goes a long way. |
Hi Rebbi,
Congratulations on your choice. A few months ago, I took delivery of a 10th Anniversary Kit One which I elected to have assembled by Digital Pete, who is officially sanctioned by ANK.
I think that you will be very happy. I have followed this thread off and on, but have been busy the last few days and missed some details. I see that you said upgraded capacitors...what brand would that be? I know Brian suggested Vcaps to me, but I went with recommendations from Charles and others here, and sent him 4 Jupiter Copper caps. Four of them cost about $260.
I also suggest that if it fits into your budget, you might upgrade the passive volume attenuator from the Alps model to the Khozmo, which they have available. It makes a difference.
I do not pretend to know much of anything about tubes, so I take advice from these forums and experts like Andy from Vintage Tube Services, and he advised me that the 300b tubes that come with it (Electro Harmonix) don't really sound bad at all, but that the 2 5687 tubes are important sonically. He suggested as the best replacement of the supplied GE NOS tubes (one of which already went microphonic on me and had to be replaced) would be Tung Sol 5687 skinny plates.
Eventually, I want to upgrade every tube, but it's not possible right now.
Anyway, coming from solid state McIntosh, and a few flirtations with push pull tubes, I am very happy with the sound. More organic and pure, quiet...yes, quiet! Easier to understand interplay of instruments, and, compared to what I am used to, more ambience where it exists in the recording. I guess like anything else, it's hard to describe an experience, but I am happy that I made the change, and I wish you luck.
Brian is really good to work with as well. |
Mikirob,
I remember having so much fun building the Bottlehead Seduction phono preamp. I don't get to work with my hands in my "normal" life and I find it very relaxing. And thanks for the good wishes.
Gsm,
Never occurred to me that Amazon.com sells tubes! We have one of their Visa cards that earns us points on Amazon, so I see some cheaper tube upgrades in my future. :-D |
Roxy 54,
This is great to hear, thanks for chiming in!
I am glad to hear as well that the 300b tubes are decent for a starter. I'm not sure what the brand of the caps is; in the invoice he describes it as "silver gold oil." So, we'll see.
I had also read somewhere that a better volume attenuator helps. I'll ask Brian. |
Rebbi,
Roxy54 gave you excellent advice regarding the volume control. This is an overlooked but important part affecting sound quality. Please get the best you can comfortably afford,you'd be surprised by the difference they make. Are you getting the Mundorf silver/gold oil caps or the Audio Note copper foil? I'm in no way telling you what to do, but if you get the good stuff/parts there's no looking back! You'll have a first rate 300b SET for just a few more dollars.
Again, congratulations.
Charles, |
Roxy54,
I googled the Khozmo attenuator and I suspect it's much better than the standard Alps volume control. |
Hi Charles,
Yes, I was lucky that by chance as I was getting this built, I happened upon a forum where the Khozmo was mentioned. I researched it further, and called Brian who had one and sent it to Pete the builder who had already installed the Alps. He took it out and put in the Khozmo. Apparently, it's a precision resistor ladder type of attenuator. Not the fanciest by any means, but very good for the money, and better sounding than the Alps.
Rebbi,
The caps that Brian is speaking of are Mundorf gold silver oil. They were the standard issue in my version. I would look into the Jupiters, again if it is within the limits of what you want to spend, because they are said by those who know a lot more than I do to compare favorably with the very expensive Duelund caps. I only know that it sounds very good, and didn't cost too much. Like you, I didn't want to do things twice. They fit into the amp very well with no strange accommodations needed. When I had Pete build the ANK 2.1 DAC for me, I specified Duelund caps, and he had to put them in a different place due to their large size.
|
Hi Roxy54,
No question that just those two changes(capacitors and volume control) improved your already fine SET amplifier. It's refreshing that Brian is open to the idea of using higher quality parts for his amplifiers. Roxy I'm certain that your amp sounds terrific.
Happy Thanksgiving to all of you.
Charles, |
Rebbi, As for stepped attenuators you can also check out Goldpoint. Around $150. As mentioned above it is one of the most important parts of your amp.
Jet. |
Thanks for all the good wishes and feedback, folks.
Corresponded with Brian again. (Very nice, very enthusiastic guy, by the way.)
I was confused at first because the web site says that the kit comes standard with Mundorf gold/silver/oil caps. Brian apologized and said that's an error on the site that he'll get fixed. The kit comes standard with Mundorf Supremes and the two upgrades they offer are the Mundorf Silver/Gold/Oil (which I'm getting) or the AN Copper. I checked on Partsconnexion.com and the Mundorf Supremes go for about $15 each but the Silver/Gold/Oils go for about $60 each... bottom line is he's giving me about an $80 discount off retail on the better caps.
As for the volume attenuator, it's going to have to wait. I really do have to stick to my budget. As I'm sure some of you can relate, this audio adventure takes place in the context of a family that needs to be sheltered, educated, clothed and fed. ;-)
I mentioned upgrading the volume pot to Brian and he said that it's about a $200 upgrade and that I should just talk to him when I'm ready to do it but that it's "not worth it now." Also, the kit comes with a nice PCB for the stock pot, which he recommends for a first-time install. |
Ah, and one other interesting wrinkle. I see that Partsconnexion offers bundled upgrade kits for AN kits. For example, there's this Kit 1 tube upgrade bundle:
300B-Z Shuguang Treasure
6SN7 (CV181, ECC32)
Sylvania 5U4G/VT244 (NOS)
5687 Tungsol (NOS)
Bundle price: $536.18, about $95 off retail |
Rebbi,
Brian sounds like a fair and reasonable person. If the budget is tight currently that's understood. It certainly isn't a life or death matter to get all upgrades at once, there's plenty of time. The point is that you're starting with a very solid foundation with a proven product, you did well. Okay, time for some NFL fun.For the 3 games today I'm picking Lions,Cowboys and Seahawks. |
Enjoy your Thanksgiving, Charles. Not a big football fan (which, here in Texas, is heresy) but do enjoy your day and thanks for all your help and advice. :-) |
Happy Thanksgiving everyone,
Charles, I'll take the Eagles over the Cowboys, agree on the others. My Giants are currently a Sad Sack team, how does that happen so fast?
Rebbi, that is a nice Tube bundle from Parts Connection. I have experience with both Black Treasures (300B, cv181). The price is also very good. |
