What in the world is going on.....
I would be considered crazy by most but I still think it is over the top to pay a high price for a piece of wire. I know that there is a difference but the law of falling returns comes in somewhere. I have a very good system and was a moderator at a good forum and was very good at buying equipment from the ones who had to have the latest thing. I only spent $30000 or so but it still sounded very good even compared to the ones who had spent far more. Cardias gold reference was good enough for me. |
I have heard things on my car radio that sounded great but bad on my system. You just don't expect to hear that much on a lesser source and your ears fill in the rest. A simple system just gives a different experience than a complex one. In Japan they use to gather a group of untrained listeners and had them listen to music with buttons indicating whether they liked the sound or not. In every case they preferred the less accurate sound, this is one reason records sound bad, they are designed to appeal to untrained listeners. I once had a record I really liked; when my system got better I could hear that it was not that good. |
All depends on the recording. They can make good ones if they try. I have the LP of "will the circle be unbroken" and have listen to it since the 70s. Years ago I got the CDs and they were unlistenable. Then they came out with a remasterd version and it was very good. I had the same with a Glen Gould piano recording. It all depends on the care given. I was listening to "jazz at the pawn shop" the music is not great but they set it up in a jazz club and recorded live and it is better than almost any more "advanced" recordings. I remember a recording engneer who wanted to have a simple mike set up but the producer wanted several. He put them up but did not connect them. Afterward the producer said "see, the extra mikes made all the difference". I can remember setting up some speakers that the coustomer insisted HAD to be biamped. So I put 4 in front of the speaker and powered them up but only connected 2 of them. He really liked it but I made the mistake of showing him what I had done. I never saw him again. Don't fool mother nature! |
Frank Zappa pointed out that musicianship isn’t a "pushup contest" and he was right. Also, It's a well documented thing that the brilliant John McLaughlin was astonished and influenced by his friend Jimi Hendrix (as was pretty much anybody else around at the time), jammed with him in NYC, and when Miles asked him about Hendrix he took Miles to see the Monterrey Pop movie in 1969. Miles was also blown away by Hendrix…the rest, as they say, is history. |
Talking about taste in music is interesting. I can appreciate a great performer even if I won't listen to that music. As an example, I don't like opera much, but don't say that Pavarotti or Carreras can't sing, that would be nonsense. Or, you may not like McLaughlin's music but overall he is the most accomplished guitarist this world has ever known. Paco de Lucia, though in much narrower musical space, comes close second. Or, don't say that Miles Davis was technically incredible -he was not- but his music is very special and his influence on so many styles is great. |
Ry Cooder is alright with me. I can appreciate different styles, from acid jazz/rock fusion to classical, the entire range. No country music for me either, that I can understand. But some of even that style can be okay, I just won't listen to it. I strongly dislike Hendrix as well, but his influence was very significant. Not as significant as McLaughlin's, though. |
Taste is a very personal thing, not everyone has to like the same players. I find Van Halen to be a very unmusical player, but that’s just my taste. I prefer lyricism and subtlety in my playing. I part with most people in also not caring for Jimi Hendrix, surely VH’s major influence. Ry Cooder---now THERE’S a guitarist! Another too-infrequently mentioned player is Richard Thompson. When Buddy Rich was going in the hospital as he was dying, the nurse asked him if there was anything he couldn’t take, meaning medicine of course. His reply was "Yeah. Country music". Not thought of as producing great musicians, that is an over-simplification. Ever heard Albert Lee’s playing? |
I listen to music in my car either through a traditional original iPod 160gb or an Astell & Kern AK100. The differences between the sonics is night and day with the A&K obviously winning. There are many files shared between the two but I pretty much reserve the A&K for my jazz collection almost specifically for discovering Bill Frissel's work rather late in life. I have bought everything I could find of his stuff. Amazingly good stuff in every respect. The ipod cost $250, the A&K $900 - in this case a very worthy investment IMHO. Thanks for some of the artists listed here whom I knew little about before - great learning new stuff! |
If anybody can't see the genius in Frissell I assume their taste is somewhat unsophisticated, or you might think jazz is "too many notes" or something, and it doesn't matter anyway as there's plenty of lighter fare to enjoy…Scofield, Ford, et al have certainly advanced beyond their days with Miles, who really was in an experimental era at the end, and much of what he was doing at that point wasn't particularly his best stuff...it was a weird era. A brilliant musician I knew from the Honolulu scene was in one of those bands…Benny Reitveld, who has played bass for 20 years or something with Santana (!). Go figure. These guys have proven themselves far beyond anybody who "doesn't get it," and if one can't appreciate something like Scofield's recent masterpiece "Past Present," with the utterly top of their game musicians Joe Lovano, Larry Grenadier, and Bill Stewart (3 of my absolute favorite players), I understand, but it's still kinda sad. |
Going through Bill's early career in ECM there's no album that's not worth attention. Going further collaborations with NYC underground artists is incredible with John Zorn, Fred Frith, David Torn 90's with Ginger Baker trio/Charlie Haden already should ring some bell indeed. I also enjoy his master classes on sound setups -- he's a living legend of entire jazz history. Identical guitarist is Eivind Aarset from Norway. |
Czarivey, I'll try Bill again, maybe I missed something. I know that John Scoffield is in high esteem as well, he played with late Miles, but...not for me either. I must say that according to what I head, whoever played with either Miles Davis or John McLaughlin played their best. Both men have this unique talent, now that's leadership. |
Here it is. Django - McLaughlin/Beck. First solo by Jeff. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viDVXHyIbCo |
I don't understand what you people find in Beck, Frissell, Clapton and not mentioned Van Halen. Nothing really special to my ear. The best tune that I heard Beck perform was with John McLaughlin, it's called Django and McLaughlin's album is called The Promise. Not a very good album except for this composition and some other that I don't quite remember. By the way, Santana can groove, find his jam-sessions with McLaughlin and Miles Davis on youtube. His albums are very weak including famous Abraxas, some nice melodies though. Also, listen to Reggie Lucas's solo on Pangaea by Miles Davis. Or is it by Pete Cosey, I am not sure? Great anyway. |
Wolf, couldn’t agree more with everything you said above. Sonny Landreth and David Lindley, two unfairly-overlooked guitarists. Bill Frisell’s recent Guitar in the Space Age album is a gas! Clapton’s playing just keeps getting deeper, and Beck is still without peer. I saw him on his first U.S. solo tour in ’68, and he’s even better now. Robben Ford stopped in San Jose on his journey with his brothers (drums and mouth harp) from very Northern California to Los Angeles in the late 60’s, living and playing around town (and the whole Bay Area) for a couple of years, including with Charlie Musselwhite for awhile. Every guitarist I knew went to watch and listen to him play every chance they had, some of them almost quitting playing after hearing him. And that was over 45 years ago! He ended up playing with both George Harrison and Miles Davis; who else can say that?! |
Wolf- I tend to like your taste in guitarists, but the measure for me isn't even chops, it is the ability to convey something that is emotionally affecting- I'm not sure there is a metric for that and it may be personal taste. For example, I went to hear Terry Reid a few years ago, and he used a local band- the guitarist had great countrified electric guitar fills that weren't "rote" and he didn't overplay, but when he came in, he was really tasty. Leslie West never really had "chops" but I always loved his playing on Mountain's "Theme for an Imaginary Western"--not just his tone either. Lindley- yeah, total genius. I've been listening to some Davey Graham, who was a pretty influential guy for that whole crop of UK folk/psych guitarists, including Jansch and Renbourn. |
Czarivey…read my previous post. First line. Less people would have been aware of African music without Simon's use of the African musicians like Ladysmith for clearly what were HIS songs, and remember that he also had the first U.S. commercial reggae hit with Mother and Child Reunion. He's also a great acoustic guitarist who learned a pile of stuff from the English masters like Bert Jansch in his early days. Graceland is considered by many musicians and others to be a masterpiece that's held up over time. |
Graceland, even on chrome cassette (120 us), Dolby B in, that I found a mint-almost-unplayed copy of for $1 last week, sounds amazingly dynamic, warm, vocally musical, danceable & party-able. Good times. And Dave: I agree that Peter early on included African forms in his music from the late 70’s through 80’s, albeit perhaps from a more progressive angle, but in so doing, he promoted awareness of rhythm and modern melodic content, influencing many musiciansingersongwriters, Paul included, to learn, share and collaborate. Remember, there was Joni before Peter (Jungle Line), along with the Chambers Brothers (Time Has Come Today) and Grand Funk (Stop Looking Back). Others may identify additional examples. |
Wolf, Different people have different aging. My colleague is gigging musician in his 64 and his classical guitar skills are limited compared to decade ago. Steve Howe, all of a sudden, when he was 68 couldn't play a single note clean as he used to prior... Inna, In modern school of classical guitar the position of right wrist is free just like in jazz guitar. Check videos of Anna Vidovic or Emanuel Baruecco (who actually trained Anna). Also the clear genius of modern classical guitar is Rolan Dyens. He also keeps his right wrist free. Elevation of neck is to make right wrist perpendicular to the strings as one of the reasons. Hey, anyways, thanks everyone for not comparing above mentioned musicians by wolf_ to Paul Simon after all. |
Older guitarists "tend" to develop wrist arthritis? Some might, but otherwise that is utter bullcrap, and to compare Clapton and Beck to Santana who, although arguably soulful, has never really had the chops of most great guitar players (saw his last show touring with McLaughlin in the 70s and it was sort of embarrassing to hear Carlos noodling along somehow)…Regardless of what people think of Clapton (listen to him playing stuff by his blues heroes and note how he utterly nails it on acoustics or fat Gibsons…amazing), he hasn’t lost anything except the desire to tour, and Jeff Beck is in a class of his own always touring and releasing new stuff, and absolutely blowing minds with his crazy inventive chops every damn night. I’ve been a pro guitar player since 1967…no arthritis and I play every day, and I’ve worked as a live sound tech/mixer for decades and in recent years have seen Larry Carlton play like he was 23, worked with the late John Renbourn who could give a clinic on acoustic technique in his 70s, Sonny Landreth, David Lindley, Robbin Ford (saw him a few months ago…amazing), John Scofield is a personal favorite, Bill Frisell is a genius, Stanley Clarke last year was astonishing…get out and see these guys before judging the geezers because you may find out where the mojo resides. |
Kclone, when I listen to my system which is not very high end, my expectations are quite high. When I listen to youtube or cd on computer drive thru Grado headphones the expectations are low, so whatever sounds okay makes me happy. Any cd I have sounds incomparably better in my system than on computer. Cabling of course is always very important, be it good or bad recording. High end system is more difficult to make sound right than lower end one, that's for sure. |
Yeah, I know his 4th dimention. He still plays great but what he plays these days doesn't resonate with me. You are right about Segovia. Generally, classical guitarists don't position their right hand in a natural way, unlike flamenco and jazz guitarists. They also elevate their left foot, strange as it is. |
Older guitarists tend to develop wrist arthritis and won't able to keep up with complex compositions they used to play. Steve Howe in his early 70's started showing symptoms earlier before when he couldn't play single clean note while John McLaughlin is still lightning fast and very clean. Segovia at his late career was suffering from the way he establish to position the right hand perpendicular to strings very often over-stressing wrist-arm joint. Yea, he couldn't play single note clean as well. Check out John McLaughlin later band 4th-dimension -- pure blast! |
"Well, bad recording will of course sound bad on anything but it will still sound better with better equipment. You are talking nonsense." Inna, I think that depends on the system. Fact is, a lot of poor recordings will sound better on a boom box, headphones, and a car stereo than a high end two channel stereo system. They can sound overly harsh, hard, thin and recessed on a high end system. Sometimes with the right cabling and gear, those recordings can sound better on a high end system. It just depends. |
Sorry, stringreen, but this thread went off track several postings go. I got your point about being disappointed about the sound through your MP3/ Sennheiser setup being superior to your vinyl rig. I wish I had the answer to your dilemma. What disturbed me was the echo of many voices saying, in effect, that Paul Simon's contribution to R&R music over the past 50 years is insignificant, or negligible. Seriously? |
I'm SHOCKED, shocked to learn that not everyone on this forum has the same musical tastes. Even the original poster of this thread admitted that on headphones, Paul Simon's "Stranger to Stranger" sounded "wonderful". Look, you may not like the album, or Paul Simon in general, but to complain about it on this forum seems juvenile. Even the most jaded audiophile must recognize that PS has given us a lot of great music during his career, even if it isn't your style. |
That performance at the DNC was....good gosh. Well intentioned though it was, I was cringing. Phoned in? That would have been a wise decision! But one performance, one rendition doesn't negate a career that has been pretty damn amazing. Recent additions to my system have me flipping vinyl more often than listening digitally. Even my vintage vinyl sounds great. |
Oblgny....that's just the point.....Fremmer gave this record's sound, performance, and content a rave review....Simon is and has been one of my favorites. This recording just doesn't make it on MY system....and wondering why. (as an aside I was REALLY amazed and disappointed at Paul's performance at the Democratic convention....out of tune, garbled words, phoned in....) |
If having a system worth upwards of $75k could make an album sound better I'd be squirreling away money to buy one - but I'll probably be dead before that happens. I play golf, badly, and not often as I'd like to. I could literally spend a couple thousand bucks on better clubs but...I'd still be a pretty below average shagger. Stringreen, I most certainly am not casting aspersions on your system or making light of its cost. Nor am I doubting its value to you. If I had the funds I'd have one, too. Poor recordings/pressings et al have been around for as long as I can remember. I can recall playing records in the '70's that I thought were awful sonically. I've been listening to Simon's latest recently and have found it to be pretty dismissable content-wise, compared to his previous releases at least IMHO, and the sonics are definitely more in-your-face. I have it on LP and an HDtracks flac download. The LP sounds better overall. I listen to my digital through a Sony HAPZ1es. I just find the content of this release missing somewhat, the strength of the tunes? "So Beautiful..." has a great collection of material. I HAVE noticed that transferring files to the HAP is better executed using LAN than wifi. It's faster for one, and secondly it's less prone to bandwidth issues than when I wifi them. (Can "wifi" be a verb, too?) I've noticed that there are burps in many of the tracks that went via wifi. It could be my imagination but I'll swear to it. I use Tidal, iTunes, HDtracks and Amazon to hear stuff now because there are but a handful of stores remaining to do so in person. A couple of hours doing that and you'll hear the differences on all the recordings. It's just there. Happy listening, peeps! |
Clapton, Santana and Beck can be okay though not really impressive, and John McLaughlin is in a league of his own as a guitar player. However, for the last twenty or so years what he has been playing does not impress me at all, unless he plays older compositions. His music appears to have run out. Well, he is 74. |
