What is the approximate cost of the casework on the big Krells, big Pass Labs and big Gryphon amps? What is the approximate cost of casework on similar big solid state amps?
The Audia The PRE chassis is machined out of aluminum via Numerical Control (NC) units and laser machines. NC micro millers further crafted the front panel out of a 25mm thick aluminum ingot. Chassis-width damping plates are inserted under the top cover, as well as between the two boards. To root out possible interference, the logic control circuitry is encased in metal and positioned behind the front panel.
You simply have to put your hands on a D'Agostino or Rowland piece to understand the level of quality in their casework. Rowland amps even have highly precise machined parts inside that most people never see. That both manufactures have significant cost in the chassis is obvious, but it is interesting to note the the DAG Momentum S250 stereo amp is priced at over twice the retail cost of the Rowland 625 S2. Both are roughly equivalent products. This gives a picture of the arbitrary pricing of high end gear beyond markup of actual cost to produce the piece.
Vertec Tool, Inc. in Colorado Springs, CO makes Dan Dagostino and Jeff Rowland’s enclosures which are both amazing pieces of CNC machine tool work. These enclosures cost serious money to build not only due to the design work / machine time, but because the materials used are also quite pricey!
Sorry we are going completely off topic here with speaker placement but I now completely understand George's point. In my case I have the same side/back wall set up but the bay window is about a meter deep and it feels like the musicians are sitting deep inside the recess, sort of like orchestra seats 5 rows back. I'm sure it would be even closer to live music with nothing in the middle.
Looks like the best of all worlds George. My speakers are 100" out from the rear wall; guess I could build some Perry Mason courtroom-type short walls four feet behind the speakers, open in the middle of course, to improve room loading...
Exactly kalali, the depth perceived is all dependant on how far back the back wall is between the speakers, in my case it’s a good 5mts.
But you still need a short wall with a meter to two space directly behind the speaker for bass loading, as you sort of have with the bay window setup, otherwise you could get bass light depending on the speaker.
"I even took the wall out inbetween the speakers...."
Interesting comment. In one room, I have the speakers placed on the sides of a bay window, well away from the side and back walls. On good recordings, the image depth is as deep as the depth of the bay window and sometimes even more. I always wondered how deep could it go if the space was open to another room.
Well all I can say is Neville Thiele (rip) taught me this, and the result was a no brainer, so much so I even took the wall out inbetween the speakers and left just a short 1.5mt wall behind each speaker for loading purpose, and the depth of image increased even more, to a visual/aural placement of depth imagery up to 5mts back behind the speakers.
georgehifi, You said something that so many others have said, and I must disagree. For many years I have had my equipment rack between my speakers, and imaging etc. has never suffered for it. And yes, I have tried it the other way too with no noticeable difference.
when using DSP room correction there is a compeling argument to have loudspeakers placed close to the rear wall.
Yes this can be done with DSP, and you may well get a flat overhaul correction done. But you can also say goodbye to any depth to the image doing this.
I'm also with dlcockrum and: "but I prefer to keep my audio in the analog domain where possible"
I hope you are doing well my friend. Technology can be a game changer, but I prefer to keep my audio in the analog domain where possible and my speakers well away from the rear wall.
Are you planning to try the DSP/rear wall concept?
Recent inquiry on my part has discovered that when using DSP room correction there is a compeling argument to have loudspeakers placed close to the rear wall.
... You'll never see a MacIntosh owner with all his gear off to the side,
except for the speakers ...
It looks like you haven't been invited into many McIntosh audiophile's homes, or looked at the systems page here or on other forums. (Unless you really are talking about Macintosh, which is the manufacturer of Apple computers.)
that place speakers too close to side and especially rear walls are trashing imaging and depth.
Yes that too, but the worst offender for ruining stereo imagery and depth is the shiny hard equipment rack full of equipment in-between the speakers. First best thing is to get empty space between the speakers and as far back as you can, Neville Thiele (rip) taught me this, a long while back.
Those, rich or poor, that place speakers too close to side and especially rear walls are trashing imaging and depth. Getting the speakers out from the rear wall greatly reduces the impact of rack location IME. Combine the two issues and it's hopeless.
So you would pay Porsche prices for a Porsche built car that looked like a Gremlin?
With sound it depends if you are an "audiophile" with sound as your 1st preference. Or if what you look at is more important. You'll never see a MacIntosh owner with all his gear off to the side, except for the speakers.
I've seen it too many times, many (not all) rich guys ask me what's the best, who just want the best to show off to their rich mates, even though they are all deaf, and can't tell the difference. And then set it up like an 'advert" with all the gear on $$$$$ racking in-between the speakers, trashing the stereo image and depth.
So you would pay Porsche prices for a Porsche built car that looked like a Gremlin?
BTW, Schitt Audio clearly pays attention to how their products look. As does PS Audio, NAD and other "budget" audiophile brands. Their cases are not cheaply made. Making it look good is relatively easy. Getting it to sound good is harder. If you can't do the easy part, how you going to do the hard part?
What are the chances of a manufacturer getting the internal amp design to sound right if they can’t get casework that is functional and looks good?
Why does having the case look good, reflect on how it sounds.
It’s what’s inside that counts. Many times it’s prototypes that sound better than the production versions. This is why Schiit are making a big impact on the hiend, great internals average budget exterior. This way you can have hiend sound without the exorbitant costs of "glitzy" casework that does nothing for the sound.
But then there are "pseudo" audiophiles that buy the most expensive "glitzy’est" looking equipment/racking, just to show it off for it’s looks, but have no idea if it sounds good or not, as they have no ear. These are usually the ones that stack their "glamour" pieces in-between the speakers so they can ogle it and the led lights while listening, but they have no idea that the "stereo image is being greatly compromised" with all that racking and equipment and sometimes a tv as well, in-between the speakers.
I say styling exudes quality...surely it must be wonderful if it looks that way. I strongly suspect lots of people buy the styling even before listening to the black box.
What are the chances of a manufacturer getting the internal amp design to sound right if they can't get casework that is functional and looks good? It would be like a songwriter saying the bridge section doesn't work, but the first and second first are solid.
Speaker Cabinets are the greatest cost to the speaker it self. Dont know much about casing but honestly it depends on the compelxity of the case and the materials used.
What is the approximate cost of the casework on the big Krells, big Pass Labs and big Gryphon amps? What is the approximate cost of casework on similar big solid state amps? mitch4t
With those sort of "glitzy" looking ones, at least half the dollars if not more.
This is why stuff from manufacturers like Schitt products, are doing so well, because inside they have what counts to make good sound, yet the exterior is plain jane cheap looking but does not detract from the sound.
Depends on how many cases you order. Figure a least $1K to $2K a case if not more to have a solid block of aluminum milled out. In my business a plain case with just a few design changes can cost close to $350 to $500 per case for a box 12" by 8 1/2" x 6 1/2" powder coat plain aluminum with a 3/16" tick faceplate including name and rear panel lettering.
It takes quite a lot to design the cnc program, engineering design and then there is the raw material cost and metals are not cheep if your making quality case work. More details there are more attention and time has to be put into the design and program. That's why low cost equipment ilhas usualy low cost case work. That's said pretty design is not always better sound.
Most sexy amps with big ass chassis have the chassis as being the single most major expense, yes. When it comes to single expenses, that is.
It is difficult to do it for less. Since it is almost always cnc milled in modern times, thinking it would be better for the end buyers cost in buying an amplifier.. to have the given amp manufacturer use an asian supplier for the given chassis..well...not so much.
The differences in cost are minimal due to automation in machining hardware... and keeping it close to home overcomes any other potential perceived value. Added to that, the given western supplier generally has a a more time steeped set of lore in the given manufacturing, and so on. Thus the slightly higher price gives a potential for slightly better finishing work and overall precision in presentation.
That is slowly changing, but not quite yet. And if it does, keeping it close to home with shorter lead times and better communications easily outweighs any minor costing advantage.
Like Mike Moffat said about the Schiit gear being made in the USA, about board stuffing costing the same in the US as it does in china, so no advantage on that end of things, by going to china. Same for the chassis, for the most part. When making 20-50-100 units of the given ’custom-intricate’ chassis, staying home with the manufacturing makes obvious sense.
Once I read 30%, which could be true, but it would vary greatly based on how fancy it is. Jeff Rowland may be at the top, and Van Alstine at the bottom.
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