Maybe it’s the audio dealer experience? Where else can newbies go to get started in this hobby. Isn't that where most of you got hooked? Let me describe my latest visit to an audio store nearby. I won’t use the store name here, as that’s
not the point. Where I live there is really only one audio store
left. That’s strange because I live in a very wealthy community. The Friday
after Independence day, me and a friend went to this local audio store. First time back there in years. We are both looking
to upgrade. They have 3 audio rooms and two home theater rooms. The hi-end
audio room (the store’s term) was an impressive room with extensive acoustic
treatments. Mostly McIntosh gear. Sitting in the listening chair, you are looking at 600 watt
Mac monoblocks running some nice tower speakers. A massive JL Audio Gotham
subwoofer unit sat front and center facing the only listening chair. The
McIntosh turntable was spun first. Sloooowww. It took my friend less than five
seconds to point out the TT was running slow. The salesman had started to play
Pink Floyd-Wish You Were Here, and it was noticeably slow. So the salesman flipped
the switch to 45 rpm. Yes, that happened. He figured out it was too fast all on
his own. Fiddle and poke at the TT for a bit and then the salesman said- "I’ll let them know it’s broke". Then he
said he would just stream some music from a server. Bass! All you could hear was bass, and NOT good bass. He turned the subs down a
little when asked, but all you could hear was tubby, muddy bass. The big tower speakers were overpowered by the sub. I really wanted to hear what the main speakers alone sounded like, but could not get the salesman to shut off the subs. On
to the mid-fi room (the store’s term). The salesman tried to play us two different turntables. Neither turntable worked. One
would not power up, and one was not hooked up to a system at all. Let me point out we didn’t
care what source they used. I did say we both run analog and digital sources.
Nothing interesting in the mid-fi room the first time through. Next room (no
name) was a wall of bookshelf and small towers run by a wide selection
of integrated amps. Not bad sound from some. Again, we were told this is
“streaming quality audio”. This was the third time he mentioned we were listening to streaming quality audio. I took a guess at what that meant and asked if we
could hear higher quality audio. So he took us back to the mid-fi room. He popped in a
CD.I could not tell what CD equipment
was being used. I think a Rotel integrated was selected. Everything in the cabinet was black faced behind dark glass. Not sure what CD it was either, but since he only had one, I let it
go.
Big change! The Paradigm towers were now making good sounds. A big difference from his
“streaming quality” demo. Next we switched to a pair of GE Triton 1s. I seriously might
get a pair! They make nice sounds. By far the best thing we heard. There was more that happened that contributed to a poor experience, but I will move on.
Here is my point- What would anyone
new to the hobby think of that experience? It took two seasoned audio guys pushing the salesman for over an hour before he played anything worth listening to. Would you buy anything from this place. Would you send a newbie in there? Let me know if I'm off base in thinking these audio stores are killing themselves off by the way they do business. Or is it just my misfortune that I have not been in a good dealer showroom in years?
I personally believe that the hobby is not dying and if we involve our kids and introduce them to a variety of good sounding music it will stay alive..
I am not sure we are on the same page, but I am not speaking about a dying hobby here. I am saying that music in general has become repetitive with lack of originality. I just don’t understand why promote artist that sound the same, dance the same, etc., everyone mimics each other. Years ago groups had their own style and were different from one another, now I turn on the radio and it all sounds the same and not saying all but the majority. For example John Leyend, this guy has his own style and I commend that among others, but few. In my opinion I think that rap is a disgrace to the music industry and its time to let it go.
Anyway as someone mentioned we are straying away from the topic and I apologize for that.
Some of the posts are straying kinda far from the topic, which isn't so much about changing tastes in music. It's about loss of interest in high fidelity recording and playback (e.g., the "audio hobby").
When I was younger I was not able to afford any album or disk. I had to rationalize a purchase so that limited the amount of music I heard. Today, those albums and disks that I did not buy I can hear in entirely and I am happy to learn some of those that I skipped (due to costs) are actually classics. Better late than never. Today, any young person can hear almost anything ever recorded in the last 75 years for relatively low cost.
I hardly spend any time watching TV now, it is just work with music on (home office) and listen to music once my kid is in bed. The more music I listened to the greater my desire to hear it on good equipment. The music came first for me then the system. I think a lot of young folks will follow a similar path as me. I already see this with the young guns that work in my current work project.
If a younger, aspiring and potential, audiophile turned away from their iPhone or take-anywhere music setup and got into vinyl, how much money would they have to spend? The truth is that the ultra uber expensive boxes of wires (aka expensive audio equipment) is out of their reach. What is killing audio is the high cost of equipment. Yeah, the kids can get mid-fi and probably spend $3k, but to get to hi-fi they have to spend much more. Practically speaking, smarter kids are buying things they need. Cars, an education and a home. They are not spending $50k on an audio system. Heck many people here have over $50k in audio equipment. At some point it becomes a rich man/women’s hobby.
In short, arrogance and overconfidence are what kills any "hobby" but there are always arrogant people in every hobby. When people point that a hobby is dying, it is usually just changing in a way they can't control. When I was young and hot rods were all the rage, the person who could tune a car (with multiple carbs) with the proper fuel to air ratios given certain readings for humidity/barometric pressure ruled the drag strip. Its done today with computer software downloaded to the car, variable valve timing, etc, etc.
Just because people today don't consume their "hobbies" in the same way doesn't mean a particular hobby is dying, it just means its changing.
Really? Nothing has changed, only the definition of "good oldies". When I was a kid, commercials were using Perry Como and Joe DiMaggio to hawk their goods. Edward R. Murrow smoked on air as did Carson and everyone else. Harry James was held out as the ultimate trumpet player even though Miles and Lee Morgan were considerably more important not to mention Clark Terry was technically superior to them all from a proficiency standpoint.
Commercials and film always dig deeper to find tracks that evoke memories from their target market. The "Summer of '42" wasn't made in '42. The pharmas are the worst, I hit mute on the TV when a drug commercial comes on since I know they will butcher an Earth, Wind and Fire's "Let's Groove" or Fleetwood Mac's "Go Your Own Way" with new lyrics. 40 year old tracks. You still hear Glen Miller music on some commercials. Hip hop sampled Aerosmith...music evolves. One generation of music may be more relevant to you but it doesn't make it more relevant in general terms. Another reason certain tracks get repeated over and over in TV and Film is due to who owns the copyright. That's another discussion for another day (Motown especially).
People lament that bricks and mortar are all but gone but selection was limited to maybe 4 or 5 major brands across the 2 or 3 stores the average town might have that you MIGHT be able to call audiophile. The DIY/mail order was available in the backs of magazines which is where the real innovation was ocurring. We might extrapolate that the DIY/mail order side of things is actually how we have evolved...consumer direct has grown and retail has contracted. @elizabeth mentioned earlier in the thread that she got hooked on music through the classical music she received in the mail. Now its all streamed and widely available instantly but there are still people getting hooked on good music.
Every Art form has its day I guess. Just look how many post 2000 films make it into the Sight and Sound all time top 50. Where would the film industry be today without superheroes...?
Basically, the mainstream music industry couldn't give a damn for sound quality. Its all about an attention grabbing sound with impact and punch. Outside Christmas parties, they dont even to pause to laugh at audiophiles. Far too busy churning out product for the market. Numbers don't lie, and numbers say we're irrelevant. As irrelevant as food critics are to McDonalds & co.
Even the movie industry treats its market better with remastered blu-rays, but then their market is bigger and they sell better.
Let's face it, we're the only ones who seem to care about fidelity.
Each generation is absolutely certain that the apocalypse is upon us because the music to which subsequent generations listen is bad. Same song, different generation.
I’m not saying everyone is wrong today any more than our parents were wrong when they called our music junk. A few facts though...there is more great gear being made today than at any time in history. There are more people listening to music than at any time in history. They arent doing it the way the prior generations did but its happening. Many claim crappy earbuds and mp3 are the devil’s work but most of those stereos from Western Auto or Sears listening to an fm station in the typical American town playing back 4th generation tapes or scratched 45’s wasn’t nearly as awesome as many here seem to recall.
Hip hop seems to really get everyone wound up here but Parliament and Curtis Mayfield did as well 5 decades ago. Charlie Parker and bebop wasnt deeply appreciated either, it was underground music and time has aged it very well but our grandparents couldnt dance to it.
Why cant everyone just relax and enjoy what they enjoy and let others enjoy what they enjoy? If people are listening to music, which they are in record numbers, then thats alright with me.
Back in the day TV and stereo consoles were a fixture in everyone's living room. Families listened to music! Things morphed from there as components broke out of the consoles and everyone (Kids) wanted there own system in their bedrooms and rec rooms.
Bluetooth streaming via a phone to a Bluetooth speaker is a normal stereo system these days.
I try try and show some friends my latest gear that I'm excited about they just shake their heads or roll their eyes and move on. My Son at 24 years old can't sit very long either, times have changed.
On the other hand prices and quality of decent audio gear seem to be plentiful albeit mostly online purchases driven by word of mouth by folks like us.
A lot audio stores have had a bit of a snobby attitude (not all) so that hasn't helped. It's not easy to make a living with B&M store these days for anything. One click and it's at your door in 48 hours.
Besides my point of the expense, I am with you 100%. What is going on with the freaking music industry now days, at times you can’t even make out what they are saying. I am very opened to different types of music even music before my time and I am about to turn 58, but I can not stand what is out there today. Who is producing or marketing these people? You mentioned chords, to me it sounds like it’s the same chord over and over..lol... They also seem to have this idea that they have to kill a note to sound good and what it is with the Mariah singing imitations, it’s gotten old.
the no. 1 thing hurting the hobby, is a lack of good quality new music to listen to.let’s face it, all the legendary musical superstars are either dead, or so old they can’t produce anymore. all that’s left is the rolling stones touring singing their old songs from the 1960-80’s time period, and mick jagger is 75 years old, and just had a heart valve replacement. and a ticket to go see them is $500. when the music stops, people tend to stop dancing...many have just stopped listening to their stereos. no time for it.sitting around on a couch listening to one old recording after another, that you’ve already heard 100’s of times before ? there are more productive things to do.what made it fun and attractive years ago, there were new albums being released yearly,by massively talented groups and artists.now we have rap, hip hop, and pop.there’s only so many chord combinations on a guitar neck,I think we’ve heard them all after 75 years.all the music sounds the same, did you notice ??add to it resale value of new gear, is terrible for the most part. the cellphone streaming music has just killed it.vintage gear seems to retain its value the best. from the value standpoint, we’re stuck in the past.dinosaurs are only good for one thing, leaving deep tracks. cuz they’re extinct.
I'll take a 2nd shot and keep it brief. Most younger folks don't seem to attend the type of live music performances that made most of us fall in love with the sounds we were hearing (whether acoustic or small-setting amped).
Too many are not even aware of wonderful musical sounds and are instead focused on digital devices that bring them a tinny facsimile of "manufactured" music. That's all they know.
Yes, there is some renewed interest in vinyl, but it's a relatively small minority.
I think a lot of posters hit the nails on the heads- confluence of factors. With the dominance of streaming and low quality MP3's, I think most consumers are now looking for the best streaming and individual experiences. Premium headphones are starting to disrupt the high end market along with soundbars, whereas before it was only soundbars. It's becoming a 1-2 punch of sorts. The typical A/V consumer probably does one of two things-either shops at BB or Amazon. Your typical BB salesman most likely suggests a "good sounding" soundbar with the bigger screen for a few reasons- easy to install, clean install with few wires, and very price attractive. Most consumers put the bulk of their budget toward the tv, especially the millennials. The new comparison, sadly, is how much better it sounds than the tv speakers and how well it streams. If they buy from Amazon, they may have demoed it in BB or just read reviews and that takes care of that. It leaves the high end stores in no-mans land.
In a lot of instances with high end, many consumers know what they want when they walk in- I'll take this, that, and the other. Still, it just blows my mind with stories like this when we talk about the marginal high end shopper. They need a lot of instruction, demonstration, etc. I looked at high end equipment in a BB super high end, and the guy wouldn't hook the B&W 805 D3's to the Mac equipment- I left without purchasing from them. When I found the right store, I ended up spending $5000 more than I had budgeted- the great salesman said that happens all the time without even trying. If I owned a high end store, my first order of business everyday would be to ensure ALL of the equipment works and the salesmen were willing to do what it took. Cheers!
When the Boomers were growing up, everyone 16 or older had some variation of a "Close and Play" in their rooms. Not you can get it all and a heck of lot more on a phone. If we had the access they do, (pot, porn) we might never have ventured outside either! Well the iPhone doesn't sound as good you say? As an 18 year old earning a whopping $3.50 an hour, I could afford Marantz separates, a new TR6, and the Bose 901s. Today America has digressed into a world that requires immediate satisfaction. Saving up for 6 months is a "burden"on the Millies. And so the song goes...
I agree with elizabeth that many on these forums contribute greatly to the problems in this hobby. I would think that many audio enthusiasts are of above average intelligence and therein, perhaps, lies the problem. Why would any person indulge in this hobby if they didnt allow for the possibility that things can be greater than the sum of their parts? But I think the worst aspect of these forums are members who speak authoritatively about things they have never heard. There is also a great deal of regurgitation of what they have heard from other "experts".
Don’t get me wrong but not everyone would consider buying old or used. Duct taping is I bit much... Technology changes often and usually we look for those advancements and that come at a cost. Have you looked at current prices? I understand we don’t have to buy an amp for 30k but even at 4k for an amp plus everything else to have a decent setup comes at a price. My point is the majority of our population can not maintain this hobby including keeping up with new technology which changes regularly.
@mindlessminion, yes eShopping is a force to contend with. The face of UK retail has been transformed in the past 2 decades by it. Electrical outlets have been decimated by its onslaught.
And its not done yet.
Its also fair to say that audiophiles are not exactly helping either. Nor the vinyl pressing plants. Nor the loudness wars. Nor the snake oil parasites.
On the other headphone sales are absolutely booming. Easy to see why when you can trade up, swap, and chop and change with ease. And you can get high quality fashion statement portable sound too. HD6XX anyone?
I have not read this entire thread and maybe this has already been addressed, if it has I echo it.
The economy plays an significant part to all this. I recall approximately 4 years ago I visited a dealer and a realistic conversation lead to my point. He mentioned that out of 300 people that visited his stored maybe one bought something. This is an expensive hobby and makes it hard for most to even consider when there is a family to maintain. Keep in mind that salaries have been stagnet for four decades, but everything else goes up, this is reality. I check out electronics at least every two years and prices are out of control. This is hypothetical but people are not satisfied with just profiting 30-40% like the old days, they go to the extreme in profits of 100-200% These percentages may not be correct but I believe they are within range. Think about it, if you are selling this stuff and putting your best effort and you do not see the return you expect, I can see how it would cause apathy. The reality of this is the more prices go up the less people buy and everyone looses in the end, because we keep these companies alive. Things need to change all around.............
In the Bay- Sacramento area there are several good dealers. One such dealer has Audio Note, Quicksilver, Jolida and many other brands, plus consignment and vintage/used gear. I will go there and often there is one to a half-dozen regulars listening to vinyl while the owner/employee is typically showing someone a system in their price range.
What amazes me is the sound they can get out of a system, I heard a Jolida DAC/CD, with a Quicksilver integrated and a used pair of of PMC on consignment and was incredibly impressed by the sound given the price range. Not sure if its their knowledge of systems components, room acoustics, but they always seem to get the best sound out of each component.
I think there is definitely benefit in component matching and as each component individually have a sonic signature, together that sonic character can change. Hearing a complete system does have benefits and can save in the long run time and money in component churn.
The harm I think is when people use the brick and mortar store to research and 'kick the tires', but then use the internet to find the best deal. Just like all brick and mortar stores, audio has also been hurt by e-shopping.
I spent ten years in the audio industry and loved it- the gear, the music, the retail experience, the customers and the industry people and events. I ran a nine store chain in the NYC area (back in the early / mid 1990's. With that said similar things happened often when salespeople where giving demos and it was embarrassing and made making the sale all that much more difficult. It often boiled down to noone really paying attention to the demo rooms, noticing if gear was plugged in, wired correctly, replaced when a piece was sold off the shelf.
Nowadays it sure seems that prices are stratospheric for much of the high end gear and that combined with the lack of physical stores for consumers to visit make it less and less attainable. Not to mention many more competing areas for consumers to spend their money. Factor in that many / most people in their 30's/ 40's grew up with little or no exposure to high end or even good audio systems and therefore don't have an interest or passion for the gear. For them streaming on a phone or bluetooth speaker is all they've known.
Another few years and the industry (unless more affordable brands and products re-emerge) will be potentially sitting where Harley Davidson is- with a customer base that aged out of the market for their product. Hopefully not though!
Echo audio is great. Pearl audio is also very good in Portland. The art of audio when they were open was excellent. In Seattle, Definitive Audio always had the best sounding gear. The problem with B&m stores now is that they are used by people to see what gear sounds like and then the person goes home and deals on agon or us audio mart to buy at a discount what they just heard. I stopped going to stores many years ago and started going to audio shows. Over a weekend you can see and hear hundreds of pieces of equipment and then deal directly with the manufacturer or rep to bring in a piece(s) into your home for a 30 day trial to bear it in your system and in your room.
Younger people may have paid 10-20x more for their homes than you did (if they even could buy a home, actually) and their educations.. likewise. They can't afford to cash out on extravagances.. but the most likely explanation is their apartment neighbor can put up with 1k headphones far better than fantastic Magico 10k floor standing speakers (the cheap ones).. and those speakers will not fit into their luggage, let alone a cool vintage 100lb Krell class A amplifier, The fins rip right through that second-hand nylon duffer they want to stow in the overhead on their first trip to Croatia.
So my answer.. the Federal reserve banking system and QE. Does that make sense?
"...a lot of the enthusiastic audiophiles are getting a little older as I am..."
Good news, even those listening to iPhones are getting older at the same speed. At least in that race we are all even. Except maybe those with progeria and that is not fair.
I think that a lot of the enthusiastic audiophiles are getting a little older as I am and are pretty happy with the systems they have. Maybe try a few of the tweaks as they come along, but mostly enjoy the music.
Things have changed Geoff! “I used to care, but things have changed.... Don’t get up gentlemen, I’m only ... passing through...” dang it! Dylan has a way with words!
I also want to add that the demise of audiophilia is accelerated with the widespread use of MP3, earpods and mobile phones. You cannot appreciate better sound if you have never heard it.
Plus, the crappy music that is poular today does not help much either.... I sometimes accidentally eavesdrop to some crap my daughter listens to and I would rather kill myself.
I had a trip planned to southern California and so I thought I would visit a speaker manufacturer and a stereo dealer which had a lot or unlimited amount of speakers I wanted to hear.
Spent around 3 hours at the speaker manufacturer listening to the music I had brought to compare their 2 best speakers. They sell internet direct and why I took the time to stop by..
At the dealer, I did get to hear several speakers I had never heard before which were wonderful, all under $5,000. Check that off my list. I asked to use the music i had however it seemed like they only wanted to play vinyl. After listening to each speaker in various rooms and one in the lobby, I was asked the same question after one song. How does it sound? The vinyl was great and the songs were great and showed off the speakers however there was a problem. How can you pick a speaker under $5,000 (much less any speaker) listening to only one song and not using my tracks to test each speaker? It was like I had to pass a test. They were aware I had traveled a great distance to go to their store.
Who do you think has a better chance to sell me a pair of speakers?
Broken lines, broken strings Broken threads, broken springs Broken idols, broken heads 😩 People sleeping in broken beds Ain’t no use jiving, ain’t no use joking 😬 Everything is broken
Broken bottles, broken plates Broken switches, broken gates Broken dishes, broken parts Streets are filled with broken hearts 💕 Broken words never meant to be spoken Everything is broken
Seem like every time you stop and turn around Something else just hit the ground
Consumers are not being replaced as they move on.....for me I am doing so many other things since I retired that I do not spend near as much time with the system. And I won't spend the same amount on upgrades or changes like I did while working. Also, for every audiophile who passes on or loses interest who replaces him/her?
Besides the poor sales experience in audio stores, here's another possible reason young people aren't into quality equipment. When I got into hifi, it was the mid-80s. The music scene was incredible---alternative rock, alternative dance, house etc... The music was good---sounded good too. But think about the music they play in Top 40 radio now. Post Malone, Ariana Grande and so on. Who's going to buy expensive equipment to listen to Post Malone? So listen to crap music on crap equipment, IMO.
What is killing/discouraging an audio newbie is the condescending attitude of the dealers who look down on you unless you are prepared to spend $10,000 on a CD player and forums like this in which some superhumans claim they can hear the difference in sound when they reverse a power cable :)
Read about the Munich show and it makes one feel better about serious audio...also I do think whining does "ruin" things a bit, as does "snake oil" tweak hyperbole.
My father said, often, there are more horses as..’s than horses. We have all met one, somewhere. At age 83, I’ve been involved in the “hi-fi” hobby since the early 50’s. Trust me, things are MUCH better. True, there are fewer dealers who seem to give a sh.., but the amount of really good products is almost overwhelming!. Buying anything has always been ‘buyer beware’ activity. So it behooves a buyer to try to educate yourself about the market. So how? I think trade magazines are a great help. Subscribe to Audiophile Magazine or some other. These Audiogon forums are VERY helpful. I.e. EDUCATE YOURSELF‼️Lacking many good retail stores, call a dealer who carries a product you may have an interest in and pick his brain. Or call the manufactor, they frequently have someone willing to talk with you. Bottom line, if you are a dumb sh.., and refuse to educate yourself, you are a true SUCKER‼️
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