What is the best transport?

06-05-14: Cerrot
Get the best transport you can afford and keep it as far away from your computer as you can. Puter audio is a fad and is a convenient modern day juke box. We all still listen to cds or vinyl for serious listening. And I assure you, JA doesnt listen to his mac mini when he wants to bring tears to his eyes, unless he wants to cry at how much he is missing...
PRAT guys. Puters cant do it as well as a really good transport.
Cerrot (System | Threads | Answers | This Thread)

How's your BlockBuster stock doing?

Get the best transport you can afford and keep it as far away from your computer as you can. Puter audio is a fad and is a convenient modern day juke box. We all still listen to cds or vinyl for serious listening. And I assure you, JA doesnt listen to his mac mini when he wants to bring tears to his eyes, unless he wants to cry at how much he is missing...
PRAT guys. Puters cant do it as well as a really good transport.

Yes, it is USB connection via USB3.0 to PCIx controller running on linear power.

Alex, how do you get data from your server to the dac? Do you use usb?

Hew, I cannot agree more with you about Phil and the AO!

Preliminary results against my DTR-M digital transport show significant improvement of the computer. The difference is now almost negligible, but I feel there is a tad more needed from the computer.

I'd really appreciate your input about any further possible improvements. You are also welcome to email me if you'd like.

Thanks much!
Alex Peychev
APL Hi-Fi

Alex,I am very please that you are enjoying it. Phil has done amazing work with the Optimizer. There may be a few more things you could do as well that brings further improvements. If you are interested let me know.

It actually might not be the best quality source, but it certainly can sound extremely good and the convenience factor is off the charts.

Given that digital is my third string quarterback behind analog tape and vinyl I find myself feeling the same way about computer audio. Having just set up a wired Ethernet network for playback I can say that it bested my previous USB converter setup and comes pretty close to my former reference which was a CEC transport slaved to my Lessloss DAC. The convenience factor is definitely a plus.

I had a chance to meet the Lampizator folks at Newport and I have to,say their transport is enticing, but given how my digital setup,sounds now I may just leave well enough alone.

Thanks to Hew, I have installed Win Server 2012 R2 and also the Audiophile Optimizer.

Just installing the 2012 R2 made a nice difference in sound compared to Win 8, but the result of running the Server 2012 in core mode with the AO is the absolute best possible sound I've ever heard from a computer - "digititis" is gone and I hear pure analog-like music. Simply amazing and highly recommended - a real hope for computer based audio.

Will follow up with shootout results against my DTR-M digital transport and the Kuzma/Dynavector table in a couple of days.

Bottom line, since I have both Apple and the Server 2012 based commuters, you really need the above mentioned setup to really hear what is possible.

Thanks again Hew for the info!

Best wishes,
Alex Peychev
APL Hi-Fi

Suppose you're not trying to get the absolute best quality sound, but only strive for really good sound quality. Let's say you're the equivalent of someone who doesn't adjust VTA/VTF for each record or doesn't label each album for absolute polarity. Clearly that person is not maximizing the fidelity of his system. In that light having a computerized music server is no big deal. It actually might not be the best quality source, but it certainly can sound extremely good and the convenience factor is off the charts.

Hi Hew, thanks for the tip!

Will try this and report back.

BR,
Alex Peychev

When all is said and done audio decisions are (should be) based on actual
listening as opposed to theoretical predictions. So with my ear-brain
processing I simply don't hear the superiority of computers. I understand
other listeners have drawn different conclusions from mine, so it goes with
subjective circumstances. I'm glad we have choices.
Charles,

Alex, if you really want to hear whats possible from your computer upgrade to Windows Server 2012 and implement the Audiophile Optimizer. The Fidelizer just gives you a hint of what's possible.

you missed my point with the analogy.

I understand your point/analogy and it's flawed IMO.

Blanket proclamations aren't persuasive, just another personal opinion.

I guess you missed the part "From my experience ..."?

For the sake of discussion, let's say I agree one cannot rip a bit perfect CD copy (There are protocol, error handling and checksum so it will read and re-read until it succeeds. CS 101).

If can't succeed in a batch ripping process, what are the odds of succeeding in REAL TIME with CD transport and a 5 to 10 seconds window DAC buffer? So with CD transport, it never processes a Xerox copy of the CD? Data just dropped? GIGO?

CD is probably the worst medium to use in Real time compare to other mediums such as HDD, SSD ... Some CD transports realize this problem so it buffers a track before play. Checkout Lamporizator website, Lukas published statistics accessing different mediums and it's very interesting.

Dvavc, I'm not a customer of Audiogoner but base on his post, he knows his stuff. I've yet to hear anything negative regarding his products. Plus if you ever need service, no need to issue an international man hunt to find him. GL!

From my experience, if a computer system is properly configured, it's always superior to a CD transport.

- Asus MoBo with Z77 chipset and a quad core 3-rd gen i5 that has NO built in graphics to contaminate the memory/controller.

- 32GB RAM.

- 3TB mirroring Hitachi HDDs.

- Plextor and Samsung SSDs.

- PCIx to USB3.0 converter using the latest Renesas chip.

- Fanless Asus video card.

- External custom-made, all-linear power supply with 12V, 5V and 3.3V outputs.

- Win 8 (x64) with all available "audio tweaks" + Fidelizer running.

- JRiver MC19, Foobar, JPLAY audio players.

Whoever auditions it says they've never heard a computer sounding so good.

Still my DTR-M digital transport beats it in terms of richer and more analog presentation, totally lacking mechanical sound, and much similar to my reference Kuzma/Dynavector vinyl rig.

This is the case with both PCM (CD) and DSD (SACD) formats.

Hope this helps!

Best wishes,
Alex Peychev
APL Hi-Fi

Joecasey,you missed my point with the analogy. Strong legion of supporters on both sides who won't sway the other. You state a properly configured computer set up always beats a transport.For you perhaps, but not true in others informed opinion/experiences. Blanket proclamations aren't persuasive, just another personal opinion.

Guys, don't get me wrong, i wish my comp to outperform my CD player, which BTW, broke down) that's why i'm looking for a replacement((. Of source comp has a bunch of advantages, main of which is convenience. Of course i would love to have all my music in my comp rather than all over US))), who wouldn't?) Somebody mention here that comp has more sole and emotions. That BTW, might be true. I also kinda noticed something to that effect, but never compared A to B. I think it might be due to the better PRAT, but it just very raw thoughts. However, what bother me that ripped files are slightly (probably like 2% loss) inferior to CD from which they ripped. Slightly muddier, less air between the notes and instruments, voice timbres changed etc. And this is compare to the same CD played from same $10 CDROM, which was used in the process of ripping, not to a good transport!!!. I comparing it for 7 years))) hoping it will get better some day, but it doesn't) (((. I'll be seeing Audiogoner this weekends on The show and will do some riping and comparisons with him on his, as i understand highly tweaked comp, than i'll post if that was my lack of experience as to how properly rip CD, or it is my opponents' hearing problems.) Its getting really interesting.

Computer vs CD transport is no different than the intractable tube vs transistor debate.

IMO, very poor analogy. Tube and SS have distinct sonic characteristics and doesn't require special skills to use either.

When it comes to computer, it helps if one is computer savvy especially DIY. From my experience, if a computer system is properly configured, it's always superior to a CD transport.

After reading Dvavc post, I can understand why he's not satisfied with the results.

Jeff, thanks again. Would it be possible to email me? I'd appreciate it very much!

alex [at] aplhifi [dot] com.

I have found a copy, but would like to ask your opinion about it. Also posted something on your audio system thread, but still waiting "moderator approval".

Best wishes,

Alex

Just check Ebay Alex an the V on the label should be yellow in color. Most records I buy on ebay are good, but once in a while you get one where the record looks perfect, but the grooves are worn by a bad table or arm setup.

Jeff,

I've been lusting over such a copy for quite some time now, but wasn't sure it will sound as good. :-)

Thanks for your input, I appreciate it! Will buy it and let you know.

Best wishes,
Alex Peychev
APL Hi-Fi

Alex I also tried a lot of those Ella cd's including FIM's xrcd and think the SACD is best. None are as good as my original 1955 mono verve record. I think you should look for this as original pressings in good shape in most cases sound better than 33 or 45 reissues. Jeff

Charles,
Even the latest super-quitet switching power supplies lack against a linear one, at least this is my experience. It is probably because a switching power supply cannot provide linear impedance vs. frequency, which results in mechanical sound, especially at the upper mids and highs.

Well, I have mentioned what vinyl rig I use for a reference. Maybe Steve will tell us what is his?

IMO, unless you compare to SOTA analog, there is no point claiming how good digital sounds.

For example, I have every digital copy ever made (CD and SACD) of Ella and Louis first mono recording. While the latest Analogue Productions SACD sounds most natural of all, it is still far away from the vinyl I have made by Speakers Corner Records in Germany. Now I can't wait to receive my Analogue Production 45rpm copy! :-)

Best wishes,
Alex Peychev
APL Hi-Fi

Alex,
You make compelling observations but again, some will counter and say switching power supplies can equal or outperform linear supplies. You mentioned " mechanical" sound and I know exactly what you are referring to. You and Steve (Empirical Audio) are well respected manufacturers who represent very informed but opposing views.I appreciate both of you, personal listening experience sways me toward your perspective.
Charles,

I also agree with Dvavc and Charles1dad. I also did some passionate posts online, similar to what Dvavc wrote.

It takes a great effort to get a good sound from a computer, but that also applies to a dedicated digital transport.

We have built a "super audio computer" that runs on a specially designed linear power supply that is built in another enclosure and there is umbilical cord between the two. This computer produces the best sound I've ever heard from a computer, but still lacks against my digital transport. Why?

The answer is simple; there are still tons of switching power supplies (the so called charge pumps) built into the Mother Board that supply your processor and memory. Disabling those and replacing them with linear power is almost next to impossible, unless we design our own Mother Board. Then we can argue that the computer might be as good as a dedicated digital transport that runs on pure linear power.

Also, l'd like to point out that a digital transport based on the newer digital processing has all those "bit-perfect" and "memory buffering" technologies available, just like any computer. :-)

Bottom line, IMHO, it is impossible to beat a well designed digital transport with a computer.

I record my vinyl in DSD format to SD card using a highly re-designed Tascam DA-3000 recorder. Then I use this for comparison against the vinyl on A-B test. The computer sounds good, but always sort of "glassy" and mechanical compared to the vinyl.

Vinyl rig is Kuzma newest Stabi M table with his 4Piont arm with Dynavector DV-XV1S cartridge that was perfectly aligned and fine-tuned to the arm and table by Kuzma factory. I personally haven't heard a turntable to sound like this. I never thought it is possible. :-)

Best wishes,
Alex Peychev
APL Hi-Fi

Onhwy61,
Agree, passionate doesn't mean right or wrong, just someone expressing a honest heart felt opinion. Thus my earlier tube/transistor analogy. All of this is merely subjective, choose what sounds best to you and be done with it.
Charles,

Here is the other thread Dvavc refers to in his post above. The link opens at his initial post in that thread, which is followed by some interchanges between him and Steve N. of Empirical Audio, and some comments by me.

Regards,
-- Al

Just because someone is passionate doesn't mean they are right. But what do I know, I'm someone who digitizes his vinyl.

The biggest, most pleasurable improvement in my system over the past decade was to replace the Wadia->Benchmark link with Windows 7->USB->Benchmark using flac and JRiver. I play the tracks from memory and bypass the Windows mixer/media player. Maybe the Benchmark just does better with USB, but there is nothing subtle about the changes...separation, clarity, nuance, weight, emotional connection, all snapped to a higher level.

I am with Dvavc and Charles1dad in feeling that a cd transport is better than any computer set-up I have heard. In fact I am more like Dvavc after hearing some all in one servers and computer set-ups in wondering where they are coming from thinking that they sound great.

Dvave,
Very interesting and passionate thoughts! Computer vs CD transport is no different than the intractable tube vs transistor debate. There are simply two distinct camps and both have strong supporters. I can say I've heard some good sounding computer audio systems. A high quality CD spinning front end still reproduces music better sounding in my humble opinion. So I can relate to your stance.
Charles,

I'm really getting sick and tired to read this BS (and not only on this site((() about how the files ripped to computer will beat any CD transport!!! Unbelievable BS and misrepresentation and/or ignorance!!! I click this link hoping to find some meaningful suggestions about really "best transport" hopefully for less than a house this days, but instead reading this B.S. about computers!!!
I can bet each and all of you - comp propagators, that your own $10 CD ROM which you used for ripping said files will beat those files you are so happy about, not even mentioning decent CD transport (like my Teac VRDS 10, they are not even from the same planet!!!!), or moreover $300 Technics TT and decent phonostage. Are you kidding yourself? How far this BS can go really ? Are you people deaf of you so much involved in the industry that can't admit truth any more???
Changeout! Have you transfer your LP's on to the computer yet? I would be very curious to hear how much better they sound now.)))))))))))
Is it convenient? Yes, very much so, but it does not sound as good as CDs, or moreover LPs.
And even convenience is very questionable, considering the tremendous instability of those "home made boutique" soft players which you have to delete and reinstall every other day... I don't know may be its different on PC but on MAC - VLC, doesn't work(with sound, movies OK), just loaded JRIver media center, worked for about one half of a day and crashed on me and not working since (very low level of sound) even though i deleted and reinstall it for 3 times. Even when it did work i was not able to add any files to the library, just whatever it pulled at a time of initial instalment and thats it, (may be its due to Maverick OS). Airport Express Air play is the pain in the S. The time and nerves it takes to make that comp to make any sound at all, which is far... from the best, is unbelievable.
Of course i would agree to take all this hassle if it really sounded at least on par with the CD, but it is NOT!!! As i already explained in the other thread (can't find it to link), you loosing the sound right there when you converting your CDs to WAV/AIFF (the rest of formats don't care even to discuss) on SSD or even worth to HDD. Please, don't give me those meaningless arguments about "bit perfect identical files, etc.!!!" It reminds me of an argument with one guy, who was arguing with me that he knows for sure as a PHD in physics, that all cables would sound the same. Unfortunately files inferior in sound compared to $10 CD ROM!!!
Yes, I still want to make it work some how in order to listen to those files which could be gotten for free from internet, and/or not available on LPs/CDs, etc. But please, don't tell me that com is "the best transport"!!!!

"between the hardware, software, network and everything else, all the variables are mind numbing. you can get good sound pretty easy imo. getting great sound is something else entirely. thinking i'm pretty close now but it sure wasn't easy getting here"

Well said Levy03! I've spent so much time fussing over the options duing the past year that I've fogotten to just enjoy my music collection. I just decided to get a Sooloos MD600/MS600 combination to go with my Simaudio 650D dac, buy copious wine and enjoy the tunes for the next while! Is it the best sounding? Probably not, but it sounds pretty good and the Sooloos interface and set up is a no-brainer...

Computer Audiophile is a tremendous resource for those interested in a DIY server. Small Green Computer can make it for you if you feel your not savvy enough. But honestly, if your semi-computer literate, you can do it.

The Caps design is outstanding! On V3 now with four different entries to suit your needs/tastes.

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/496-computer-audiophile-pocket-server-c-p-s-v3-carbon/

No question computer audio has a complexity level. Having the tenacity to persevere is the biggest challenge for the installer.

My reasons for interest in having a music server for a transport:
1. To preserve my vinyl collection. I plan to rip my LP collection.
2. To play Spotify and Pandora though my system. ( I enjoy the ability to preview the album before the purchase)
3. E-mail, downloading and wireless is replacing the printing press, publishing houses and the world I grew up in.
4.I am joining the this movement only because I have no desire to miss the wave. If I have learned anything in 36 years of association with the engineering business it is : the only technology which is insignificant it is the one which has been left behind.

What we are now using my be obsolete by the time this is posted. Who knows?

I did not light the fire but I might as well warm myself with it.

i own the audionote player you are using as a transport and also own the ps audio perfect wave transport.

the audionote is not a good transport, and i am aware of two transports that i prefer as compared to the ps audio.

i would suggest that you listen to transports. a server is a good idea, but cec use to produce some excellent transports.

Canb: spot on buddy...we're miles away from plug & play. have spent countless hours to get my pc set-up where it is today and even then...i run into the dreaded "glitch" once in a while. three years of tweaking, head scratching, help desk calls ect....have me wondering how close we are to a true high quality "plug & play" pc set-up.

between the hardware, software, network and everything else, all the variables are mind numbing. you can get good sound pretty easy imo. getting great sound is something else entirely. thinking i'm pretty close now but it sure wasn't easy getting here.

don't get me wrong. i'm a pc audio fan boy and love my set-up. just want to help others understand where we are in the game. if you don't have the time, patients and will to get it right....you're in for some disappointment and frustration

cheers

Is computer audio difficult to set up and run?...I don't think so. Can it sound great?...you bet! Can it drive an audiophile crazy with tweaking?...definitely!!

You audition a few transports on your DAC and find the one you like and you're done, except maybe for some digital cable tweaking (congrats on the PWT by the way, many great reviews!).

With computer audio, though, everything seems to impact the sound so the tweaking involves seemingly endless combinations of ripping software (dbpoweramp, EAC, etc.), file formats (wave vs. flac vs. aiff, compressed vs. non-compressed), computer/storage hardware (PC vs. Mac, different hard drives, NAS, etc.), library management software (iTunes, JRiver, Amarra, UPnP options like Asset) playback software (add-ons to iTunes), settings within playback software. You can definitely get a great system going but you've got to have a lot of patience and good support from your local dealer to put the pieces together for a digital front end system that gives you optimal performance. It's a tweaker's paradise or nightmare, depending on your perspective...

Closed systems help make some of these deicisons for you (e.g. Sooloos) to simplify the matter but they can be expensive.

I agree that computer audio (networked or not) will become increasingly popular but it'll be a different world with a more "open source" type of approach that is more akin to the world of computers than traditional audio.

I agree with Levy03 in that the PWT is really an exceptional product that offers very high quality sound.It does`nt surprise me the the PWT competes so well with the much more costly Esoteric.The PWT offers 'very high' value and will be difficult(not impossible) to top.It seems Changeout trusted his ears and was`nt swayed by the price tag psychology.The PWT and Yamamoto DAC combined is just devine and very involving.
Regards,

Changeout: you're gonna have a tuff time finding a better sounding transport at anywhere near the price of the pwt. thought so 3 years ago when i got the thing and still think so today. even though my pc set/up sounds great (pwdII/bridge), i still go back to the pwt for critical listening. it really is a special piece of gear. wish it wasn't!....i'd love to sell it to pursue other shiny toys. could pack away all my disc's for good as well.

you made a good choice imho. enjoy!

The Audio Note has a AES/EBU input. Neal van Berg is providing the digital cable.

How are you gonna interface your server with the DAC ?

Happy New Year to all! The update as to what I have done and am currently doing is as follows:

1.Bought a PS Audio PWT
2.Auditioned an Esoteric P-03 and had a shoot out with the PWT.
3.The Esoteric was returned to the dealer. I could not hear a $15K difference.
4.I am in the waiting period for delivery of a Music Vault server from Sound Science.

A friend of mine bought a Music Vault server and his experience with Neal Van Berg has been exemplary with regard to installation and start up. SQ may/may not meet my expectation. At the least I have gotten off the snide and am inching forward with something different .

The old adage - " suck it and see " is where I have landed.

I would recommend the OPPO with the add-in card to reduce jitter reviewed in TAS in January issue.

Audiopraise Vanity 93 module

http://audiopraise.com/vanity93/overview.php

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

There is an article here that you might want to look at involving a shootout between a transport and a music server. Make of it what you will.

http://www.high-endaudio.com/RC-Digital.html#Comp

" shows what a headache it is to enen get started with all this computer audio business, and that's before something crashes, freezes, has indecipherable instructions if there are any at all, etc."

Firstly, in good server you do not have this
Secondly, select right company to buy this server from: company with established record of excellent customer support.

All The Best

^^^^^^^
Agreed, very good advice!

There is no definitive "best" of anything. There are way too many variables involved. The "best" you can hope for is to find something that works well in your system. You can then say it's the "best" for you until you find something you think is better !!!!

changeout, the other benefit to the dCS transports is they can up sample and you do have dual firewire that outputs pure dsd (but I do think you need a dsd dsc here as it's a proprietary link)

upsampling redbook cd seems a big improvement in my dCS Puccini and U-Clock...but opinions/technology vary here....

I would sell my Teac Esoteric P0vus if you are interested in. It is over 70lbs. massive unit. I can send you more details with photos if you wish,
.

At the highest level there are really just two simple parts to computer-based music. First, ripping, tagging and storing your music files into a central location. Tools like dbpoweramp, mp3tag and exact audio copy make the process fairly straightforward and automated. I actually find the process fun, but it can be time consuming and I can see how some might find it tedious. Difficult, however, I just can't agree with

Second is the transport part. How do you get these files to play on your stereo. The simplest way may be to just connect the computer you store the files on via USB to your dac. If your dac only has s/pdif you can use a USB to spdif bridge. Fire up your software and voila, instant jukebox. the computer is your transport. The other alternative is a networked player, for instance squeezebox touch or transporter or auraliti, Marantz, etc. this route is great also, the player is your transport, but it can be slightly trickier to configure.

I'm just clarifying here, not proselytizing. Do what makes you happy. I just don't buy that it's difficult.

As far as which is better, I guess only your ears will tell but I recommend trying or auditioning both before ruling either out.