What is your take on high efficient speakers vs. low efficient speakers?
Consider both designs are done right and your other equipment is well matched with the speakers. Do you have any preference when it comes to sound quality? Is it matter of economic decision when it comes to price? - power amps can become very expensive when power goes up, on the other hand large, efficient speakers are expensive as well. Is your decision based on room size? I'd love to hear from you on the subject.
@phusiswe have to disagree about something. Try driving an ESL with a SET amp. Do I smell something burning?
You can get good sound with passive systems and I have heard one passive system that got very close to the absolute sound but, you can take any passive system and make it better within the limits of the equipment and room.
@larryi, you can get reasonable sound out of a SET amp with efficient speakers but you will never get to the absolute sound. It is a path with a dead end.
What is the Absolute Sound? Go to Boston Symphony hall and sit 10th row dead center. Got to a small Jazz club and sit up front. Close your eyes and listen to each instrument. That is the Absolute Sound. This can be done in a home environment and there are several paths to this result but there are certain approaches that simply will not get you there. They may have a pleasing result but not a chance at Absolute Sound.
If you can close your eyes and feel like you are at a small jazz club you are on the right path. Cable elevators excluded
If you can close your eyes and feel like you are at a small jazz club you are on the right path. Cable elevators excluded
This is precisely what led me to SET. Very frequent attendance at local jazz venues for the past 30 or so years.We all find our own paths. I respect everyone’s road to Rome.
I am a fan of the low power / high efficiency pairing. I also feel that most higher efficiency speakers sound like live music and can be more dynamic. I think they often sound better at lower volumes. Just went from a pair of 40 watt Push Pull amps to a 300b and it's plenty of power for my space and listening habits.
Interesting question because it puts two legitimate concepts in opposition. One is the view that the less you mess with the signal, the better the sound. Therefore, simple, well-designed amps are “best.” And those are going to tend to be low power. You could argue that means high-sensitivity speakers must follow, so you’ve got the perfect pairing. Except speaker sound is totally subjective (“it’s all in your head!”), and the variations in speakers are vast compared to electronics. After decades of close listening, what if you learn you prefer a low-sensitivity speaker, like Magnepan in my case? Then I say you find the electronics to drive it and just enjoy it.
After decades of close listening, what if you learn you prefer a low-sensitivity speaker, like Magnepan in my case? Then I say you find the electronics to drive it and just enjoy it
Pure logic and experience clearly confirms this. Stubborn dogma isn’t persuasive or necessary. Choose what works and sounds best to you and pursue to the best of your ability.
Your approach is the opposite of mine. Does not matter, we both have found what individually suits best.👍
For example, 300B SET and ~95dB sensitivity 15" JBL or Tannoy in medium size room. If 300B SET build properly you can get enough dynamic headroom for any kind of music. From small jazz to symphonic music and rock.
The problem is - 99% of SET amplifiers designed and built for Lowther like speakers.
we have to disagree about something. Try driving an ESL with a SET amp. Do I smell something burning?
And it ain’t the toast. No, SET’s for when they make sense; with high to very high sensitivity speakers to take advantage of the less than 1 watt where the distortion levels found in these amps are extremely low here, just like with the speakers they’re feeding that efficiently turns electrical power into acoustic energy. Think about the power that’s wasted as heat with low sensitivity, passively driven dynamic speakers, not to mention the poor cone/diaphragm to air coupling - waste upon waste, really. It’s all about the most efficient transfer, and lastly from the speakers to the ears and how to "capture" the acoustic ditto here, which is also a reason why I’ve never dug heavy absorption - it potentially makes matters worse energy-wise:
No, SET’s for when they make sense; with high to very high sensitivity speakers to take advantage of the less than 1 watt where the distortion levels found in these amps are extremely low here, just like with the speakers they’re feeding that efficiently turns electrical power into acoustic energy.
Yes, this accurately describes my copacetic listening scenario. 8 watt SET mono blocks driving 94 db sensitivity /14-ohm impedance speakers. My typical listening levels sitting 10 feet away are C-weighted 65-75 SPL
Can dip to the mid 50s (softer passages) most ofren peaks (mid 80s).. I can listen at louder levels comfortably, but no need to.
At these very satisfying listening levels the SET is far below 1 watt of power (Small fractions of one watt) and doing so at a very low level of distortion (As you note). The sound is very tactile, resolved, pure, natural and quite emotionally engaging. Key take away is the amp and speaker must form a compatible match.
@charles1dad, I said "FEEL" like you are in a small Jazz club. I hate to be a stick in the mud but forgetting about SET, amps higher powered amplifiers have trouble getting low bass right. If you thick a SET amp can get even close you and I live in different universes. SET amps are for hobbyists, the guys who like short wave radios. To each his own for sure but I am talking about a specific level of performance one in a thousand systems might reach and not one of them will have a SET amp.
You are dogmatic and presumptuous in your dialogue. Let's just agree that you and I have very different experiences and perspective and leave it there. We both have found over the course of time what hast proven to satisfy our respective audio/music listening goals. We are both quite happy with our audio systems. Some on this thread can relate to my perspective and others here relate to yours. That's fine with me.
@charles1dad, dogmatic maybe, presumptuous, not at all. What you are listening to is a study in colored inaccuracy. You can like it all you want but calling it accurate is a big stretch.
To write off all SET in this manner is total nonsense. I've had ss class A and AB, push pull tubes with various power tubes, and SET with various power tubes. Low, medium and hgih sensitivity speakers with the above. So, it seems my evolution towards SET is in fact, a descent into inaccuracy according to mijostyn. I guess having living, breathing performers in room is in fact inaccuracy.
My Line Manetic Field Coils Speakers are 105db Sensitivity, Their are dynamic and yet smooth, musically invovling, My Classic Audio Loudspeakers are 100db Field Coils.
Both of these speakers to my ears give one dynamics as closer to live performance and as a result are more emotionally invovling and exciting to listen too. it does not bore you to death.
Been their and done that with low efficent speakers and high powered Tube or Solid State amps never again.
@charles1dad , dogmatic maybe, presumptuous, not at all. What you are listening to is a study in colored inaccuracy. You can like it all you want but calling it accurate is a big stretch.
Maybe not dogmatic. But you are like a dog shaking a bone. You just don't want to let it go. And @charles1dadis probably the most cordial guy on this site. He makes disagreeing seem like something not so bad after all.
High Sensitivity Speakers without support sub or build in active woofers got low performance to produce low bass but some listeners dont care about low bass' They looking on techical characteritic and stupidly believed , what it say
Yes, this accurately describes my copacetic listening scenario. 8 watt SET mono blocks driving 94 db sensitivity /14-ohm impedance speakers. My typical listening levels sitting 10 feet away are C-weighted 65-75 SPL
Can dip to the mid 50s (softer passages) most ofren peaks (mid 80s).. I can listen at louder levels comfortably, but no need to.
About the same levels for a large portion of my music enjoyment (right now averaging just over 65dB's C-weighted with my evening listen of Keith Jarrett's 'The Carnegie Hall Concert'), except with a range of well-recorded and not too dynamically compressed classical recordings, some electronic genres and watching movies, where higher peaks (via a wider dynamic range) do occur.
At these very satisfying listening levels the SET is far below 1 watt of power (Small fractions of one watt) and doing so at a very low level of distortion (As you note). The sound is very tactile, resolved, pure, natural and quite emotionally engaging. Key take away is the amp and speaker must form a compatible match.
Charles
With 8 watts of SET power given the speaker context, listening levels and distance this combo should be perfectly suitable. Sounds to me like you're hitting the right notes, so to speak, from your descriptions.
@bache With the right speaker enclosure, Tannoy dual concentric 15" speakers and many other efficient speakers extend down to below 30 hz. Not to mention that 90 percent of the music is in the midrange frequency. Who is stupid now? I didn’t want to do this to you but you made me do it. Ignorance can be a blessing. No wonder why Tannoy was the most widely used speaker in studios around the world, including Abbey Road. I guess, they were stupid too.
Yes, sensitive speakers do not play bass below 30-40Hz. But this is a compromise with the texture in the middle bass and lower mids, which is absent in dull speakers with low sensitivity.
@alexberger bass below 30-40 Hz is not issue. High sensitive drivers got low moving mass and resonance up to 60-70Hz , so is basically got low performanse in bass . I build my Ls assosiated with my name with build in active bass, also is very important to mach the phase with middle bass . Theoretically is it possible improve the bass , but cabinet size must be huge
@tannoy56 please cool down , t think you big fan tannoy, This is a very good Co, no question , They make only 93db sensitivity passive LS and make now good line with build in Class D amp . And also , dont biieved for 100 % , what they say, check ability to produce below 30Hz, and let us know , if you listen something
The question: what is high sensitivity? Yes I agree. For real high sensitivity let say 98dB and up it is an issue. For a 15" driver with 94dB sensitivity bass can be good down to 35-40Hz.
My SET amp plays down to 7Hz -3dB. And plays bass much more in real, natural way compared to any other amplifier I had before.
Experience DIYer can built SET amplifier that sounds better than most of amplifiers available on the market. It wouldn't be cheap but such amplifier can't be bought by any money and it will be tweaked and tuned to special speakers and person.
It's way more effective than cable lifters (despite cable lifter works).
Cool down!? You’re the one using derogative names and I’m suppose to cool down. What is wrong with you? Stop deflecting and projecting your arrogant attitude to others and stop waisting my time, please. No mater what I do or say, you’d never believe it, but I bet you’d not have any problem believing in QAnon conspiracies. I know your type of personality very well.
As an owner of Tannoy Berkeley's I would tend to prefer high efficiency speakers.
In fact all of my previous speakers have tended to have been of reasonable high efficiency (>89dB). All except the Quad 57s which I could not get the best out of, but that may have been an impedance issue.
However, there must be a trade off between efficiency and accuracy, or else why would anyone bother with crossovers?
Then there's also the question of damping.
Heavier cone materials tend to be better damped than lighter ones, but it's arguable whether they are more accurate, especially if they are dynamically challenged in comparison.
Newer materials like carbon fibre seem to promise both better efficiency and damping but not everyone is convinced. Then there's stuff like graphene which may yet be better than any we have seen so far, but there's little sign of true graphene coned drivers yet.
As ever, it's a question of trade-offs and preferences.
It’s about the implementation and physics. Sure you can have, say, 97dB sensitivity and honest 20-25Hz extension - that’s from a tapped horn at 20cf. volume with a high-ish fs (35Hz) pro 15," proper motor strength, not too low mms (i.e.: +150 grams) and overall complementary parameters for its specific use. The horn does the heavy lifting and fills out the extension and amplitude gap the driver normally couldn’t handle. Way smart.
I would be cautious pairing high eff. main speakers with low eff. subs - it doesn’t really gel. You want high eff. and extension to boot you go the distance with size to follow and high eff. all the way; it pays off sonically and certainly is realistic - where there is a will to let size (and the required design) have it’s say.
Run it all actively with high-passed mains and treat it as one speaker system pr. channel incl. subs with carefully implemented delay settings and overall filter parameters via a capable DSP - not just with the latter patched on where the (passively configured) mains roll off naturally. Just my $0.02..
After reading (and re-reading) all of "bache" posts, I think I understand what he's saying- "High sensitivity loudspeakers roll off rather high in the bass department".
Forgive me but Isn't this captain obvious? Are there many folks that listen to high sensitivity speakers without a sub or two?
My mains (104db) start to drop like a stone at around 80Hz.
Sure theres still some output at 40Hz. but its very light in the a#$. I use dual subs to fill in those bottom two octaves.It also helps smooth room modes..
So after going through the trouble to blend them into the system, I would never go back to
My friend is a DIY speakers builder. He also fixes drivers.
He had and measured dozens different 15' driver JBL, Tannoy, Altec,... He says the maximal sensitivity of 15' driver in vented box (of any size) at 100Hz is 94-95dB. Some 15' drivers like Altec have higher sensitivity around 200-300Hz but it drops to 95dB at 100Hz. 10'-12' have even smaller sensitivity at 100Hz.
Most driver manufacturers measure sensitivity while mounted in an anechoic chamber running 1000Hz.
That’s why it’s important to look at the entire F.R.
I am thankful for such an explicit section about the speakers. I just have joined the platform and I was looking for something exactly the same. Thank you again. 😊
@tannoy56 you right about Tannoy 15" driver, this driver and also 15" JbL got very good bass response and good sensitivity, Bass is not go down like good sub. but still very good , especially punch bass, i can say this driver is exception from my post ,statement, i saw Scan Speak just came to market with new 15" Excellent driver with resonance 26 hz and 95dB, but still majority high sensivity LS based on 6.5" or 8 " drivers dont say true about low frequency and still need sub support
I use high sensitivity 100db speakers to explore flea watt amplifiers' midrange magic on voices and certain instruments. The amp is a 8wpc 300B.
I'm not fan of low sensitivity speakers.
For economic and the large number of choices (easier to find bargains), I like mainstream sensitivity floorstanders that can be easy driven by 100-300wpc, extended linear neutral across frequency spectrum, well defined extended bass, sparkling highs, satisfying midrange.
I have heard quite a number of big, high efficiency systems running multiple 18" drivers (e.g., Western Electric M10, G.I.P. reproductions of M10, Goodman 18" permanent magnet and fieldcoil woofers) and they deliver the speed, impact, and tonality that I think are most important in such drivers. But, I have never heard these systems deliver really low bass at a high level. I just don't care that much that they don't do subwoofer stuff and I don't really like subwoofers in these sort of high efficiency systems. There are compromises in any kind of system one assembles, and these kinds of woofers deliver what matters to me. Do they measure impressively? I don't know or care. I like Rolls Royce's specification of horsepower in the old days: "Sufficient."
I use most all types of amplifiers inc SET with a 6-watt SET I have horns outputting a solid 30hz and getting room lock. Those dissing SET never used them or they SET their system up to fail.
It's just wrong to think that hi eff doesn't do low bass I have bass horns that can bend doors and make your eyes resonate some I designed are used in military simulators to replicate explosions and gun fire. Just because in your limited experience you haven't heard deep bass in hi eff doesn't mean it's not available. It just means you made major compromises in size.
It’s just wrong to think that hi eff doesn’t do low bass I have bass horns that can bend doors and make your eyes resonate some I designed are used in military simulators to replicate explosions and gun fire. Just because in your limited experience you haven’t heard deep bass in hi eff doesn’t mean it’s not available. It just means you made major compromises in size.
Exactly, John. I expressed a similar view in my latest post on this thread page some two months ago, but it went to deaf ears/blind eyes, it seems.
It must be said though people don’t need +100cf. behemoths to experience high eff. bass to 20Hz. 21"-loaded high order bandpass subs with 100dB sensitivity will do honest 25Hz from a 16-17cf. volume, and my own tapped horns are 20cf. per cab @22Hz. Even so most audiophiles are likely to bark at such sub cab sizes, and so there’s only so much one can do.
But, I have never heard these systems deliver really low bass at a high level. I just don’t care that much that they don’t do subwoofer stuff and I don’t really like subwoofers in these sort of high efficiency systems. [...]
Which kinds of subs have you heard paired with high efficiency mains - low or high eff. subs (i.e.: smaller or very large subs)? I don’t find high eff. mains pair well with low eff. subs, they just don’t mesh properly. If however high eff. can be maintained across the whole range, another matter - given of course mandatory care taken with implementation. I prefer crossing fairly high to the subs, typically no lower than 80Hz, and with the mains high-passed accordingly - fully actively (mains + subs), if possible. That, to me, offers the best opportunity for a coherent, fully integrated presentation.
If on the other you’re perfectly OK sans subs, all is merry, though if you have yet to experience the right high eff. subs in conjunction with your mains I would say you’re potentially missing out on an extraordinary sonic meal. Pardon, I may be presumptuous..
I like Rolls Royce’s specification of horsepower in the old days: "Sufficient."
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