Rebbi,
Bottle head compared to AN Kit which one has better parts and power supply? |
Rebbi,
To the best of my knowledge all Coincident products are made in Canada.You can email them to be certain. |
In hindsight I just realized I may be talking about a different model amplifier. The one I heard in Las Vegas last year retailed for about $10,000. |
Hi George,
Thanks for your reply. My SET uses double C-core transformers. I don't know how they compare /contrast to R core types.Regarding your choice of amplifiers, that's what I love about High End audio. There's something available for all of our preferences.
Charles. |
Bill,
As a "Brownsfan", you had better watch out for those "bears" they can be dangerous. "Dreams do come true", Bill I agree with that. We have more control over the path and outcome of our lives if initiative is exercised rather than expecting someone to do it for us. You've obviously figured that out and are enjoying your life.
Charles, |
Sebrof summed it up well, it just depends on what you like (simple
statement but true). My speakers are 94 db/14 ohms so pretty close to your
speaker's sensitivity. I've used three amplifiers with them.
40 watt el34 push pull (PP), 100 W ultralinear (PP)/60W triode mode (PP)
and an 8 W SET 300b. The SET is unquestionably the best sounding of the
three amplifiers. Just my experience, your taste or desires could be very
different from mine and you'd choose accordingly.
Once caution about SETs, don't try to go "too cheap" seeking
value. These amplifiers need good quality output transformers and stout
power supplies to maximize their very simple but excellent sounding
circuits. Poor quality parts and transformers won't get it done and you'll
just be disappointed. If your speaker is an easy load, a well lmplemented
high quality SET can make that speaker sing.
Good luck to you.
Charles, |
Hi Brownsfan,
I was recently wondering how these DeCapo BEs compare to the Coincident Triumph Extreme II, both are highly respected stand monitors.
Israel Blume said that despite the lower cost of the Dynamo it has good output transformers. I'm interested in how it and the Dennis Had amplifiers compare in your opinion. Brownsfan, it seems like you're having a ball of fun with your system these days.
Charles, |
Rebbi,
Brownsfan has three SET amps he's going to audition with your same speaker, that seems very worthwhile for your search.Power ratings can be misleading, quality of design and built can trump mesured specifications sometimes.
Line Magnetic is another brand you may want to consider in addition to ASL. |
John,
This is what I mean, these low power amps cover a wide spectrum from poor to sublime performance.Some have said the Had amps lack good quality transformers(I have no personal knowledge to confirm or deny). I sure wouldn't judge SET/SEP amps on this one example. This is why I believe Brownsfan's three amplifier comparison driving the same speaker is going to be quite interesting.All 3 with the same power rating but very different design and parts quality approach.
Charles, |
Hello George,
880.00 is an exceptionally low cost for a 300b SET and a total amplifier
weight of "19 pounds" is very light. This would suggest that the
transformers are quite small and compact. Most high quality 300b amps
are considerably heavier due to the robust and heavy duty transformers
and power supply they require. These factors are the heart and soul of
SETs and separate the excellent from the mediocre. Given your familiarity
with this brand, how good is their drive capacity and sound quality across
the full frequency spectrum? I'm curious as really good 300b SETs don't
come dirt cheap. At least that's been my experience so far. I'm not implying
amplifier weight is the sole factor, however transformer and power supply
size and quality are crucial for successful SET performance. Just a relative
comparison, my SET has a total weight of 68 pounds for the same 8 watts.
Look at the weight of Line Magnetic, Border Patrol, Viva, Mastersound,
,Wavelength and other highly regarded SET models. Could this small amp
be a David amongst SET Goliaths?
Thanks George,
Charles, |
Mikirob
The Mullard 378 rectifier is a superb match in the Frankenstein. This is Noteworthy because the sound is excellent with the stock 5U4G tube. The 378 provides across the board improvement without trade offs . |
George,
I appreciate that explanation about R core transformers. I'm going to do
some reading and get a basic understanding of the various transformer
types. My amplifier builder definitely prefers double C core. Certainly each
person would cite the advantages of their respective transformer choice. As
usual, implementation and execution matter significantly regardless of the
transformer selected.
Shakeydeal,
You're right regarding the volume control settings and usable range.
Amplifier sensitivity, gain, speaker sensitivity and preamp gain level (also
source voltage output) are all important variables.
For an example, very high sensitivity amplifier input voltage =0.5v.
A low sensitivity amplifier input voltage=3.0v.
Charles, |
Brownsfan,
I appreciate the effort, time and patience it requires to carefully compare
three different amplifiers with a speaker and listening to multiple
recordings, thank you. My gut feeling for the Dennis Had amp's diminished
bass region and symphonic music performance is traceable to the power
supply and transformer quality. The Dynamo and the Had amplifier have
identical watt ratings yet you noticed a considerable performance gap
favoring the Dynamo. The Frankenstein's higher level outcome isn't
surprising, it doesn't have the cost constraints and can utilize superior
parts(and bigger/better transformers) without that concern. Symphonic
music at 99 db SPL peaks
presented "cleanly" with the monitor sized 92 db sensitive
deCapo is very impressive. Interesting your comments in comparing it to
the 500 watt Cary SS amplifier in terms of driving this speaker. The brand
new Dynamo should get quite a bit better with adequate burn in and better
tubes as you noted. |
Rebbi,
It seems you have a number of very good options and the blessings of your speaker's builder(recommending the ASL 300b SET) as regards to SET/SEP amplifiers. The key take home point is "quality" of the particular amplifier as Brownsfan confIrmed with his listening results. You will obtain exceptional sound quality driving your deCapo with the appropriate SET or SEP(Dynamo or the Decware).The marvelous Frankenstein(6K) may be overkill for your stated goal(bargain price).I have a bias/preference for DHT tubes over pentode tubes but that's just me. The SEPs are generally less expensive than a good SET(DHT).Either way, you will do fine.
Charles, |
Gsm18439(Gary),
Yep, Just looking at the number of watts can be misleading. There's certainly more to take into consideration. Amplifier- speaker matching can be very specific.
Charles, |
"It's shockingly good for the money"
Brownsfan, one might get the impression you like this amplifier, LOL.
Would it be fair to call it a Frankenstein jr? Or son of Frankenstein?
Charles, |
Brownsfan,
Thanks for the clearly described differences of these two amplifiers by the same builder. Definitely "good" vs "stunningly good".
Charles, |
Tube rolling can result in sound performance improvements but won't make up for inadequate transformers and power supplies. I believe that this accounts for the big difference between the Dynamo and Dennis Had amplifiers. Brownsfan, does the Dynamo feel heavier or more substantial?
Charles, |
Hi Brownsfan,
I suspected that was a major difference between the two amplifiers. It would certainly explain the Had amp's failure you heard with bass frequencies and dynamic symphonic music.Wimpy power supplies /transformers are a recipe for disappointment. |
Mikirob,
I don't have the Dynamo amplifier(I own the Frankenstein MK II). Brownsfan's unit is brand new, he hasn't gotten to the tube rolling stage yet. |
Hi Mikirob,
I trust Brownsfan's ears/impressions and believe that you'll be very pleased with your Dynamo-M Lore pairing.
You have a very good list of speaker choices, the Frankenstein should match well with any of them. The Line Magnetic 755 field coil is intriguing.
Charles, |
Hi Rebbi,
I wish you well and hope you get the same good results with the Decware as Brownsfan has with his Dynamo.Good Luck,
Charles, |
Brownsfan,
Thanks.
The respect and appreciation is mutual.
Charles, |
Ddd1,
I am also an advocate for high efficiency easy to drive speakers. If you have followed this thread closely it's very apparent that Brownsfan and other contributors here report excellent results with their deCapo and SET/SEP amplifiers. As I and others have pointed out, simply looking at a amplifier's power specification isn't the whole story. Certainly a "good" quality 20 watt amplifier would be a fine match with this speaker but not necessarily represent "better", a viable alternative, yes. Brownsfan's clear detailed impressions of the Dynamo and deCapo pairing are quite convincing.
I believe that often too much emphasis is on power and not enough
attention given to an amplifie's actual design, built quality and
implementation. Brownsfan said in an earlier post that he could make the
case that his 8 watt Frankenstein SET drove the speaker better than his
500 watt Cary SSamp. In specific situations and pairings this isn't
surprising. Some speakers need more powerful amplifiers to perform their
best. Other speakers need high quality not power quantity to perform at
their best. With my current speakers my 8 watt SET "completely" outperformed my 40 watt push pull in sound quality.8 watts is 1/5 the power of 40 watts however these 8 watts are just superior sounding. Moral of the story, it all depends on individual amp and speaker matching rather than blanket proclamations about power.
Charles, |
Hi Mikirob,
Congratulations on acquiring the Coincident Dynamo amplifier, I'm sure it will contribute to making beautiful music in your home . I'll take the liberty of speaking for Brownsfan and say we both welcome you to the Coincident family.
Charles, |
Mikirob,
When I bought my Coincident Frankenstein 5 years ago it took me down a wonderful path of no return, profound musical joy and realism. I hope that your experience is as sublime as mine.
Charles, |
Mikirob,
What speakers will you use with you future Frankenstein and CSL combo ?
Charles, |
Brownsfan,
Congratulations on the out of state move and new home. I hope you and your wife enjoy this for many happy years. Hiking the hills and mountains in that state will keep you healthy and fit.
Charles, |
Bill,
I nodded my head in agreement and smiled while reading your comments about true timbre reproduction. Tone,timbre,harmonics and overtones are exactly my litmus test for the truly excellent components. Coincident does nail this crucial area.The Frankenstein MK II on my very first listen exceeded all previous amplifiers I'd heard up to that point. It's interesting when you listen in rooms at CES that many highly touted components don't get this right IMO.There's is a real difference between naturalness, realism and pure musicality vs the ultra detailed hifi "accurate" sound.I have no desire for the latter approach.They really are two different worlds.
Charles, |
Bill,
That's the beauty of High End audio, variety. Within this small niche there's an abundance of choice among audio equipment to suit many tastes and goals. I know you're as happy to have found yours as I am. The key is you have to know what type of music reproduction you want.
Charles, |
Hi Mrmb,
Your experience with those amplifiers isn't that unusual.Some speakers sound better with tubes(this includes bass) and others sound better with SS amplifiers. Speaker design and intent are everything. Some SS amps produce over damped bass due to their high damping factor(DF). On the other hand some speakers need this high DF to perform their best. People who suggest higher power amps as the "cure all" for any speaker issues are wrong. There is no universal power amplifier to fit all needs.I believe your son would be very happy with a good quality SET with his speakers.
Charles, |
Rebbi,
Some level of NFB may be necessary depending on the speaker you choose. NFB will I believe result in a lower output impedance for an amplifier(and likely increase the damping factor, DF). This is advantagous for some speakers.Most SET amplifiers use DHT tubes which are inherently linear and don't require NFB as pentode tubes and transistors often do.Some speakers are designed to mate with the SET amplifier's higher output impedance and thus sound terrific. SET s have very straight forward simple circuits and many of their builders feel NFB will hurt the purity of these simple circuits.Most push pull pentode type amps aren't linear and will gain sonically with "careful" NFB use. It just depends on what you're trying to achieve and proper amp/speaker characteristics matching. In short a KT88 might need a bit of NFB, A 300b or 2A3 can get by without it.
Charles |
Rebbi,
It's nearly impossible to judge and rate amplifiers without knowing the speaker in question, their linkage is that vital. A fabulous amplifier can sound bad with the wrong speaker choice. The same is true of a wonderful speaker with the "wrong" amplifier. When people use the analogy of a good marriage to stress this point, they aren't kidding. Honestly, NFB can be either desirable or detrimental depending on the circumstances. In my "individual" case, I get along without it very well.
Charles, |
On 6 Moons there's a new review of the Coincident Dynamo by Tim Smith. This is a fairly long review but comprehensive with several amplifier comparisons and the use of several speakers. He has very good taste in his music selections and he has good writing skills as well. The perfectionist Israel Blume was clearly pleased with the reviewer's verdict. High praise.
Charles, |
Mikirob,
I look forward to reading about your experiences. I can relate in particularly to Tim's comments on the reproduction of jazz guitar. When I got my Frankenstein 5 years ago I was actually astonished listening to that instrument. I had never heard the beautiful and "complete" expression of chord harmonics and overtones in my system before. It was the closest I have heard to a live jazz guitarist sound by far! Full, juicy, complex and rich, just as they are in an intimate jazz club. I was instantly hooked, by comparison my previous amplifiers were merely good. Their presentation was drier, flatten and couldn't capture the innate harmonic interactions, sustain or note decay. The 1300.00 Dynamo being able to get this elusive quality so well (per reviewer) is impressive.
Charles. |
Hi Mikirob,
It has to be especially satisfying to get such exceptional sound for a very reasonable cost. This amplifier has the foundation (simple circuit, strong power supply and high quality transformers) so better tubes will be very apparent when used. This amplifier has the potential to keep you happy for a long time. You mentioned Brent Jesse and I've not dealt with him. I'll see if he has any Mullard CV 378 rectifiers for my Frankenstein.
Charles, |
Mikirob,
I can relate to your genuine enthusiasm regarding this amplifier and it seems you and I have very similar listening taste and priorities. At this point in my life I've been fortunate to have experienced quite a large variety of amplifiers. Transistors (high or moderate power, class A and class AB) many push pull tube designs, OTL and class D versions. Within each category there's a hierarchy, some clearly better than the others.
No topology has gotten it as right as a well executed high quality SET IMO, nothing. They have introduced me to a level of natural sound and musical realism unmatched by other amplifier alternatives. Obviously this preference is personal and each person has their own choice to make. I get the sense that the SET genre will emotionally reach your music loving soul more thoroughly than other topologies have done for you. |
Bill,
If Brent Jesse doesn't have the Mullard CV 378 I'll look to the ebay vendors. I value your judgment, so I'm motivated to get this rectifier tube into the Frankenstein based on your very high level of satisfaction with them.
Charles, |
Rebbi,
Just about every tube component regardless of its cost will improve with tube experimentation. I find this to be a plus. It's not that stock tubes sound "bad" but that there's room for such pleasing advancement, a bonus IMO.
Charles, |
Bill,
Your French horn litmus test is analogous to mine with the trumpet. I grew up playing this instrument and know its sound well. Some components/systems are better than others in approaching the authentic sound. Some components purported to be "accurate" can't reproduce the inherent warmth and full body of instruments(their interpretation is lean and thread bare, lacking the natural color IMO). Given your love of acoustic classical music, tone and timbre are mandatory for satisfactory enjoyment. I'm in the same boat with acoustic jazz music.
Charles, |
Mikirob,
Thank you for your kind comments. My frequent partaking of live acoustic music keeps things in good perspective and established the priorities for my home listening enjoyment . Audio systems have to sound natural for me and convey presence and realism. If this isn't achieved then all other sonic or hifi parameter attributes are irrelevant. Having the opportunity to attend numerous CES shows and various special demonstrations it is instructive to hear some touted and expensive equipment that isn't natural but instead canned, sterile and unconvincing. I have no doubt that the Dynamo matched with an appropriate speaker will provide more realism and emotional involvement than a number of more expensive and praised components. Those pure and simple tube circuits are capable of making beautiful music.
Charles, |
Brent Jesse doesn't have the Mullard CV 378, so it's off to ebay for a search. |
Well, I placed an order on ebay for the Mullards(1960s vintage) and should have them in 7-10 days. I just chose the vender with the highest feedback rating and a long track record. Bill, see what you've done with your enthusiasm for this rectifier.
Thanks,
Charles, |
Mikirob,
I've bought tubes from Andy a few years ago and had no problems with him or his tubes. |
Bill,
I purchased the "skinny" bottle Blackburn plant model.
I did come across a "fat"bottle version but they were as you noted much more expensive (double the cost). The skinny tube has impressed you and Israel so I went this route as well. These are new (old stock) according to the reputable Canadian seller and should last for many years.
Charles, |
Bill,
For additional perspective read Hmiguel's system page(Tripoint Audio owner and builder) for comments regarding his new( 2 days ago) CLS. Keep in mind he is using his ultra level Tripoint products and has the esteemed Robert Koda preamp in his fabulous system. We aren't alone in our opinions.
Charles, |
Mapman,
Your Triangle Titus has a 4 ohm load. My understanding is that the crossover is very simple (one capacitor on the tweeter) so it's likely an easy load and relatively favorable for a SET type amplifier. This speaker is said to be transparent and clear so it should allow the Dynamo's innate character to flourish with little editorialization. It seems as though it could potentially be a very good match. The Dynamo has 4 and 8 ohm speaker taps to experiment with.
Charles, |
I don't doubt the quality of this Tron amplifier but 1/3 the cost of the Discovery amp still could be relatively high price. Isn't the Discovery 300b amp pretty expensive compared to the amplifiers discussed on this thread? I've heard the Tron 211 tube SET amplifier at RMAF and CES and it's was very good driving the Cessaro horn speakers. I haven't heard their 300b SETs. The beauty of the Coincident Dynamo (and Frankenstein) is the very high performance/cost ratio. This isn't an easy accomplishment.
Charles, |
The Tron Atlantic lists for 6750 british pounds, this=10850.00 USD. I imagine this is a fine 300b SET, it uses C core transformers (Israel insists on these in the Frankenstein and CSL). I'd like to hear this amplifier one day.
Charles, |
Hello Bill,
Good post and interesting points regarding value. From time to time I've wondered in admiration how Israel is able to offer such excellent sounding components for such reasonable cost. I have owned a Symphonic Line amplifier and a custom 100 watt push pull 6550/KT 88 amplifier. Both were very good, the Frankenstein is a better sounding and much more rewarding amplifier without question. Having lived with all three of these amps, the Frankenstein is in a different league in terms of natural character, emotional involvement and realism. Bill I completely relate to your personal amplifier journey and outcome based on your Frankenstein experience.
Charles, |
