What's happened to the used high end market recently?? Sales are tough....:0(

let's face it, with time the great sounding old designs become progressively more obsolescent, and to keep paying higher and higher prices for them becomes foolish.  they must have a distinct investor grade quality to keep climbing in value, i.e. they must retain or gain in value, to be worth buying.  when the prices start to drop, that's the signal it's not an investment, rather it's just a trend that has been played out, or it's been surpassed by newer developments in technology and sound.  I'm seeing this same phenom in everything vintage or antique.  what drives the prices up to the sky is big money getting interested in buying it, and when that wanes, the prices can only go down.  all these cheap knock-off Chinese-made tube amps don't help any. hopefully we can get nasty tariffs on them all, and then you'll see vintage tube gear pick up again.

Don't get me started on MQA enabled mobile phones which Bluetooth to Hi Def earphones. There are more than enough millionares/billionaires/moguls/movie/TV stars in this world to make all Hi End manufacturers millionares themselves. Some of us aren't that privileged!

@fstein 

Maybe, except what you stated doesn't account for the 'collapse'.

Given inflated high end prices, the collapse in secondary sales prices may reflect what this stuff is really worth

@terpstation,
I don’t happen to believe the millennial generation is not interested in the sound of actual instruments. I think that millennials have a great deal of choice in which to spend their hard earned money, if...BIG IF, HEA was more affordable to them..and more of them knew of the existence of HEA, then I think we would be seeing a resurgent and growing market. Instead, it would appear that the current generation of HEA manufacturer’s have thrown their lot in with those that believe it is imperative to make a quick buck and to max profits while they can. Not saying all of the HEA manufacturer’s are going down this route, but unfortunately for the hobby, this trend does seem to be expanding!

The boomer generation is shrinking and aging, and with it the HEA market.  So, the question is, why isn't the millennial generation into HEA.  There are many reasons of course, but i believe a big factor is that the nature of popular music has dictated the decline of high end audio. If you look at the top 100 songs, very few feature actual instruments. The vast majority are created on computers. Kids are not listening to jazz or rock anymore as they did in the 70s and 80s.  High end audio is made to reproduce the sound of actual instruments. That's the magic. Hearing a real guitar or piano in your living room. If there are no real instruments on a recording there is no need for high end reproduction. There is no need for high end audio to reproduce a sound or beat created on a computer because there is no actual reference to reproduce. The reference is whatever you are listening to your computer with when you created the beat or sound. ... Just one man's opinion.

@fleschler 

Your housing and square footage numbers, while likely numerically correct, may be disproprotionately skewing the data. Using your home as an example which sounds to be in excess of 4,000 square feet, you have to admit most young people don’t own or rent homes in that size. Many highly educated young people relocate to where the jobs are and the better jobs are generally in LA, San Diego, SF Bay area, Chicago, Dallas, Houston, New York, Atlanta, Charlotte....where I live home prices easily exceed $1,000 per sq foot.  As far as garages, I see fewer 20 and 30 somethings driving suburbans or 4 door extended cab dually pickups but they are out there, theres no denying that fact. One nice thing though is some older homes were built to hold a 1975 Cadillac so there isnt much built today that wont fit.  

I figure the typical home being constructed in the typical town today is probably 2,500-2,750 sq feet. But young people today may not be able to afford the typical new home. The point I was making is that young, budding audiophiles arent likely to allow their audio to intrude into the living space that your generation might have. TVs mount on the wall so thats no issue, one less spot for a velvet Elvis picture!  Thats all I was trying to communicate.

The example above is just one and not the rule. Used stuff is selling for 25% - 30% of retail, not 83%. Even then it sits. I know because I buy and sell stuff all the time. No more however due to the comments I have already made.

Tekton is one of the companies changing high end audio for the good.  They price speakers in real world dollars and offer great value.  They are one of the new breed of innovative audio companies breaking past HEA rules and norms. 

I don't think the market has gone soft but I do think the market has changed which means that the sellers have to change as well.

Lets face it, there is new "latest and greatest" technology and sound gear coming out all the time (if you believe all the hype).   (hmm, kind of reminds you of the car business??)  That automatically and significantly devalues all but a very small percentage of audio equipment.  Why?  because in most cases, I can try the new gear in my home for at most a couple hundred dollars of shipping...and if I buy pre-owned gear, it may take me quite a while to resell it if I don't like it...and if I paid too much, I may incur significant further depreciation.

Here is a real world example.  Most people don't know if they really want to take a chance on an open baffle loudspeaker....so they could buy a new Tekton OB sigma for $1750 or a Spatial Audio Hologram M4 for $2k...and if they don't like them, spend a couple hundred to ship them back after 60 days.....  Here is a current listing on Agon (  https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis8j0bc-tekton-design-ob-sigma-open-baffle-hybrid-full-range  ) for an OB Sigma for $1450 delivered...or $300 below the new OB Sigma price.  Why would someone already skeptical  about open baffle spend 83% of retail????  They wouldn't. 

One might argue that audio is like automobiles....it devalues 25% when you take possession, 15% the second year and 10% the third year....in most cases....maybe not a corvette and maybe not a pass labs amplifier.

My belief is that the market is ultimately sending a message that many of the products listed for sale are priced too high and as a result, they languish for months waiting for a buyer.

Garages have to be larger due to the proliferation of owning popular pick-up trucks and SUVs compared to compact cars.  

Video screens have grown monumentally in the past several decades. Now, a 55, 65 and 75 inch screen is common. Back in 2002, the largest common screens were 40 inch. No room problem complaints by millennials about that except that the new TVs mount on the wall, are relatively lightweight and don’t dominate a room in bulk.

There is a misconception concerning space. Homes are 1,000’ larger than they were in 1973. http://www.aei.org/publication/new-us-homes-today-are-1000-square-feet-larger-than-in-1973-and-livin... This is especially true outside of major urban areas. So, space is expensive (but same price per square foot), but plentiful, for homeowners. This line that space is more expensive and limited is like saying that taxes aren’t high enough. My equipment back in 1980s and 1990s was about the same size as it is today. I used to own Acoustat 2&2s and Martin Logan Monolith IIIs. They are not small speakers. My amps were monoblocks then and now (three changes there too). My homes have gotten larger by 1,000’ each time, three times from the 1981. So, that reasoning is irrational. People live in larger condo space than they used to live in apartment space over the past quarter century as well.

@grannyring phenomenal post!

Thanks to the op for starting this thread, its a great dialogue that will play itself out over time for all of us to review in the future. Succinctly, the following observations may or may not be correlated to the topic. IF HEA is in decline, some of the points are at odds.

1) Some have stated that the prices of new gear is too high while others have stated that the prices of used gear is too low. These blanket statements ignore the Schiit Audio and Linear Tube Audio examples where Schiit gear is selling for sometimes 75% of new prices 5 years later and some LTA gear is selling for close to those numbers. What about Harbeth, their speakers seem to have a strong following in the used market. Schiit and LTA sell direct while Harbeth uses dealers as does McIntosh.

2) Statement pieces from many manufacturers depreciate rapidly in virtually all consumer product categories be it cars, tv’s, smartphones, hea, mountain bikes.

3) The poster who brought up acoustic pianos may be on to something when taken with another poster’s commentary about housing costs. When asked why he was introducing some high performance smallish speakers Dave Wilson answered “because space is expensive”.

4) I would even take that a step further as I work with several 20 and 30 somethings who earn well into six figure incomes. A common thread is they live within their means, drive reasonable autos, live in spaces that meet but don’t exceed their needs, are involved with the activities of their kids, they save money and invest in their future and they don’t don’t typically sit on their bum in front of their tv or stereo for hours. They get out, they are active, they are social, they care about the environment and by extension they monitor energy usage, they are involved in charitable endeavors and they enjoy being in the middle of it all. This is a demographic that would not accept a McMansion in the burbs if you gave it to them.

5) if the old adage of “the only cure for high prices are high prices” holds true on the new end of the market then “the only cure for low prices on the used end of the market would be low prices”. Demand will rise on the used end provided the gear in question meets their above lifestyle choices. That would mean in general, smaller footprints, lighter weights, etc..  My wifes mother was trying to give us a very fine piano and there wasn’t a moment’s hesitation before we said no thanks. Along those same lines, I don’t want any gear I can’t easily move around by myself and moreover, I won’t own a piece of high end gear that can’t be easily shipped to me or on to the next happy owner should my desires change.

In short, buying habits are different today, even among those of us who have been around the hobby a long time. None of the youngsters I work with are willing to overextend or stretch and they learned to be patient over the past 10-15 years while trying to start their careers during the boom-bust-boom economic cycle. HEA isnt dead, its just changing. While the smartphone as the entry level may not meet the standards of many on this this site, it is leaps and bounds better than the boomboxes so many in earlier generations began with.

In summary, look to the manufacturers who are producing products that innovate, carry a reasonable form factor, provide reliability and ease of use and make great music. And dont underestimate form factor, the generation coming into the sweet spot age wise are very mobile, they change jobs alot and move geographically alot. They will load up the Subaru at a moment’s notice and their stuff has to fit!

@grannyring

You bring up a good point about most of the recordings. While it is true that most of the recordings are in many ways lacking, I would think there are enough that the hobby should have enough great content for some extended period. However, I certainly agree that the vast majority of recordings are truly sub par....unable to truly capture the sound of a cymbal, or a snare brush, or a piano etc., This has undoubtedly lead to many listeners in the hobby blaming the gear and losing interest overall.
Plus, the questionable quality control in the record industry still seems to be an ongoing factor. Pathetic in this day and age if you think about it, IMO.

@ghasley 

"I also aspired to do better and I never recall feeling resentment when others were prospering disproportionately better than I was. Just because everyone can’t afford whatever they want doesn’t make it unfair but it does create opportunities for all of us to weigh our choices more carefully."

Not wanting to sound accusatory, but this point does at least sometimes seem to be the content of these type of threads. 

Grannyring appears to be right. The hobby we so love is shrinking and it seems to be gathering speed toward that end.

HEA, in general,  has NOT delivered on its reason for being defined as -  providing the means for enjoying our music fully and with complete contentment. HEA delivers on some well recorded stuff, but in general has not delivered what we want and desire. Couple that with the silly high pricing we see today and you have the reason for HEA collapsing.  The shrinking market has brought on accelerated price increases as manufacturers milk what they can from the shrinking market. This is the classic sign of a product category in the decline phase of the product life cycle.  We are now living in this decline phase. 

The good news is innovation is bringing new home audio products to the market that are right priced and frankly better than what HEA has delivered in the past. 

I am talking about the core market of audiophiles here.  We are not as interested in turning and churning through gear anymore. We have been there and done that enough now and realize all these traditional HEA products don’t and won’t satisfy long term. No way we are spending big money on it now. We are not buying used gear like we used to.  This is why stuff is selling so darn slow if at all. If we decide to try one more piece it better be at a steal, I mean steal of a price. This is driving the prices down. We are a small group we Core Aphiles and we are causing this to happen.  We are the market.  

@ghasley 

All of your points do little to address the fact that the change in the used HEA market has occurred recently. What accounts for this broad change? Why has the free market changed so drastically in such a short period?
The old idea of 'flipping' gear now seems to be a whole lot more difficult. 
OTOH, I would certainly keep that Motorola Bag phone you mention...soon it will be worth some serious $$ to a collector, LOL.

Hey swilber, excellent point; only lossless downloads are worth anything

A lot has to do with my kids generation being content with crappy sounding portables.   I offered my son a pair of Revel m 106 and a nice B&K amp and pre that was in my closet.   Wasn’t even interested. Just held his phone up and said something dumb about how awesome his BluTooth speaker is.     

I sold the Revels to a young guy that appreciates quality sound.  His apartment was barely furnished but he was more concerned about putting together a fine system than where he was going to sit.   At least they went to a good home.   

For goods that depreciate very little, I buy new. For items that depreciate rapidly, I buy pre-owned. Simple right? What I think we hear through all of the white noise is that the residual values people once took for granted may no longer apply. Someone could buy a used amp or a pair of speakers, use it for a year and sell it on and remain relatively whole. Thats how alot of people built their systems over the years, they built up equity along the way and were able to build a higher end system. BUT.....

The laws of the free market can’t be suspended forever. I keep seeing in posts that the high end is dying because my cables depreciated....well, thats the way it goes. Additionally, not ALL cables depreciate so rapidly so the logical conclusion must be that those very special cables that you want to replace for some reason may not be so special after all. Compunding this example is if the very special cables you are trying to sell happen to have been discussed frequently on the millions of audio forums present today, the buying public has naturally formed an opinion regarding performance, value and availability/scarcity. Advances happen in product offerings and those advances factor in as well, further depreciating pre-owned pricing. Anyone who is old enough to have a $2,000 Motorola bag phone from 30 years ago in the bottom of a closet understands this.

Its all relative on value though. Many of my co-workers now consider so many items as their birthright that were once thought of as luxuries. When I was first starting out, a new car wasn’t in the cards lete alone a car for every licensed driver. Cable and telephone were luxuries and a choice for your budget. The idea of a $5 cup of coffee or eating out each meal as a daily expenditure seemed science fiction. I also aspired to do better and I never recall feeling resentment when others were prospering disproportionately better than I was. Just because everyone can’t afford whatever they want doesn’t make it unfair but it does create opportunities for all of us to weigh our choices more carefully. I’m thrilled when someone trades in their $120,000 two year old car for $50,000 with only 15,000 miles. I like buying that car rather than the $50,000 new car that so many buy on credit for 72 months. Horses for courses....so back to audio.

We have been spoiled that audio gear typically depreciated quickly at first and then slowly/not at all thereafter. That still applies with really good, high demand equipment....not so much with items that are viewed by the buying public as compromised or commoditized items. How come nobody posts a new thread with the title “ I paid too much for an item several years ago because I assumed it would be worth more when I sell it when something better comes along” or “I’m embarrassed that the buying public doesn’t place a high value on my lousy cables that I’m trying to dump”.

just sayin...

Used cables used to be easy to sell at a 50% discount.  Now it is more like 75 percent just to get an even lower bid.  In addition, most of the sales for me come from Asia.  You send it to an address in California.  They forward it to the buyer in Asia.  It probably gets resold in the Asian
 market.

The high end market is doing better than ever. Ordinary bits of wire for multiple $1000s. Fuses for $150 ($149 profit to the seller) and you can buy contact paste that is 100,000 times more expensive than toothpaste!

Profits have never ever been higher!

This is a really interesting thread as the same discussion has been around for a number of years in South Africa mainly because of our weak currency. $1 costs us +- R13.50. When you consider that R1 used to cost us .75 US cents (+- 50 years ago) things have got out of hand. So HEA is very expensive here. Having said this we have not a bad variety of HEA to chose from. So I have what i consider not to bad a system. Sonus Faber Amati futura Mcintosh 601power amps ML 523 pre amp Dcs Puccini etc. So 2 weekends ago i got to hear the Kii3's. These were one of the first 2 sets that arrived in South Africa. In my opinion, if I did not have what i have i would be entirely happy to purchase this system. Incredible dynamic  range very open and detailed. Voices and acoustics amazing and at about a 1/5th of what my system cost. Could this be the way of the future for HEA. High end streaming plus the option of integrating you existing system. Sure to appeal to a large spectrum of Audiophiles and budding audiophiles out there. And the BXT base add ons were launched also 2 weeks ago as well. This is my opinion. What do you think?

I've noticed very high prices for quality used gear on Ebay.   My Nakamichi 7A cassette deck I purchased for $700 in 1990 is now $1,500 to $5,900 averaging $2,500 (more than new), my Marantz 7T pre-amp I purchased for $150 in 1995 is now $1,200 to $3,000 with several in the mid-$2,000s, my Mac MC30s which I was given in 2000 are now $1000-$2000, my SME IV which I paid $1100 in 1989 is now $4,700 NEW (and being used on the latest SME turntable).   

So, some high end older audio gear has vastly appreciated in the current market.  I think speakers have dropped the most unless they are Tannoys or Altecs from the 50's and 60's.  My Legacy Focus speakers sold today for $12,000 are not the same as my 25 year old pair which now resell for only $2200-$2500 (a bargain).   

If I replace my speakers, I'm looking at $50-60K for Einsteins, Luminwhites or Von Schweikert VR55Ks.  That's high end dollars.

johnread57

How can we determine a fair price?

A fair price is what a willing buyer will pay to a willing seller.

I blame Apple. It's Gresham's Law in action: bad currency will drive out the good. Apple made the fateful decision not to make full-resolution files available from the iTunes store. This decision, as with most corporate decisions, was driven by greed--you can pack far more downloads (at $.99 each!) of crappy-sounding down-rezzed files into the available bandwidth. In my day, all "software" (LP's and tapes) was inherently full-resolution. Reproduction quality was limited only by your equipment. Now over a generation has grown up with no idea of what hi-fil sound is like. So why would they lust for it as I did when a teen in the '60's?

 Reality sucks. Like when you don’t get what you think is a fair price. Here or on eBay. Then the question turns to sell it or keep it for a second system? Of course it depends. 

How can we determine a fair price? Is the auction method a better way?

  

  I am a person who has loved music for many years. My present system gives me great listening pleasure. I own a BAT-VK500,Krell CDplayer, KEF speakers,Basis Ovation turntable,McIntosh tuner,Nightigale cartridge,DaCapo cartridge, Cardas cable,DCCA cable,Purist Audio cable,HiFi tuning fuses , and a Krell  KRC-HR preamp, a very huge CD and  vinyl collection.
   At this stage of my life,I have every intention to enjoy, what I have,and not look to change,just because something is new. In the higher end systems,the bang for the buck is very small.

While all of the responses have a real foundation, I believe a key reality is missing from them.  Just as the used car market and dollar store sales/stock goes up in tough times/recession, with a corresponding drop in New car sales and designer store sales, such as bed bath and beyond....the same is true across markets.  We are in relatively good times compared to the recession.  During the recession, used products took on greater value as people held onto whatever money they had, avoiding new hi cost purchases.  Now that times are better in comparison, used sales are less robust, as people are more inclined to buy what they want new, with a strong dab of price shopping and caution.  Ofcourse, the caveat here, is that audio is not a necessity, especially where family concerns come into play.  The best time to sell your older gear and buy new replacement, may well be on the cusp of, or tail end of recession, for these reasons.

When the time approaches, I will not "go gentle into that good night".  I will enjoy my over-engineered, tube-burning two-channel system with unrestrained satisfaction. I will avail myself of excellent, used gear whenever the desire take me, and I will do so without distraction of current "trends".  "Rage, rage against the dying of the light" and drive those deeply discounted vintage mono-blocks into the good night.

I have mid-range stuff- QED, Revolver, Time Frames and Nakamichi, late 80s mid- 90s or earlier. and would have loved a Bryston and a couple of the better Elipsons (money issues)
People have snapped up these old units (try to find a Dragon killer). Most important is component complementarity, speaker placement and the room itself. Best rooms are high-ceilinged rooms with real plaster. European equipment was made to sound good in the kind of rooms they had. N.Am. dealt with gyprock
I have a friend who went through several cycles of expensive equipment because the units did not work well together, but has finally got some reasonable sound in spite of the poor room, in part by strategically placing bookcases and sound absorbers etc. to create a symmetrical room, as well as changing some components.

Money, money, money; only the rich have it. and as someone said above
we grew up to expect the kind of stereo sound in theatre halls or chamber music venues, like chapels, and early systems tended towards that. Since MP3, a serious dumbing down, although true full digital lossless recordings are very good.

Records also sound different when you change a piece of equipment and you can "rediscover" all your records; also, old farts like myself like the stage of instrument placement as well as good colour, presence and ambience. My QED provides "civilised" sound that I can listen to for hours. The Nakamichi is too boomy; you can contact me if interested in this type of equipment.

All in all, whereas I used to see stuff I could afford and even bought some speakers here, prices are in another galaxy on most of the stuff. I wouldn't even know where to start.

Part of the problem is that today "if it doesn't travel, I ain't interested".

 I also have found it interesting that so many trends have been "re-discovered". Vinyl, integrated amps, magnetic tape; what's old is new again. This will no doubt happen with CD's also. Buy 'em while they're cheap!

Thanks to trickle-down economics, combined with the idea that corporations are in business purely to make as much money as possible, we now have a highly stratified society with wealth extremely concentrated at the top.  A million dollar system is not a problem for some people, while a thousand dollars is impossible for virtually everyone else.  Manufacturers are only going to be able to survive either by appealing to one or the other - there is no middle left to speak of.
And that million dollar system is really only there as a big middle finger to impress the less wealthy.  There must be virtually zero correlation between wealth and audiophilia!  No wonder the snake oil contingent seem to be doing so well.

I’m not high end audio type, but I do enjoy the two channel experience, spin vinyl and fuss over my old equipment. So what I find here at Audiogon is thoughtful conversation about options and a better quality marketplace than eBay. It’s a crapshoot on eBay but the quality control in this community helps a buyer know the product is going to perform once purchased. This site has a great seller review system and that means a lot when moving away from bricks and mortar sellers. 

That said, I am sitting on several old components and not getting them sold—so my interest in this thread. A Belles amp used to be worth something and now it seems the buyer interest is low. 

See those prices ! You can buy a Mecedes Bens or a Audi 5 down payment on a house get back your money down the road

@jmcgrogan2 

I would concede your points that some dealers use Audiogon today as a fully inflated classifieds listing rather than the clearinghouse for gear we all once experienced here. Much like the starting price in an auto negotiation rather than a congenial swap meet style pricing seen at audio clubs back in the day.

Sometimes I wish I wasn't so analytical. I deal with data.  My entire career has been trying to separate real facts from human perceptions in order to accurately predict consumer behavior. When I hear a group of 60 year olds discussing the gradual demise of Howard Johnsons, Steak & Ale and today the decline of Applebees or TGI Fridays I just chuckle. I close my eyes and think of an industry that once sold convenience and time rather than food and nourishment like the consumer base believed at the time.  Home meal replacement was a long trend that has reversed radically in that space.  The same goes for the IT industry.  Anyone remember Compaq, Sperry, DEC? Every kid in a Starbucks carries more computing power in their smartphone than utilized to put a man on the moon. In electronics...the list goes forever, Fisher, Marantz, Bozak, McIntosh, Klipsch and GE all were dominant players is audio making well though of products.....only McIntosh and Klipsch have remained relevant and they have done so quite differently.

So, please forgive me when I hear that an industry is dying or suffering that I immediately go into analysis mode. Is the industry dying, changing or being displaced. The answer is absolutely, all three apply and apply every day to every industry.  The energy business isn't dying because out of work coal miners say it is, manufacturing isn't dying because someone in one part of the world can manufacture steel more efficiently.  Commerce always dictates change, it always has and always will. Technological change has been happening since the the beginning of time, its happening right now.

Does music exist to serve audio equipment or is audio equipment there to serve the music?

Agreed John. This is not a matter of argument and just a statement of the facts as they are.  High end is changing and for the good in my estimation.  Now is paying $10,000 for $40,000 speakers that reviewed very highly is a fair market price? Those that say so are just saying the fair market price is now in the tank.  We agree on that.  Perhaps we are all saying the same thing. 

@ghasley 

Everything you said in your above post makes some sense. However, I personally have NEVER stated that HEA is dead. The industry is certainly changing and is certainly contracting, at least in comparison to what it was in its hey day. ( Probably in the late 80's or early 90's) 
The fact is that there are certainly some VERY overpriced pieces for sale on all of these web sites...and in the B&M outlets. OTOH, I also notice that if something is considered well priced, its marketing time is usually fairly short. The lower priced items definitely have a larger market demographic than the higher priced items ( generally regardless of the discount from new pricing). 
My OP was asking what happened to the USED high end market and ....recently.

Guys, I promise I’m not trying to start a debate or an argument, that isn’t me. I merely try to observe measurables. I’m a hobbyist like most here and I’ve done about 20 buy/sell transactions on here this year. All were concluded with fair prices and with a fine velocity. 

High end isn’t dying like everyone is saying, its just changing. Audiogon 20 years ago was THE place but today transactions are happening on numerous websites, dealers today have their own websites. Brick and martar stores have had to change to remain relevant (or they close) because so many manufacturers have come on the scene and sell direct to the consumer. Never in the history of the high end has there been more fine gear choices to so many than today. The market is extremely fragmented though. 

I see posts on this forum discussing how the high end is dead because a mom and pop store in Fort Wayne has closed. I see posts contemplating the meaning of a pair of $100,000 speakers being introduced as further evidence that the industry is dead. Old stores that are unable or refuse to change will inevitably close. Another distribution channel will emerge and life moves ahead. People consume music differently with each generation but they do still consume. More humans are listening to music today than at any time in human history. Just because they dont listen to an esoteric vinyl pressing in a dedicated music room with 8 foot tall speakers doesn’t mean the high end is dead. Its verifiable that there are more manufacturers of 2 channel tube amps today than in 1950 and thats just 1 example. Choices abound. There are so many exceptional speakers being made today by so many diffrent manufacturers from 1 person companies all the way up in scale. Magico introduces a new $10,000 speaker last month and they are already on backorder. There are more great dacs sold today than 10 years ago....the evidence is out there.

Pricing and availability of used gear is a slippery slope. Personally, data like this must be carefully examined. Just because something is selling at a percentage you find too low doesnt mean an industry is dead, it means the free market is working. Besides, the percentages being tossed around here are relevant if all the data were available. The 10% speaker cable example we would need to know the original list, the actual price your friend paid and the brand and type of cable to truly determine what happened. I know of nothing good that drops 90% in 1 year. The other example of 25% off new gear through a dealer on a piece of gear once would have been viewed by many on this site as excellent news. Maybe it would have been digested by hobbyists as “its about time”. What we know about bricks and mortar shops is that distribution channel typically marked up their products by almost double. When the manufacturer direct sales model emerged that carried with it the potential for the producer to offer something new for almost half price compared to a brick and martar product. Again, that would have been hailed as a triumph for the consumer.

When a new manufacturer comes on the scene with a new product and he/she sells it direct, I don’t see posts like “another nail in the coffin of high end”. Just because the old business model hobbyist or manufacturer doesn’t like the way the new business model hobbyists or manufacturers are doing business doesn’t make the high end market dead, it just makes it different. EVERY industry is in a constant state of change. I will say though that if your audio world was centered around that shop in Fort Wayne, then your perspective is accurate....your high end world is dying. But also at least concede that from your couch in Fort Wayne, you can assemble a complete world class system that will be shipped to your door in a few days with just a few clicks on your computer. That’s actually terrific news for the consumption of music....its accessable to virtually anyone at every price point, new or used.

Well said grannyring,
It’s a buyers market deluxe for sure,I haven’t seen such low prices ever on all kinds of top notch gear in my 40 yrs in this hobby.

Even some of the rare vintage stuff,before 1980,isn’t selling that good even to Asia.

Kenny.

Few have purchased and sold as much as me on this site since it started many years ago. Stuff is just not moving in general and prices are at all time lows. It is a clear reflection of our changing hobby. High End Audio as we have known it is indeed dying. Is it going to be gone for good? No.  It is and will continue to change. Most of us are just fed up with the over inflated prices and have either opted out, gone DIY, or found gear as good for 1/10 the price of typical high end stuff. The discounts my audio friends are getting their gear for is amazing. 25% of list price on top notch gear is not uncommon today. This is not a good time to sell gear.  Always exceptions for many good reasons, but the general trend is down and down sharply.  

@ghasley

Last time I looked, this is a public forum. How smart would it really be to name names?
To say that the cables that my a’phile friend sold for a fraction of the list price weren’t very well thought of may be true...or may not be. Question is whether your “expected “ returns on your used cables could really be realized. Like others have pointed out on this thread, there are many sellers who are deluding themselves with their asking prices. Are you one of those or not...the market that we all find ourselves in at this point will dictate that, not your hyperthetical musings. Sounds like a very good thing that you are happy with your gear, for the moment.

@daveyf 

Again, to beat the dead horse a little more, I have successfully bought and sold several items this year. Both types of transactions were pretty quick, less than 1 week typically soup to nuts.  I've sold some NOS tubes that went quickly for my asking price, several cables, accessories, etc all went for what I considered good prices to fellow Audiogoners both young and old. I sold some speakers that listed new for just north of $20,000 for just north of $10k. They were 3 years old and in excellent condition.  I've purchased some gear both here (gently preowned) and from dealers new/demo.

Respectfully, your friend selling cables for 10% of list indicates they are not very well thought of by the audio community at large...new or used. I have a pair of Transparent Gen 5 Reference speaker cables at home and Auditorium 23 speaker cables in my office and the latest Transparent cables would probably sell for 50-60% of list fairly easily and the A23's probably 80% of list. So, if something sold for 10% of list.....they were probably not that good were they?  In other words, scarcity and perceived quality drive any commodity's demand and value. You must use a better example than "your nameless friend sold some unnamed cables for 10% of list so therefore the hobby is going to shyte". That is an uncorrelated data point and unfair to the community. The sky isn't falling.

@ghasley 

Not sure where you are looking, but if it is on this site, there appears to be plenty of selection and 'inventory' available. 
While I totally agree with you that pricing is the number 1 determinant of how quickly something is going to sell, I also know that several of my fiends who have tried to sell their gear recently on this site and the few others that are utilized for used sales, have experienced a long drawn out process with little success. OTOH, was their price too high...probably. One guy did give his speaker cables away ( his comment, not mine) for 10% of the retail price that he paid less than a year before!
( Perhaps he paid way too much to begin with....that would be my thought; although he adamantly disputes that).

shadorne, just curious, have you tried pasting your tin foil hat with Graphene yet?