My gut feeling is that the Glow is a good sounding SEP (single ended pentode, el84) and likely a step above the Dennis Had offerings. The Glow weighs 14.3 pounds, uses small amounts of NFB anc has solid state rectification. The Dynamo weighs 22 pounds, zero NFB and is tube rectified. The Dynamo's 50% weight gain is in all likelihood bigger and heftier transformers. As had been noted before, transformer quality and capacity can make or break these single ended amplifiers. It would be very worthwhile to compare these two differently designed amplifiers in the same system. Design differences aside, I'd like to hear what distinguishes one from the other.
Charles, |
The GLOW also has the cool glowing color ring around the volume that changes color. :^)
My app would be as a headphone amp for both STAX and conventional phones and to perhaps try with my Triangle Titus XS speakers in my wife's sunroom, where small and inconspicuous works best.
Currently the Triangles run off my main system downstairs via in-wall speaker wiring. I have a dedicated setup for the Stax in my family room running off a 70s vintage Yamaha receiver fed by Squeezebox Touch that works quite well, but I would love to hear it with a really good sounding tube amp. |
Mapman,
That glowing color ring is a compelling feature and could be a must have for some buyers.
Charles, |
Charles the gentleman owns Coincident speakers, I'm not sure which model but that might help put things in perspective. Of course this is second hand hearsay testimony but I would add from a very reliable and trustworthy source. |
Tubegroover,
If you're interested in SET amplifiers with more power than a 300b provides, the LM 518ia and Coincident Turbo 845 are serious built and executed choices. Yes they're heavy beasts and for good reason, major power supply and transformers to properly handle the demands of the high voltage 845 tube. I'd really relish the opportunity to hear these two A/B directly. I suspect that they are both truly excellent sounding SETs if you need roughly 25 watts of power. Both use the 300b as the driver tube, these are high value amplifiers when you consider the total package they offer. |
Correction,
The Line Magnetic 219ia has the 300b driver not the 518ia. |
Tim Smith,
If you are still following this thread I have some suggested recordings you may like. On my system page date 10/18/2014 I listed some jazz guitarists CDs (you may have these already).
Four more to consider.
Kenny Burrell, "Bluesy Burrell" and "Midnight Blue".
Wes Montgomery, "Full House" and "Wes Montgomery Trio"
Charles, |
Indeed they are high value amplifiers Charles. Unfortunately they are a bit too large and heavy and I would be inclined more towards mono blocks of more managable size if I were to consider an SET. I have an audio buddy with a Mastersound integrated 845 SET with 2 845s per channel, which I've listened to many times. It weighs in the neighborhood of 130 lbs and puts out about 35 watts, a real beast. As I have previously stated, as much as I love the wonderful things that SETs do so well I do note their limitations, at least for me and in the set-ups I've heard. Like Mapman said it would probably take a very large full range efficient system to realize the potential, particularly in the bass but it seems you have the right formula with your speaker choice and amps. Though an SET might work satisfactorly for some in a main system for my musical taste and listening biases, I'm not so certain, at least with the Decapos. I would have to go in a different direction. As it stands now I have no desire or intention to do so but would just love to hear, maybe I would change my mind. As things stand now I am VERY satisfied, but one never knows what turns are in store in the future. |
Tubegroover,
Understood, if you're happy there's no need for change.
Charles, |
Can someone who has handled one of the Coincident Dynamo 34SE amps comment on the build quality? |
Hi Rebbi,
The build quality is high. A mini tank. You will be able to pass this amp on to your grandchildren.
My BlackTreasure 6CA7 tubes finally arrived from Grant Fidelity on Monday. I've been burning them in since then. I can already hear that they are going to be better than the Gold Lion KT77, RFT Simens NOS EL34 and Shuguang EL34B. Will report later as they continue to burn in. In my system the bass has been extremely good, a SET that rocks. Not slow, syrupy. The PRaT has been right on. This is not hyperbole. |
I am rereading this thread again, and want to thank all of you for the extraordinarily useful information contained herein!
Still leaning toward one of the Decware amps. Again, it'll depend on how much I get for my Manley gear... the Mahi's are currently for sale on Audiogon by the way.
But y'know... I was taking another look at the AudioNote kits. Their basic 300b kit runs $2200, while the tricked out version of the same amp with the fancy-pants transformers and premium parts runs $3450.
Anybody heard these? |
Keep us posted on your new amp Rebbi, I'd be most interested in your impressions with the Decapos. |
Rebbi,
Roxy54 has a AN kit 300b with the upgraded output transformers and Jupiter Cu foil capacitors, he loves it. I would say if comes down to how much do you want to spend? Now it becomes value at a given price point.
1) Dynamo/Decware 1200.
2) AN Kit 300b 2200-3450.
3)Frankenstein 6000.
All represent money well spent at their respective cost cost.
Charles, |
I am rereading this thread again, and want to thank all of you for the extraordinarily useful information contained herein!
Still leaning toward one of the Decware amps. Again, it'll depend on how much I get for my Manley gear... the Mahi's are currently for sale on Audiogon by the way.
But y'know... I was taking another look at the AudioNote kits. Their basic 300b kit runs $2200, while the tricked out version of the same amp with the fancy-pants transformers and premium parts runs $3450.
Anybody heard these? |
Oops... accidental repost.... wish Audiogon had a way to delete your own posts! |
I don't think I'd go this route, myself, but Audio Space makes this little guy: http://www.gini.com/index.php?id=300bmkiiAnybody know anything about Audio Space in general or this amp in particular? Underwood sells this one for under $1800. |
Rebbi, I think it is worth revisiting one very important remark in this long(ish) thread:
"10-07-14: Charles1dad
Hi Seikosha,
The limiting factors are the quality of your transformers and the stiffness of the power supply section."
Why is this important? Because - I believe - that a lot of times when people talk about an amp "running out of power" it is more a function of the power supply's ability to store/deliver power to the output tube than the amp's stated wpc. This is especially true in SET amps.
That's why we find that one 8wpc 300B SET amp can drive a specific set of speakers louder without stress than others. The transformers also play a big part in why one amp may seem to "dig deeper" or have better bass than another amp rated at exactly the same wpc.
Let me recommend Art Audio amps - across the board, this company is famous for building SET amps that drive speakers far beyond what their ratings suggest. The company prides itself on building each with an incredibly robust power supply. I've personally owned their PX-25(6 wpc) and Jota (300B/ 20 wpc).. Look up the reviews of these amps, they are some of the best...and expensive. (though, there is a used PX-25 here on A'Gon for $2.5k - a steal)
The 6 wpc PX-25 is one of the finest SET amps I have ever heard. It is truly a "reference" level component. One pro reviewer summed it up best by say saying notes sound "as if they were lit from within". It played with delicacy and power. Richness and purity. And for giggles. I even ran my 89dB/4 ohm(not a good match for SET) Jean Marie Reynaud Twins mkII moniors with it fairly often. It really didn't have much trouble at low to moderate levels. Not a lot of bass, but the mids and highs were pretty damned good at low levels.
The Jota(KR 300BXLS or AV 320B SL tubes) and especially the high-current version at 24wpc (KR VV32B tubes) will likely do really well with your speakers. Check out the professional reviews of these amps, they kick ass. |
I also learned that as a past, direct sale customer of Reference 3A, I might be able to get a break on the Antique Sound Labs AQ 1005 MARK II DT. Anybody know this amp? |
I like having a sub output as an option for a set. That would help open up more possibilities for a SET amp.
One thing I would consider were it me with any tube amp is how hard the tubes are driven which factors into how often they will likely need to be replaced. This can vary quite a bit from amp to amp from what I read. |
Reb, I see a $3000 list price on the antique web site yet saw another listing on the web for just over $1000, so based on that limited exposure, I'm wondering how much that unit is really worth? Agon blue book might be an indicator. |
|
Hi-Fi Haiku:
Single ended triode
Glowing and warm are the tubes
Lush, retro midrange |
I own two low-wattage pushpull amps: a 5 wpc amp using two 349 tubes per channel and a 4 watt amp using two 45 tubes per channel, and I own a parallel SET amp that puts out 6 wpc from two 2a3 tubes per channel. All of these amps deliver adequate levels of power for my 99 db/w speakers. I do suspect that I am hearing some slight compression from these amps running out of gas (sound becomes a bit muddled and lacking in clarity) only when I play choral music at high volume.
If the Reference speakers turn out to be substantially lower than 92 db/w in efficiency, there may be some concern with having adequate power from low-powered triode SETs, such as ones utilizing a 300b tube. SETs utilizing higher power tubes, such as the 845 or 211 tend to be a bit more costly and I would be a bit concerned with any "bargain" amp that is operated at the higher voltage levels required for such amps.
With respect to some of the amps mentioned above, I have heard the Art Audio PX 25 and Jota amps used with several different speakers and I like these amps; I don't know if they are "bargains," but they were good sounding. I have also heard an Audio Space pushpull amp that was very good for the money both in terms of sound and quality of construction. I heard two different Decware amps (I can't remember the models) that were in a shop as trade-ins. I only heard them briefly in a setup that was hardly optimized to show them off, so I don't have any sort of solid take on these amps; what I did hear was quite disappointing--too lifeless and wimpy sounding.
My experience with more reasonably priced SET amps is somewhat limited, but from what I have heard, it would not be that easy to achieve better sound from such amps than what the Manley Mahi will deliver without paying substantially more for the SET amp. Good SET amps are not cheap (output transformers have to be bigger and more expensive than pushpull transformers to perform well),and higher powered SET amps using transmitting tubes or parallel output tubes are particularly expensive.
Also, I would suggest trying an output transformerless (OTL) amp with the Reference speaker. While Reference speakers are already quite lively sounding, a good OTL would ramp that quality up even more and that would be something special. |
Larryi,
Interesting perspective. Thank you for your thoughts. |
By the way, I was searching online forums and found a post where this guy bought a Decware "Rachael" amp to potentially replace his Manley Mahi's and reported that "within one song he knew the Decware blew the Mahi away." Just one person's experience but interesting to read. |
Rebbi,
What speakers was that guy using? Decapos as well? |
Also I wonder what the song was? If a chamber work, probably not a big challenge. If a symphony, Rush, Metallica, or a well recorded big band, I wonder if outcome would be the same? |
Map,
I don't know the answers to those questions because now I cannot find that post.
I'm not worried that the De Capo's can be driven to satisfying levels with an EL34-based SET amp. My room is medium small and I don't tend to listen at live-concert levels. And Tash Goka of Reference 3A told me that the Antique Sounds Lab 8 watt 300B SET was basically developed with the De Capo in mind. Plus, if you go back and read Tim Smith's Coincident Dynamo review on 6moons, he says that the Dynamo played satisfyingly "big" even on his less efficient Harbeth's.
So at this point I'm not worried about "if" SET, but "which" SET! |
As to which one to get without the opportunity to listen to any of them with the Decapos and your budget constraints, I would look at the ones with the heftiest transformers. As has been pointed out, one of the biggest factor in SET designs, what separates the budget from the pricier ones, is the power supply and transformer. This will manifest itself in better dynamics and improved low frequency performance. Over time this may be the area where by going budget you will recognize the sacrifice of performance in these areas. This is MY impression having listened to numerous SET amps in different set-ups, there is no free lunch unless you go with a more efficient speaker. The fact that you listen primarily to small scale music in a small room may mitigate this to some degree. |
Agree with TG.
I have only heard SETs perform to the max with very high efficiency horns to-date, over 100db efficient, similar to Avantgarde Trio.
I heard one set fall short with Zu Essence speakers once at a show. Not with the music demoed (small scale jazz and classical works) but with music I requested as a test (Rush). This was in a typical hotel-sized guest room, not large. The lack of dynamics was noticeable even at moderate volume to me.
DeCapos are less efficient than Zu I think.
So any of these may well work in many cases, but seems to me the beefier designs will have the one-up. |
Rebbi, BTW, after the Zu/SET demo with some challenging rock music, the ZU guy doing the demo admitted the amp was underpowered for the task most likely. I wish I could remember what amp exactly was used, but do not. I don't think it was any of the main contenders here.
It registered to me that Zu seemed more interested in marketing how well their speakers can do with a flea powered amp than they were with showing them off at their best.
On the other hand, I heard a Jolida FX10 do very well running a small pair of Nola monitors another time, with sound that hit way above what I expected. However, those were small monitors with limited low end extension and I think that was the difference. Your DeCapos are much bigger hitters in terms of low frequency extension I believe and I think that is where the challenge will come in some cases, if its something that might matter for you.
The compromise I hear in lesser cases is more about dynamics than volume, though certainly volume can be an issue as well. |
Well, Rebbi, your head seems to be spinning in the typical audiophile conundrum, what to do? I say this in a well-meaning way. It is really difficult to know which way to go when you can't listen to audio prospects in your own room. Budget restraint often compound the problem. Few brick and mortar stores don't help either. So, when do you take the bungy jump?
You've had a lot of good feedback on this thread. I think Tim Smith's review was spot on concerning the Coincident Dynamo. Brownsfan and I backed up his review. Of course neither one of us own the De Capo's. The caution by Almarg about the ”real measurements” of your speakers gave me a pause. But I will say this: I have heard the DeCapo's many times in friends homes (the older version) and they are all that you have expressed. Terrific speaker. I like my Tektons much, much, more. They are less expensive, more efficient, go much deeper with quality bass, dynamic, outstanding midrange and throw a very wide coherent soundstage. Recently I have played these speakers with Cary V12, preamps Cary SLP98, Audible Illusions Mod 3, Cary SEI 300B, Primaluna Dialogue One with upgraded NOS tubes. I have also listened to my brother's Leben 600 amp with Harbeth HLF5, the Jolida FX10 with Tekton 4.5s and some others. The Tekton Lores and M-Lores with Coincident Dynamo sounds as good or better than all these combos. The differences are in small degree. And the Coincident with the Shuguang Black Treasure 6CA7 tubes, Mullard 5AR4, Sylvania 6SL7 WGT military tubes or RCA red base are killer.
When you asked the original question of ”best bargin” I assumed
fairly low amount of money, like less than $2,000. Is that the case? It seems
that posters are now mentioning much more costly SET amps.
In any case I hope you find what ticks all your boxes.
Best, Rabi |
Rebbi,
As long as you go into this venture with the right frame of mind--you are willing to experiment and accept an unfavorable result and willing to accept a bit of financial loss if the choice does not work out--I say by all means do the experiment. It might well be the case that you will enjoy the attributes of the low-powered SET with 95% of your music and will only have to accept some compromise with playing a few recordings. So many factors are at play that it is hard to predict the result and trial is absolutely necessary.
|
"your head seems to be spinning in the typical audiophile conundrum"
YEs, that is the curse that goes along with all this. What's best? What will work best? What is best value? What to do?
So many choices. The good news is they are all mostly good ones. What's best depends on goals (and often budget).
If money is no issue, its not a problem.
If it is, then best thing to do is start with trying a less expensive option that seems likely to meet the goals. Buy used from a trusted seller so as to have confidence and not overpay. Then if things do not work out, sell and repeat process until you hit the bulls eye.
Nothing new here, just reiterating. Its really the best way to go. The main prerequisites are patience and some extra time spent tweaking gear along teh way. |
Rebbi,
This thread has generated nearly 300 posts and most have been quite helpful. One correction, Brownsfan did hear your speaker with the Dynamo and was very pleased. Do you have an absolute spending ceiling? |
Hi Rebbi,
Just as a reminder given the size of this thread. On 8/26/2014 Brownsfan gave you a very detailed listening impression of "four" different amplifiers with your DeCapo speakers. He also provided a follow up up post that same day. It's encouraging that the speaker's builder strongly approves of SET use(part of the design objective). |
Brownsfan ;
Are you still here ?
I have a question that you may be able to answer.
What is the difference , in sound , between the Dynamo and the Franks within the constraints of the Dynamo's ability ?
In other words , what is the difference between the 300B and the EL-34 in as close to the same circuit as one may find in the market place ?
Thank You |
Hi, Guys,
Wow... I am away from the forums for a few days and come back to find all these great new posts. You are all awesome. And this is beginning to feel like a midpoint somewhere between tech support and psychotherapy. :-D
Okay, yes, I am making myself nuts over this, admittedly. But since people still seem interested, here's where I am.
My Shrimp preamp and Mahi mono-blocks have now sold. I have a budget of roughly $2300-2400 to work with. That's absolutely maximum, no wiggle room. Of course, I don't HAVE to spend that much, but it's my upper limit.
Here are my options at that point:
1) Coincident Dynamo 34SE. Advantages: great reviews, assurance from Israel Blume himself that it'll drive the De Capo's with no trouble and Brownsfan seems to concur. Point-to-point wiring. Pretty cosmetics. Weight 22 lbs., suggesting hefty transformers and power supply (although some of that is probably also due to stainless steel chassis.) Available immediately. Downsides: only one input, necessitating cable swapping to go from turntable to DAC. Sense that rectifier tube is crappy and needs to be upgraded. Price, $1299 shipped.
2) Decware SE 34I.4, aka "Rachael." Advantages: hand made to order, including ability to dictate some aesthetic choices, capacitor and other upgrades and number of inputs. Point-to-point wiring. Burned in and voiced with actual, shipped tubes. Lifetime warranty. Decware known for amazing "holography" and a certain "etherial" quality. 30-day money-back guarantee, although, with 10% restock fee and return shipping, I'd stand to lose around $225 if I returned the amp. Downsides: lack of professional reviews (although great customer feedback online). "Light" (?) at 18 lbs - Steve Deckert swears by his proprietary transformers and says that they're so efficient and well designed that they don't have to weigh a ton to sound great. Current wait time running 3-4 weeks.
3) Antique Sound Labs AQ 1005 DT, which I can get at a nice discount within my budget as a previous Reference 3A/Divergent Technology customer. 300b based with volume remote control and 4 or 5 inputs. Point-to-point wiring. Designed for the De Capo. Heavy beast... 55 lbs., I think, suggesting robust transformers, etc. Disadvantages: no reviews I've been able to find. Resale value uncertain. Designed in Hong Kong and made in China... not a deal breaker, but something I was hoping to avoid.
And here are a few "left field" possibilities:
4) Bottlehead Paramount 1.1 monoblocks, kit. Price around $1700, preamp still needed, but could add a Bottlehead pre for not that much money. Assembly needed. 300b based. I've built a Bottlehead kit before, but this one is pretty complex. Sound quality and synergy with De Capo's is a guess.
5) Audio Note basic 300b Kit 1, 2014 edition. Great aesthetics for a DIY project, and I'd guess the best resale value of any kit. Available with 3-input option for $2325. Kit seems fairly easy to build. Tricked out "C-core" kit with fancier transformers and caps is, unfortunately, over budget at $3525. No track record with De Capo.
6) Art Audio PX-25 amp with volume control and 1 input currently for sale on Audiogon. Seller wants $2800 (original price something like $6000) but might come down given no sale yet. ;-) Supposed to be reference level, according to reviews.
Okay... what'cha think? Determined to make a choice this week and get on with my life. ;-) |
I think buy the one you like best. |
Saki, I'm still lurking. I'm pretty busy now maintaining two houses and trying to get the new one set up for my wife and dogs.
Your question is hard to answer. I'm fairly articulate,but I may need to resort to some analogies.
I have a nice little red accord couple with a 6 speed manual and a V6 engine. It's fun to drive and it scoots pretty good. Compare it to a red porche 911. Also fun to drive and scoots pretty good. If you got Porche money, go for it. If you have accord money, it's a great car. Be happy and have fun.
Or how about this. Look at a print of a Monet, then go to a museum and look at the original. Then try to explain to someone who has seen neither why the original is worth millions and the print is worth $1.98.
Same way with the amps. If you have 1300,go for the dynamo. If you have 6k go for the Frank's.
The dynamo is in my opinion, a real achievement. If high voltage and current is not a requirement, it will play in the same league as amps costing more.
But the Frank's are something special. They convey music with a beauty that is to die for. |
Rebbi, regarding the Dynamo's lack of input switching, I would suggest that you consider using it in conjunction with Decware's $329 passive switchbox. Both my technical instincts and my extensive experience with a lesser switchbox some years ago tell me that doing so would result in zero sonic compromise, at least in anything less than a vastly more expensive system. And for the additional interconnects that would be required, consider Mogami 2534-based cable from Markertek, in whatever length is necessary. I and a number of other A'goners have used it with excellent results. Mogami 2534 is also the de facto cable of choice in the majority of studio and other professional applications, when terminated in a balanced configuration. Regards, -- Al |
Rebbi,
You've done your homework based on the list of amplifier contenders.There isn't a bad choice among them and very likely anyone of them would make you happy long term. You're at a point where ther's little left to add, listening is the next step. The Dynamo with a small investment for switchbox and better recrifier tube is high value choice.
For more money you step into the realm of DHT tubes (300b and PX 25). The Art Audio PX 25 gets nothing but raves and for 2800.00 (or less) is a truly good deal IMHO.The Art Audio is said to use very good transformers and power supply. Me, I'd spend more and get the pure DHT Art Audio. I'm a buy what's really good and keep it very long term type of guy.
Charles, |
Charles,
I think I'm going to have to let the Art Audio piece go. The seller told me that one of the PX 25 tubes is humming, and a little research seems to suggest that "cheap" PX 25 tubes (new, not NOS) are going for $500+ for a matched pair. That's a substantial added expense for me.
Given that you have a fondness for DHT tubes like the 300b, would you take a look at the ASL or even the Audio Note kit?
Steve |
Steve,
of course, I think each of your candidates are very good amplifiers. Based on your list I felt the Art Audio have the highest level of part and built quality(and a bargain at 2800). To get similar quality output transformers in the AN Kit requires the C Core upgrade IMO. I certainly believe the "standard" AN Kit 300b is no doubt good quality. That's the thing, the higher level transformers just don't come cheap! The Frankenstein is 6K, but this cuys you custom Japanese double C Cores for the output,power and the interstage transformers. That's a lot of ultra quality iron.
I know less about the ASL amplifier but have read that they're good. Your speaker builder sure likes them so that counts for something. The AN Kit option leaves room for future upgrades if desired.If the transformer are too much money, I'd give serious consideration to at least getting upgraded capacitors if possible. Based on my experience these parts really do matter and will provide improved sound quality. Keep in mind Steve that DHT tubes are much more expensive than el34 types. However DHT tubes generally last a very long time(10K hours or more depending on amp circuit and operation points chosen).DHT are the oldest and more simpler design tubes but they make beautiful music in a well implemented amplifier. It will be a different presentation compared to your push pull Manley. Better sounding? that will be for you to decide, they are for me.
Charles, |
I have friends with Art Audio amps, very good product, but given your budget restraint tubes will cost you, no matter what 300B you decide on. Almarg provided you with a great solution for more inputs for the Dynamo. As Tim Smith wrote, re-tubing the Dynamo is only a $100 expense for all the tubes. I would spend slightly more. Get the new rectifier from Gold Lion or Mullard.
At any rate, you need to get whatever floats your boat. Collectively A'gon members have given you a boat load of good advice. Good luck. Best, Rob. |
Brownsfan ;
Thank you so much for your reply .
I don't mean to be a pest but ...
I did not mean for you to compare the Dynamo to the Frankenstein per se .
I wanted to get your take on the difference , in sound characteristics , between an EL-34 tube and a 300B tube in the same type of SET circuit . I figured that because these two amps were designed and built by the same artist that this would be about as fair of a comparison as is possible for these two 'different' tubes in the same type of circuit .
If you would be so kind .
Thank you |
Saki,Got it. There are others on this thread that could better answer your question. I am rather new to tube amps.
Further, I wouldn't generalize based on the dynamo and the Frank's. They are both Israel's designs, but there are huge differences in transformers, driver tubes, etc.
For what it is worth, which is not much, I'd say the dynamo is a bit more of a classic tube sound. Lots of midrange bloom. The franks have a richness and harmonic sophistication across the frequency spectrum that is unique in my experience.
I encourage others with more experience to contribute their thoughts. |
Brownsfan ,
You are correct. Differences are more than output tube. The Frankenstein has the advantage of bigger and better transformers and power supply as well as better parts, this is very significant. The Dynamo is an excellent budget conscious amp. The Franks are Israel Blume's all out statement SET quest. Very different objectives, the Franks are honestly sublime amplifiers. |
Charles, can you offer any general thoughts on el34 vs. 301b designs? It is an interesting question. |
