I was just pondering power cords today . I started wondering what kind of power cords come with expensive gear . Over A few grand up to cost no object pieces . If they come with run of the mill black rubber shielding cords i can convince myself to never buy an aftermarket power cable again .
Any owners of said equipment or with knowledge on this subject please chime in .
Drjaym, that would be the case of resistive load but linear power supplies draw narrow spikes of very high amplitude current causing much bigger voltage drops than one would expect. Also, they pollute with noise as much or worse than switching power supplies.
How many of you aftermarket PC guys rewire your house power system feeding your sound system with a dedicated and clean earth of suitable diameter like say 35 mm sq cable, cos if you don't do something about the power supply putting a monster power cord onto the system will do nothing more than make it easier for the junk in your mains to get into your system (maybe that's why it sounds more "colourful" with the big thick lead!!
You are only replacing a meter of cable with a flexible bus bar system what are you doing with the mains are you spending thousands on power conditioning equipment and filtration before you plug your lead into the power or just using the mains as is with all it's crap and harmonics from all your neighbours switch mode power supplies?
I use a 3 Kva UPS with good filtering on my system simply because I don't want to blow the processor in the telly which is probably the most expensive collection of chips in the house ;) The amp runs tubes and is direct wired inside open ended triode with no printed circuits. I see no need to spend mega bucks on a piece of copper for the mains as the volt drop on a meter of lead is sweet FA unless you are drawing enough current to heat the lead up,the resistance of your mains lead will be well below 1 ohm even if it is 1.5 mm sq cable and as most of your amps are drawing less than 500 watts of power which is on our mains of 230 volts is 2.2 amps give or take a milli amp or two which come out at less than half a volt on the lead with a monster lead you will reduce that to about 1/8th of a volt so your lead is gaining you 3/8 of sweet FA volts and you think that is going to mske a difference to your performance. pull the other leg it has bells on it ;)
Schipo , to bad your ears aren't as good as your nose . Many people can't hear small changes in audio , I guess your one of them , nothing wrong with that , but getting rude and insulting is just plain childish . Is that the way you want to depict yourself ?
everytime u picked out in a blind test with no problem most power cords without diffculty? Not at all thats just bunk and I can smell it miles away...the stench is high in your corner and as I stated earlier. Your mommy must have told you that you were special..your not.
Being a member of an audio club , I've participated in a hundred and one blind tests and I could pick out most cords without difficulty , it's really not that difficult if you know what to listen for . Try it for yourself someday you might learn something .
In DBT you can never prove the null (that there's never a difference), only fail to reject it. It's like trying to prove a negative: it can't be done.
DBTs are meant to see if there are small differences that can be detected. Those small differences aren't easily picked out due to lots of reasons: room interactions, training, acuity, speaker placement, resolving power of system, etc.
Small differences are harder to quantify but are there, nonetheless. Not being able to put it into words doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Those small differences can haunt you as the gestalt of the music can mask the effects. With so much going on in a performance the ability to pick it out every time isn't possible but it's felt.
No one here can argue that we can pick out a difference visually more easily than aurally and yet we don't do it reliably each and every time, yet the differences are there ALL the time for us to see. Has anyone addressed the aspect as to why our brains don't process the very same info in the same manner every single time?
Placebo affect places an undue and inevitable stress on the evaluator that can never be erased from the equation. Casual listening is a much easier way to detect differences. We are not on guard, adrenalin levels are normal.
Formula meant to specify inductance, resistance, etc as pertains to a music signal being transmitted over wire are standardized. Can anyone tell me if the formula assumes that only copper wire is being used and not aluminum, gold, bronze, etc.?
What kind of insulation was used at the time of the standardization? Is it assumed that only one type is to be used or are small variations in metallurgy and insulation a given as long as they fall into the formula?
What happens when other metals are introduced into the equation? As I remember, all metals are not alike. There is a reason why they are separated on the periodic table: each successive metal had one more proton than the one preceding it. Wouldn't that have an effect on signal transmission, albeit a small one? Wouldn't a purer form of a metal give it a slightly different property? Mixing metals certainly would.
On other threads here it has already been established that what makes science so great is that it is disprovable. There are no absolutes. Never.
I know I hear differences in cables. Having someone point and pound on a piece of paper that has some formula or equation doesn't sway me in the least. Maybe my ears are better than theirs. Maybe it's just that my system is more resolving. Maybe I don't have unresolved issues that would bias my hearing. Who knows?
There is a difference, small that it is but enough to change the flavor of music
Well, FM Acoustics (their entry level amps start at $~20k!) come with hard-wired cords. So, no aftermarket cord can be used -- FMA recommends to just listen to the music & not worry about power cords. A different approach...
then y not pick out that favorite power cord of yours in a double blind test...u want to bet the farm on that 1...I am guessing u wouldn't put up a dime...I notice that most of u like to open a nice brew while listening to your favorite toons. I am guessing that it helps u forget how much you paid for that silver 3ft 5" in diameter power cord that's no better then the cord that came with that five figure amp...that most likely ain't no better then an amp costing far less..I know you all want to hear what you would like everyone to hear, that's so you can pat yourself on the back for being an outstanding individual. Maybe your mothers told you that you had divine powers, or you think you're a descendant of the amazing kreskin. Many debunked fortune tellers have been outed by James Randi. You can watch it on youtube and really feel somewhat embarrassed for them. As they the psychics do their best when straining their brains trying desperately with no better then a guess. I would love to see some of you sanctimonious fools fold like a cheap camera. Squirming and sweating buckets of water while you twist in your seats trying your best to pick out that divine cable that is no better than a two dollar a ft cable from HD. But in reality you will find fault with the test. Go back to your same old ways, thumbing your nose and digging into your pockets for fairy dust with a tinker bell mentality.
There goes Schipo again , the non audiophile , knocking power cords because he is so rapped up in his preconceived science ideals that he can't hear clear and undeniable improvements in sound quality . Science can never explain the beauty of music , and only a dough head would try .
02-16-13: Schipo 01-28-13: Jmcgrogan2 Because I believe in an actual science of acoustics. I must despise this hobby? You sir are a naive idiot. Who in your ignorance believes in not a truth but what you consider the truth. It's your dough spend it as you like. But to ignore common sense and the natural laws of science is complete looney.
Now I'm gonna go buy some Stealth Sakra interconnects AND Nordost Odin speaker cables AND (5) Purist 25th Anniversary power cords, just to make YOUR head explode ....hahahahahahaha
Remember, your 'laws of science' are an ever expanding field of knowledge, based on what we currently CAN explain. As we humans continue to evolve, and our minds and comprehension continues to develop, the laws change. Your type existed several centuries ago too....and swore that the earth was flat.
Continue to limit your mind to the current limitations of science if you wish. You should not call others names who believe that the world is not flat though, for one day your 'science' may catch up and figure out how to measure what we are hearing.
By all means, continue to listen with your eyes, reading what some science report says you should hear. However, just because you choose to limit your mind to boundries set by the current limitations of scientific understanding, don't expect others to limit their minds as well.
01-28-13: Jmcgrogan2 Because I believe in an actual science of acoustics. I must despise this hobby? You sir are a naive idiot. Who in your ignorance believes in not a truth but what you consider the truth. It's your dough spend it as you like. But to ignore common sense and the natural laws of science is complete looney.
What does a pissing contest have to do with power cords? Your logic eludes me, but then again, nonsense is not supposed to make sense, maybe it's supposed to be funny?
Orpheus10, your two posts make it appear as if you listen with your eyes. Relax, this isn't a pissing contest. No one's is better than yours, just as yours isn't better than anyone else's.
Before anybody goes off the deep end, I'm simply applying these formulas to power cords, and nothing else. That flakey AC coming out of the wall hasn't changed, and a power cord is not going to change it. A heavy gauge power cord with good connectors on both ends is going to work as well as any according to these laws. Now give me your "snake oil" explanation as to why yours is better than mine.
P = power (Watts)
V = voltage (Volts)
I = current (Amperes)
R = resistance (Ohms)
Electric Current Formulas I = V / R (2a)
I = P / V (2b)
I = (P / R)1/2 (2c)
Electric Resistance Formulas R = V / I (3a)
R = V2/ P (3b)
R = P / I2 (3c)
Electrical Potential Formulas - Ohms Law Ohms law can be expressed as:
V = R I (4a)
V = P / I (4b)
V = (P R)1/2 (4c)
Example - Ohm's law A 12 volt battery supplies power to a resistance of 18 ohms.
Schipo, you're going to bust a lot of balloons, and rain on parades talking like that; but I've saved tons of money by buying equipment that's been reviewed by blind tests.
Most of the higher end gear I purchased came with beefy power cords but nothing special . Fine tuning the sound with cords is such a personal preference that suppling an expensive cord would be in most cases fruitless .
With my experience of 2 products: Conrad Johnson Premier 350 and Lamm ML2.1 both comes with standard looking cords but voiced to match their products. They confirmed that those cords were custom ordered with purpose.
" ....it makes sense to provide an inexpensive power cord with any component. audiophiles like to tune their systems with after-market power cords...."
Not Always ....
REGA, LFD, and NAIM are among the few that provide (and recommend) their own high-end power cables for their high-end gear. As it was explained to me in general terms, they design / "custom tune" them for their kit.
Personally, the power cables that came bundled with my new REGA OSIRIS amp and ISIS cdp gear is a $200 - $300 range product custom made for them by KLOTZ in Germany. Top shelf construction here - nothing cheap here.
NAIM even has one much, much higher in the $$ range for their kit.
I was initially skeptical. Ultimately I was very pleasantly surprised that they out-performed my other expensive after-market OYAIDE, ECOSSE, and FURUTECH cables modded with their very expensive top gold plated connectors.
Again, the latter cords are still killer power cords in their own right that take on most comers; it's just that the REGA high-end cords worked best with the REGA gear.
These other power cables I faithfully still use as replacements in my B system and in my AV system with stellar results.
My expensive (for me) monoblocks came with POS PCs normally packaged with computers. Manufacturer shipped with these because he says everyone always ends up upgrading them anyway, so why bother trying to guess what each person will prefer. I agree, although this helps you not at all.
@Onhwy61, the upgraded fuses is a good question, because many of these manufacturers are already using exotic, boutique caps, resistors, diodes, internal wire, etc. The fuses fall more into that category, not costing hundreds, or thousands of dollars.
IMHO, the power cord, interconnects and speaker cables are a different category because so many of them are so much more expensive than high end caps, fuses, etc.
Interesting responses. I assume what has been said about power cords also applies to fuses? The manufacturer should just supply the amp with a generic fuse on the assumption that an audiophile will replace it with one of their choosing. I imaging any tubes would also fall into this category. But where does it end? Should the manufacturer also assume that the audiophile user will replace the speaker binding posts, capacitors, power ICs, internal wiring, resistors, input sockets, etc.? Why have a production amp at all, just do it a la carte.
"Various accessories such as power cords, interconnects, power conditioners, and even more so major components such as speakers, as well as analog or digital front ends, often have a significant effect on the sound of a music reproduction system.
Unfortunately, the sonic effect of such products is very much system dependent, and their particular desirability is very much a function of the musical and sonic preferences of an individual listener.
Therefore, as company policy, JRDG refrains from recommending any third party components or accessory products over other ones."
It would not make sense to provide any other than good quality generic power cable IMHO.
>>Audio Research ships their reference Series with cheap stock cords but they use expensive Shunyata cables at shows and in their factory listening room.
Possibly because they know that gullible, anal retentive audiophiles won't seriously listen to otherwise great audio gear unless it is connected to the hospital-grade power outlet via a power cord the approx. diameter of a well-stuffed kishka.
There was a time when a lot of high end gear came with captured power cords and plugs and we all thought it sounded great. As the cable business grew, fewer and fewer captured power cords. Not a coincidence. I have found a bigger difference in one record to the next than I ever have from one power cord to the next. But there is a difference and if somebody wants to buy a $10k power cord to experience that difference, have at it. Like Elizabeth, I can't hear beyond Pangea.
I'm always hoping the cheaper cable sounds better, I didn't want the after market power cord to improve the sound of my system. But unfortunately that wasn't the case.
Jmcgrogan2, thanks for your spot on observations of Schipo's comments. No reason to insult those of us who know we are not being duped. If you're (Schipo) smarter then everyone else on this site, perhaps your rare wisdom is better used elsewhere.
In recent years when I've purchased amplifiers the power cord that came with it seems to be identical to the Volex 17604 power cord now. The amps I bought had 14 AWG power cords had the name Baohing on them. When I ordered the Volex 17604 power cords from Newark they had the Baohing name on them as well. So maybe you may have a quality power cord right off the get go. j/k.
Now with more expensive gear I've seen some preamp and amp manufacturers work with a power cord maker and their cord would be included with the equipment.
If I was spending hard earned $$$ on really expensive gear I would want the power cord that the designer used to voice the gear. If not don't bother sending a power cord with it. There are so many power cord makers out there to choose from.
Schipo, it's obvious that you despise this hobby, so why do you hang around here? I despise women's $5000 Coach handbags...guess what? I don't hang around on Coach handbag forums.
You come off as someone who is bitter and jealous that some have more money than you do. That may not be the case, but it is how you are perceived.
Compared to the much of the animal kingdom, human beings have pretty terrible hearing. We have poor powers of echolocation, especially for sounds that come from behind us, we can only hear a relatively narrow bandwith of 20Hz-20kHz, and weÂre easily fooled by illusions.But perhaps the most convincing tricks are the ones we play on ourselves. Expectation is one of the most powerful forces in shaping our perception, and itÂs the reason that the same wine tastes better if weÂre told it costs $90 instead of $10. The same goes for our stereo systems if you show an audiophile an anaconda sized power cord and compare it visualy to an genric cord. Which one do u believe he/she will pick out as being the best sounding? This is why blind testing works best determining if changes made are viable.
This may echo some of the other responses but,I am glad they don't offer more than a adequate powercord. That give me the option to buy what I prefer. The debate about powercords can go on forever and a equipment manufacturer would be foolish to enter into that with a prejudice for one brand or another. I am not debating the effectiveness of aftermarket powercords, as I have on on 90% of my equipment. And I have a brand preference and would not like that idea that I paid an extra 200 or 500 dollars for a PC that I wouldn't use and couldn't sell. I could sell it because, I would need to keep it to maintain all original equipmenty, packing and manuals for resale.
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