I’m not sure exactly what I’m getting at, but a friend used to host a series of live acoustic jams in his good sized apartment. They got fantastic musicians and David Grisman even showed up and played at one. I used to use those events to fine tune my ears (sometimes closing my eyes) to hear what live music from up close in a domestic setting sounded like. The sound and room colorations varied based on my position and players position, just like a stereo would.
The thing that struck me was that no matter the room interaction, the timbre and signature of the live instruments didn’t seem to change even though the room reflections did.
here's what I did for a start on the 1 ft. soffit that faces the speakers. I bought some styrofoam/spongey like gutter guards from home depot and layered 3 of them to the top of soffit all the way across, which is 12 ft. It has improved the SQ. I can hear individual instruments more clearly with more sustain. I'm going to cover the rest of the soffit with these and see what may or may not come about. my guess is the flat surface of the soffit was reflecting frequencies back at the speakers and canceling out those certain frequencies?
Some interesting products mentioned! I haven’t thought of digital room control before. I’ve been listening and adjusting the past few days and have gotten to the point where I’m really satisfied, a combination of panels, bass traps, diffusers, and hybrid products.
interesting topic. I have my wall behind my speakers treated and the room has carpet and furniture. it also has a 1 ft. soffit from the ceiling that divides the room in half that faces the speakers. should I be treating the flat surface of the soffit also?
It is impossible by ears with only passive materials treatment....I confirm mijostyn...
And the reason is exactly what he said...BUT there is a big but,
But room acoustic is not ONLY and MAINLY a passive sets of bouncing walls waiting to be measured with a precise test of "very precise" frequency...It is an heterogeneously pressurized engine...Sound is waves in an OCEAN where pression may vary...
Then the room is also a possible ACTIVE participant and materials treatment is only the PASSIVE side to acoustic controls....
Then all rule had exception, to made it by ears is possible, i did it...It is not "perfect" but not too away from perfect because the test is simple and it is not soundstage and imaging perception ONLY, those 2 concepts are important, but way more is the "TIMBRE" perception which is the benchmark test if you want to know if the room acoustic is able to give a good S.Q.
The only way to achieve it by ears is using ACTIVE non electronic controls, impossible tough in a living room; an Helmholtz array of 18 tubes and pipes finely tuned by their neck to their volume and distribued in a series of 3, with a Fibonacci ratio, with lengh spanning 8 feet to less than one feet and different volumes....This array modify greatly the frequencies response of the room in the main audible scales all at once adjusted by your ears, making the room no more a passive set of wall reflecting waves but an active pressurized Helhmoltz engine actively tuned to simultaneously the speakers response and the room response and IMPORTANTLY to your specific ears all at the same time.....
It takes a dedicated room to make that..... This is the only problem....
All my material treatment are homemade, and allmost all my devices...Cost: peanuts...Only fun....But long time to work adjustement.... But not so long for you if you know what you do.... Nobody explain that to me in audio thread it takes time for me to figure it out.... Audion thread are plague by electronic design vocabulary and marketing , not by acoustical deep laws and solutions....Audio is acoustic first not ONLY audio engineering sorry....
Never say it is impossible then .... I speak by my experiment....The test if you want to know if you succeeed is simple:
There is no way a voice or a piano, a harpsichord, a string orchestra or a brass orchestra could sound natural in most wrongly treated or non treated room especially not without active controls.... Even fine tuning each frequency with precise test frequency sample has his limitation and is PRECISE for ONE very,very precise spot .... Then i must add that my room is fine tuned so well, i could listen to 2 locations 5 feet apart.... One is better than all my 7 headphones(near listening) the other one more regular resemble a lived event filling my room with no sound coming from the speakers and no sound captive between the speakers....Why can i listen well in 2 spots? because i fine tune the room, one step at a time, simulateously for these 2 positions ....
That is my experiment...
I will buy a mic this summer to "refine" the speakers response using my ears also but it will be a fine tuning NOT the main tool for my room at all...Like mijostyn did with all the LIMITATIONS and cost that this method ask for...
Remember this: Even fine tuning each frequency scale one by one has his limitation and is PRECISE for ONE very .very precise spot and does not take in charge the structure of your specific ears, the frequency response is analysed not by your specific ears but by an apparatus, and for a definite set of test frequencies only.... It is a means to adjust the room/speakers, not a means to adjust your specific ears/room/ and speakers at the same time....Do you catch the "nuance" ?
For the guys who are thinking about digital room control, yes, it is a must. But, you have to use room treatment to resolve the worse issues. If you do not you are going to waste power and headroom, possibly clip your filters and blow a speaker. Correcting a 6 dB deficit costs you 4 times the power, 10 dB 10 times the power. I have seen plenty of rooms 10 dB off at some frequencies. Without room control you can not make your system perform absolutely symmetrically at all frequencies. It is extremely hard, near impossible to get the best imaging without it. The problem is that no two speakers have exactly the same frequency response. Then you put them in different locations and the variations wider further. Doing this by ear is futile even by millercarbon:-) The best set up techs will use a calibrated mic to test each speaker in the system then retest after adding room treatment. You can resolve the worse issues this way but fine tuning like this, a couple of dB here and there and getting the system symmetrical is impossible to do with room treatment. This is the best use of any room control system.
I am not a big Dirac fan. I prefer purpose built units like the DEQX, Anthem and Trinnov units. I do not like the Lyngdorf units. They use the most primitive version of TacT's system (Lyngdorf was a share holder of TacT and was responsible for European distribution). Boz never licensed him to use his high power system. Lyngdorf also forces you to use his built in amplifier which has a hard time driving ESLs. I owned the TacT version for a while. So I am speaking from direct experience.
NMM thanks for mentioning ASC Isotherm. I have been looking at them for quite some time. seems like a good advance.
I did get to hear a demo room using active bass cancellation as the last NY Audio show, which I’ve always wondered about, but stupidly I forgot to ask them to turn off the devices to hear the effect. I can say that in the room next door the bass leaking through was overwhelming, since it was not cancelling bass at that location, but seemingly adding it. Different topic but getting the speakers really far out into the room is extremely important, and also listening in mid field can give you a sense of what it it sounds like to get the room further out of the equation.
ATS is great place to get affordable panels or DIY for most economical. Knauf Ecose with FSK facing (white poly on one side) is best for taming bass and room nodes. Not sure ATS offers the FSK version. I found at insulation supply store. Built frames of wood from box store, thick cardboard or 1/4 plywood backs that come 2x4'. Fabric wrapped. Made 6 2'x4' for about $300. Very effective. Corner bass traps prob better but in my modest room would be too intrusive, visually. I didn't have a first reflection problem.
I totally agree with Mijostyn 3 My absorbers (styrofoam) are behide the Maggies also I use defusers on side walls music is front and center stage awesome sound
Are you handy? I used Owens Corning 703 panels for first reflection points on sidewalls and ceiling. Wrapped them in fabric, very easy and inexpensive. Made a huge improvement in soundstage and imaging. Just be cautious while handling (mask, gloves, long sleeve shirt, etc.) and do out in the garage if you can.
Whatever you decide, just start with first reflection points and then see how you like it. It might be all you need.
Been using ASC half and quarter rounds for years now along with their panels and have had great success in every room they’ve been used in but the new ASC Isotherm traps are a big leap forward in performance. Increased absorption factor, deeper reach and improved articulation.
Stillpoints Aperature Panels series 2 8 were transformative in my room.I have tried Tube Traps,Echo busters etc these are by far the best.Not cheap but worth every penny.
While I did answer your question truthfully, it is also true that my room, with just the Soffit Traps would still not sound good.
You need a critical mass of room treatment to reap the rewards, so I agree with the statements above that it's a combination of traps, diffusors and absorbers, strategically placed, that are totally worth investing in.
I would not approach this as an experiment of individual tweaks.
I made (8) 4' x 2' x 2" panels, with fabric, mounting hardware and shipping costs for just over $200 with products from ATS Acoustics. I mounted 6 of these in my home office and it made a dramatic improvement in the sound of my system. The other 2 panels got mounted in our family room to help tame some of the echo that was present.
I've experimented with a few different products and the best result so far is a combination of panels, diffusers, bass trap and a lot of time listening and adjusting. Like @noromance I don't recommend acoustic foam, they have a deadening quality and is more suitable for recording studios. In a listening environment, the frequencies needs to be controlled but remains lively sounding. The first reflection on the side wall next to the speakers are the most critical and makes the biggest difference. The best I've tried so far is a discontinued diffuser product by Auralex similar to GIK Gridfusor, these diffusers just sound so natural and balanced but they are not the best looking. I'm wondering if anyone has experience with GIK PolyFusor or Auralex T'Fusor on the side walls?
REW software, a UMIK microphone, and time to learn about acoustics and measuring.
Rooms are so different, as are preferences, that until you really know what you want to change and why, suggestions about products just creates a needle-in-a-haystack problem for you.
Once you spend some time learning (including critical listening) what you can do with what you have (speaker position, listening position, objects already in your space), you can then move on to what needs to be adjusted -- and which product types will do that.
@mijostyn Don’t use those acoustic foam tiles. They sound bad. I had a bunch of them and thought they took the edge off but something wasn’t right. When I removed them, everything sounded nice again. They distort the sound and add a grey harshness.
Critical drywall angles on ceiling. Lambs wool panels at 5 locations woven wool carpet 2 home grown music directors on floor 1 music fan oh and 3 Argent Room Lenses silly for some dilberts inspiring for those with ears and mind. Tom
Helmholtz is fine and I am on board but can we have a how-to?
I wil not repeat what is in my thread...
😁
Begin with 3 bricks with holes where i plant the pipes..... And 3 sets of 3 pipes whose lenght is between near 7 foot the second pipe in the 1,6 ratio to the first and the third same ratio to the second...For the second set chose under one feet less than the first set for the longer pipe, keep the same ratio for the other 2 pipes... For the third set, choose around one feet less for the longer pipe keep the same ratio 1,6 between pipes... The fine art is the adjustment of the neck/straw....I used my ears...
The 9 pipes will balance themselves and you add to each pipes one regular straw whose lenght must be chosen with the ears for the three sets.......Between the mouth of the pipes and the straw i use a plactic ordinary sheet i pieirce with my toothpick....The straw is glued on this hole...It is call the meck of the Helmholtz bottles...Here it is copper ordinary plumbers pipes... You can use different plumber tubes in PVC...
Anyway i use 18 in all....With one 8 feet high....In my 8 geet and 1/2 room...
With the right passive material acoustical treatment it work miracles and complement it by working with the sound like many different pressured engines making the room more active in the delivering of the sound.... It is no more only waves bouncing back on passive walls... the room contain hererogenuous pressure zones now.... It is the Helmholtz silent organ.....
Cost: almost nothing like ALL my devices...
i called that my Helmholtz-Fibonacci room tuner....
Helmholtz is fine and I am on board but can we have a how-to?
The ones that really worked the most for me are Synergistic Research HFT. I have the full Speaker Kit on both speakers, and I forget what level they call it but several sets in the room. If you look close you can see some of them on my system page. https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367
Most people only use passive materials, acoustically absorbent, reflective and diffusive one... It is some work to look for the right balance between these three...Passive acoustic treatment is ALWAYS necessary...
But in a SMALL difficult not so ideal irregular room we must use also more active devices...
I recommend a grid of Helmholtz tubes and pipes, which will activate the room ...When rightly adjusted for your ears/room it will improve the relation speakers/room...Description is in my thread and they cost peanuts ...Easy to make...
We listen to our active room not only to the speakers EVEN in near listening, unbeknown to most...
Acoustic devices are not secondary addition or tweaks, they are more impactful than most upgrade...
The right places depend entirely on the type of speakers you are using and the room. For common omnidirectional speakers first reflection points on the front wall behind and between the speakers and on the side walls next to the speakers are the most important places to deaden. For dipoles like Magneplanars just directly behind the speakers is fine.
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