Charles,
Thanks for the good wishes and for being such a gentleman.
Thanks for the good wishes and for being such a gentleman.
What's the greatest bargain in SET these days?
Hi, Gang,
I response to my recent review of the Reference 3A De Capo BE speaker, someone wrote that if you really want to hear them sing, you should try them with a SET amp, or words to that effect.
That got me thinking. The De Capo's are 92 db efficient, which (correct me if I'm wrong) seems kind of borderline for low-power SET amps.
In any event, right now I'm running mine with a pair of Manley Mahi mono-blocks. They are switchable from triode (20 watts) to "ultra linear" (40 watts). I run them in triode all the time, and in my room, the volume knob almost never goes past 9 o'clock; more would just be too loud.
All that said, what do you guys think of running the De Capo's with a SET amp? And if I did, what's the best bargain in SET's these days?
Thanks!
I response to my recent review of the Reference 3A De Capo BE speaker, someone wrote that if you really want to hear them sing, you should try them with a SET amp, or words to that effect.
That got me thinking. The De Capo's are 92 db efficient, which (correct me if I'm wrong) seems kind of borderline for low-power SET amps.
In any event, right now I'm running mine with a pair of Manley Mahi mono-blocks. They are switchable from triode (20 watts) to "ultra linear" (40 watts). I run them in triode all the time, and in my room, the volume knob almost never goes past 9 o'clock; more would just be too loud.
All that said, what do you guys think of running the De Capo's with a SET amp? And if I did, what's the best bargain in SET's these days?
Thanks!
Showing 50 responses by rebbi
More blog posts here, for those interested... |
Brownsfan, How amazingly generous of you to take all this time and trouble! I really appreciate it. And thanks for the notes about the Concident amps. I wasn't aware that Concident even marketed amps, I'd only heard of their speakers. I have been in touch with both Tash Goka of Ref 3A and Steve Deckert of Decware. Tash says that the Antique Sound Labs ASL AQ 1005 DT (8 wpc) was designed with the De Capo in mind and will drive it quite nicely. It's a 300b based SET. It retails for $3000. Steve Deckert recommended his 6 WPC, EL34-based SET, the Decware SE34I.4, which he said would sound twice as good (!) as the Manley (for a variety of reasons which he enumerated) and fall to the Manley only in terms of overall power. In other words, if I wanted to "crank it" then the Decware wouldn't play as loud as the Mahi's. But, he added, "in the end it will sound so good you won't care." The stock SE34I.4 goes for only $1300 with one input and one volume knob. Other inputs can be ordered at extra cost in order to negate the need for a preamp altogether. Brownsfan (and everyone), what'cha think? ;-) |
Ait: I am a fan of DIY, too, but not without guidance. I built and am running a Bottlehead Seduction phono stage and while I don't have a lot to compare it to, it sounds great. I have thought of building one of the Bottlehead amps but they are truly "flea watt" and I don't know if they have enough juice to drive my De Capo's. But if you know of other SET kits I'd be glad to know about them. As things now stand I'm leaning toward one of the Decware amps. They seem to have an avid following and the prices are reasonable. I basically can't spend any more money than what I'd get for my current Manley gear. |
I have one, additional question for you SET amplifier experts. What exactly is the deal with so many of these amplifier manufacturers touting the fact that they use "no negative feedback?" How is that supposed to affect the sound of the amplifier? I'm curious about this because I have been recently, for the first time, actually, playing with the global feedback toggle switches on my Manley Mahi Power Amps. Each one features a three-way toggle switch, with which you can (even while the amp is playing) change the level of feedback: minimum, standard and maximum. What I have found in playing with these switches confirms something that one of the online reviews of these amplifiers suggested: they have a tendency to shift the perspective on the performance. With "minimum" feedback, the performance is more "upfront" or "in-your-face." Oddly, imaging seems somewhat compromised on my De Capo's in this mode. Also, without messing with the volume control on my preamp, minimum feedback mode seems to make things a bit louder. With "standard" feedback, it's like you've been moved to the middle of the performance Hall. Oddly, imaging seems to improve quite a bit, or at least, you have the perspective of being far enough away from the stage to hear where the different performers are located, as opposed to being close up or you might just be caught up in the wash of sound. It's actually the setting I have found, for most music, I like the best. On the "maximum" feedback setting, everything seems a little flat, foreshortened and "squashed" for lack of a better term. Now, of course, these are push-pull amplifiers, so I'm not sure how much of what I am hearing would be transferable to a single ended amp. But given that I actually like the way these amps sound a little better with moderate feedback, and try to understand how a single ended amplifier with no global feedback might sound. Does that make any sense? :-) |
I am rereading this thread again, and want to thank all of you for the extraordinarily useful information contained herein! Still leaning toward one of the Decware amps. Again, it'll depend on how much I get for my Manley gear... the Mahi's are currently for sale on Audiogon by the way. But y'know... I was taking another look at the AudioNote kits. Their basic 300b kit runs $2200, while the tricked out version of the same amp with the fancy-pants transformers and premium parts runs $3450. Anybody heard these? |
Okay, I want to thank everybody on this thread for all the valuable information. I think I've got it narrowed down to either the Coincident Dynamo or the Decware SE34I.4, which are similarly priced. Everyone's enthusiasm for the Dynamo here is very impressive, but I think there are 3 hesitations I'd have on the Dynamo. First, I wonder if that volume knob nestled between the two tubes up front is a finger-toasting hazard. Second, I am a little bummed that it has only one input... that just means that I'd have to unhook my DAC and hook up my phono preamp whenever I wanted to listen to my analogue front end. Not a deal breaker but kind of a shame. Finally, I'm a little put off by the consensus that the amp doesn't sound its best with the stock tubes, but requires tube rolling (and additional investment) to sound its best. On the other hand, I take it that the amp's built to a certain price point and that this dictated some skimping on tube quality. Your thoughts? And thanks for all your help I really do appreciate it. By the way, I called Coincident today and believe I must've have spoken to Israel Blume himself. He was very cordial. |
Thank you for this, Tim. I also appreciated your analysis of the pros and cons of the Coincident vs. the Declare amps vis a vis aesthetics and flexibility. I think I could live with having to plug and unplug my DAC and phono preamp to switch from LP's to digital if I go wit the Coincident amp. Most of my listening these days is digital, anyway. I'm still dithering on this but my first step will be to see what I can get for my Manley gear. I unfortunately can't afford to lay out any cash without selling the Manley stuff first, so I won't have a chance to a/b the two. But I feel pretty confident at this point that either the Decware or the Coincident will be a step up from my Manley gear. I'll keep you guys posted! :-) |
My understanding from Tash Goka of Reference 3A is that the Antique Sound Labs SET (300b based) 8 watt integrated that they sell was made with the De Capo in mind. Spoke with Israel Blume and he thought the Dynamo and the De Capo would be stellar together. Steve Deckert @ Decware thought that as long as I didn't anticipate playing orchestral music at concert hall volumes I'd be really happy. There's some good info there. |
I am rereading this thread again, and want to thank all of you for the extraordinarily useful information contained herein! Still leaning toward one of the Decware amps. Again, it'll depend on how much I get for my Manley gear... the Mahi's are currently for sale on Audiogon by the way. But y'know... I was taking another look at the AudioNote kits. Their basic 300b kit runs $2200, while the tricked out version of the same amp with the fancy-pants transformers and premium parts runs $3450. Anybody heard these? |
I don't think I'd go this route, myself, but Audio Space makes this little guy: http://www.gini.com/index.php?id=300bmkii Anybody know anything about Audio Space in general or this amp in particular? Underwood sells this one for under $1800. |
By the way, there are also a couple of integrated SET amps from Wright Audio in Oregon, such as this http://www.wrightaudio.us/lolita.htm and this http://www.wrightaudio.us/royale_series_2.htm but I cannot find any real info about them on the web anywhere. Anyone know about these products? They are good looking amps and very reasonably priced, too. |
Map, I don't know the answers to those questions because now I cannot find that post. I'm not worried that the De Capo's can be driven to satisfying levels with an EL34-based SET amp. My room is medium small and I don't tend to listen at live-concert levels. And Tash Goka of Reference 3A told me that the Antique Sounds Lab 8 watt 300B SET was basically developed with the De Capo in mind. Plus, if you go back and read Tim Smith's Coincident Dynamo review on 6moons, he says that the Dynamo played satisfyingly "big" even on his less efficient Harbeth's. So at this point I'm not worried about "if" SET, but "which" SET! |
Hi, Guys, Wow... I am away from the forums for a few days and come back to find all these great new posts. You are all awesome. And this is beginning to feel like a midpoint somewhere between tech support and psychotherapy. :-D Okay, yes, I am making myself nuts over this, admittedly. But since people still seem interested, here's where I am. My Shrimp preamp and Mahi mono-blocks have now sold. I have a budget of roughly $2300-2400 to work with. That's absolutely maximum, no wiggle room. Of course, I don't HAVE to spend that much, but it's my upper limit. Here are my options at that point: 1) Coincident Dynamo 34SE. Advantages: great reviews, assurance from Israel Blume himself that it'll drive the De Capo's with no trouble and Brownsfan seems to concur. Point-to-point wiring. Pretty cosmetics. Weight 22 lbs., suggesting hefty transformers and power supply (although some of that is probably also due to stainless steel chassis.) Available immediately. Downsides: only one input, necessitating cable swapping to go from turntable to DAC. Sense that rectifier tube is crappy and needs to be upgraded. Price, $1299 shipped. 2) Decware SE 34I.4, aka "Rachael." Advantages: hand made to order, including ability to dictate some aesthetic choices, capacitor and other upgrades and number of inputs. Point-to-point wiring. Burned in and voiced with actual, shipped tubes. Lifetime warranty. Decware known for amazing "holography" and a certain "etherial" quality. 30-day money-back guarantee, although, with 10% restock fee and return shipping, I'd stand to lose around $225 if I returned the amp. Downsides: lack of professional reviews (although great customer feedback online). "Light" (?) at 18 lbs - Steve Deckert swears by his proprietary transformers and says that they're so efficient and well designed that they don't have to weigh a ton to sound great. Current wait time running 3-4 weeks. 3) Antique Sound Labs AQ 1005 DT, which I can get at a nice discount within my budget as a previous Reference 3A/Divergent Technology customer. 300b based with volume remote control and 4 or 5 inputs. Point-to-point wiring. Designed for the De Capo. Heavy beast... 55 lbs., I think, suggesting robust transformers, etc. Disadvantages: no reviews I've been able to find. Resale value uncertain. Designed in Hong Kong and made in China... not a deal breaker, but something I was hoping to avoid. And here are a few "left field" possibilities: 4) Bottlehead Paramount 1.1 monoblocks, kit. Price around $1700, preamp still needed, but could add a Bottlehead pre for not that much money. Assembly needed. 300b based. I've built a Bottlehead kit before, but this one is pretty complex. Sound quality and synergy with De Capo's is a guess. 5) Audio Note basic 300b Kit 1, 2014 edition. Great aesthetics for a DIY project, and I'd guess the best resale value of any kit. Available with 3-input option for $2325. Kit seems fairly easy to build. Tricked out "C-core" kit with fancier transformers and caps is, unfortunately, over budget at $3525. No track record with De Capo. 6) Art Audio PX-25 amp with volume control and 1 input currently for sale on Audiogon. Seller wants $2800 (original price something like $6000) but might come down given no sale yet. ;-) Supposed to be reference level, according to reviews. Okay... what'cha think? Determined to make a choice this week and get on with my life. ;-) |
Charles, I think I'm going to have to let the Art Audio piece go. The seller told me that one of the PX 25 tubes is humming, and a little research seems to suggest that "cheap" PX 25 tubes (new, not NOS) are going for $500+ for a matched pair. That's a substantial added expense for me. Given that you have a fondness for DHT tubes like the 300b, would you take a look at the ASL or even the Audio Note kit? Steve |
This thread gets better and better! Thank you Charles, and everybody for the ongoing discussion of the sonic distinctions between the EL-34 and directly heated triodes. It's interesting that the Decware site kind of addresses this in its advertising for the amp I've been considering. His EL-34 amps feature what he calls the "Hazen grid mod." My shallow understanding is that this involves placing a capacitor at a certain value between two particular pins on the EL-34 tube. This is supposed to push the sonic performance of that tube to a much higher level. The ad copy says: "Taking advantage of the unique qualities of the EL34 this amp comes standard with the Hazen Grid Mod. As a result, the transparency and musicality it has sets a new benchmark for EL34 that exceeds directly heated triode amplifiers at twice the price." I can't comment on the truthfulness of this claim, but it's interesting that he is addressing the perceived performance gap between the EL-34 and directly heated triodes. |
Mikirob, So, as obviously thrilled as you are with the Dynamo, would you still contend that a directly heated triode like the 300 B would still make a better sounding amplifier? I'm not being snarky or contentious here I really am curious. Because, if 300B really is the way to go, I would even consider building the Bottlehead Paramount mono blocks along with maybe their 300 B based preamp, the Bee Pre. |
Well, for a variety of reasons the Antique Sound Labs AQ 1005 DT is off the table, as I have reason to believe it may be only a so-so amp, plus it's not clear to me who'd service the thing if it needed warranty service. I think that if I go with a prebuilt, commercial product, it'll be the Dynamo. (I haven't totally turned away from the Decware but I'm moving in that direction.) Otherwise, I'll either build the Audio Note 300b kit or the Bottlehead Paramount kit with a Bee Pre preamp, which is also 300b based. That's all for now... |
Charles1dad, Good question. The Bottlehead's trannies are made in the USA by Magnequest, apparently. Magnequest also sells upgraded transformers (several levels of them running $400 to $650) for the Paramount kit. Paul Joppa, the designer, says that they do make a subtle difference but not as much of a difference as tube rolling or, say, upgrading caps. I should add that the Paramount (like Bottlehead's other kits) used solid state rectification. Anyway, Bottlehead is a class act, in my experience, and although some people love to tinker and upgrade the original parts, I feel confident there's no junk in that kit. Paul Joppa is an electrical engineer and respected designer, so I trust that kit. Now, at least from the photos on the AN web site, that kit seems to have some serious "iron" in it. There are four big transformers in that integrated. Now, it seems that you have an option at the time of ordering our kit to deduct $75 from the price and then order upgraded components from an outfit called Parts Collective in the UK. It's not clear to me from the web site what parts they leave out when you take that route, and I've written to ANKits to try and find out. Got one other question for you, Charles: So, that Art Audio PX-25 is still apparently unsold. Let's assume the PX 25 tubes need to be replaced to straighten out that bum tube that the seller says is humming somewhat. Would you still try to cut a deal for that amp? And just how weird-a** is that PX-25 tube, anyway? Lots of online dealers don't even seem to stock it. |
Al, I appreciate your learned input. I am really not terribly worried about running out of gas with an SET amp. I could be proven wrong, of course. But my listening room is closed in and not terribly large around 11' x 16' with an 8 foot ceiling. I listen about 8 feet away from the front of the speakers not exactly nearfield, but not very far away, either. I'm also not terribly into listening very loud. That's subjective, of course, but I tend to like to "listen into" the music rather than being battered by it. :-) Finally, the owners manual for the De Capos says that excellent results can be achieved with "purist amps" of only a few watts. The owners manual also points out that while 92 dB is not considered incredibly efficient in the world of loudspeakers, because the speaker has no real crossover and the main driver is run directly connected to the amplifier, there isn't a complicated circuit inside sucking up amplifier power. To do some more due diligence on this, I'm going to pick up the phone today and call GalenCarol Audio in San Antonio. They carry both Reference 3 A and Art Audio products. Let me see what they say about pairing the De Capo with this kind of amplifier. I will report back. |
Okay, Folks, Here's where this starts to get really interesting. :-) I spoke to Brian Smith over at Audio Note Kits. Very nice, very energetic guy. He was adamant that the Audio Note Kit 1 in its standard configuration would have no trouble at all driving the De Capo's in a medium-sized room. "You will be able to play those speakers louder than you would want to listen with no trouble," he opined, or words to that effect. He said that the Audio Note Kit 1 is a "ballsy" amplifier in part because of the design (including the transformers) and also in part because of the full preamplifier stage built-in. As for out of the gate upgrades, he suggested upgrading the capacitors. He kindly offered to give me that upgrade at dealer cost and throw in free shipping, which would bring me in under my $2500 budget. So, there is one option. By the way, it would be possible to upgrade that kit, bit by bit, as I wish. He suggested leaving a little extra wire in a particular place during the build in order to accommodate the fancier transformers down the road. Allow me to just add here that the prospect of building a kit does sound rather fun I haven't done that since I built my Seduction phono preamp. I also spoke with Galen Carol, who knows both Reference 3A and Art Audio as an authorized dealer. He didn't really have much experience with the PX-25 amplifier he told me that he had maybe sold one of them over the years. Since the departure of Joe Fratus, the former US distributor, he isn't really recommending Art Audio gear much to his customers. Seems that Joe's departure from Art Audio wasn't entirely amicable and he seems to feel that the service and support situation in the US at this point is somewhat nebulous. I, myself, sent an email to the current Art Audio distributor and haven't yet received a reply after several days. In some ways, the most interesting conversation was with David Dicks, who is the proprietor of Commonsense Audio, which sells the Audio Nirvana line of speakers and amplifiers. He is a very fun, opinionated (but not in an obnoxious way at all) and interesting guy to talk to. He is first and foremost a speaker builder and designer. He has created an enormous line of what he claims to be the best, full range drivers around. And if you look at the website, he has a staggering array of components for sale. For quite a long time, they made finished speakers, but as the business grew he didn't want to have to hire more people so he has gotten out of the cabinet business but has a number of cabinet building partners who will make finished cabinets for his designs. Anyway, if you go to the customer feedback page, it is full of ecstatic comments from happy customers. He claims that even though all his products have a money back guarantee, he has only had half a dozen returns of his speaker products in all the years he's been selling them. And the prices are extremely reasonable. As for the 300 B SET amplifier This is a new product for them, to go along with their push-pull tube amp and a class D amp that they also sell. It is their best amplifier. He did not design the amp. It was designed by a friend of his, an engineer who worked for Boeing in the past and also for an amplifier company. Interestingly, David told me that he never liked 300 B amps in the past because most of the ones he heard only had "the magical midrange" because they sounded rolled off at the extremes. His engineer friend thought he could design a first-rate 300 B-based amp and set about doing so over the course of three years. David loved the results and took steps to bring it to production. The amplifier is built at an offshore-owned factory in China. The transformers are enormous and heavy the amp weighs the better part of 60 pounds. (He agreed that transformer quality was the make or break element in a great 300 B amp.) Internals are kept simple by using a simple attenuator for volume control rather than a full-blown preamp stage. If you take a look at the photo of the innards of the amp, it looks extremely clean and well done. I questioned the extraordinarily reasonable price of this amplifier, given his contention that it's the best 300 B amplifier he could build. He explained that his philosophy is to sell his products at a fair and reasonable profit, not to make as much money as he possibly can, even though he could easily charge at least twice the current asking price for that amplifier. He repeatedly emphasized that his speakers would smoke my De Capo's. And, truth be told, for what I got for my Manley gear I could buy his 300 B amp and a pair of his speakers. :-) Finally: I have it on good authority that Bottlehead has a sale coming up in the next couple of days which would bring the cost of the Paramount power amp and Be Pre-preamp down substantially. So, lots of choices! As always, interested in your thoughts. By the way, I think I have eliminated Decware from the pack. It turns out that the 30 day money back guarantee does not apply to orders that have been customized, such as adding extra inputs or other upgrades. At this point, I think I have sufficient options to put that one to bed. |