What does one purchase after owning horns?

Vicdamone,
There is a bit of an issue where the sub meets the mid horn
on the Uno. To be honest since I have had the Trio I find the UNO & the Duo to be weak in that area. It is only due to the sub cut off being so high. Even so both are difficult to beat.

Personally as you could guess I don't know of a better speaker all round than the trio.

As unexplained earlier I had planars for 20 years & from all the revered manufacturers.

Grannyring makes good points. Many questions asked of the OP have gone unanswered, still, an interesting thread.

"sold them because of the lack of bass to horn integration." How is that a fault of the Uno's? How did you try to integrate bass, sub/s or horn/s, location, type of EQ'ing? This ain't rocket science especially when you found the Uno's so satisfying to begin with.

Agree,

A panel speaker would not be the standard tool for a recording studio, but i have seen them in mastering suites...

Now ... What does one purchase after owning horns?

regards,

Seems we all have opinions/experiences that another seems to disagree with. I find Shadorne's comments to be far off the mark regarding Soundlab speakers at least. Oh well, I guess that is what makes us all individuals.

What is gold to one is tin foil to another based on preferences, hearing ability, past experiences and in some cases ignorance - not having actually experienced a said product.

Most, not all recording studios, would not use a speaker 7-8 feet tall by 3-3.5 feet wide that needs 5 feet or more dead space behind it.

Panel speakers suffer from having a diaphragm that is larger than the wavelengths being reproduced. This results in comb filtering and a highly variable with frequency and an uneven sound field with listener position. This makes them unsuitable for main monitors..... Shadorne

Painting with a broad brush Shadorne, not all panel speakers use one panel and suffers from such.Also the mains are never used for mixing, hence most sound like S*** and are very poor for accuracy, they are there mostly for DB/playback and to assist deaf engineers...

Regards,

Most recording studio's are large and could acommodate any speaker they choose . I've seen some giant speakers in those rooms .-Tmsorosk

Agree ...

I disagree with Shadorne's comment that the 604 is no longer competitive. It all depends on how it is implemented. If done properly in enclosures like the ones Shindo or Serious Stereo have designed these speakers can have a musicality that IMHO equals the best of the newer technology speakers. I have attended RMAF every year listening to many speakers of all types and have found few I would rather have and those would be speakers that are way more expensive. Of course everyone has their own preferences in the type sound they are looking for. I would not knock the technology unless you have heard it done right.

Panel speakers suffer from having a diaphragm that is larger than the wavelengths being reproduced. This results in comb filtering and a highly variable with frequency and an uneven sound field with listener position. This makes them unsuitable for main monitors.

Most recording studio's are large and could acommodate any speaker they choose . I've seen some giant speakers in those rooms .

Well how does Wilson's, MBL, JM labs, Magico , et al , compare to horns , the OP needs to move on ...

regards,

Among the least colored and best integrated horn/high efficiency systems I've heard are the various speakers from Classic Audio that Atmasphere mentioned. These must be in the running. I also endorse the mention, made above, about the top level JBL horn systems.

I like the EdgarHorns as well. These tend to be just a bit less ultra dynamic than some other horn systems, but, the have a fantastically natural and musically satisfying balance. In other words, I like the tradeoffs made by the designer/builder.

ESL's are to large for recording studios as we all know. That is the only reason we don't see them. Soundlab's are simply to big. Come on.....

ESL's are however used to reproduce live sounding instruments in orchestras on a large stage.

Chadeffect ...Good point , I don't recall seeing or hearing about electrostatics in a recording studio . I've heard many and am not a fan .

Shadorne,

surely if that were the case every recording studio would have electrostatic speakers. Advancements have been made in all areas in of hifi since those days. Many studios have compromised monitors for good reason. Anyone remember the NS 10?

Atmasphere , thanks for the response, i will make every attempt to hear such ...

Regards,

Here is a history

Main Monitors

Horn systems have also improved and modern Westlake's with TAD drivers are amazingly good too as are JBL's or Meyers. My comments here are not to bash horns at all! Just mentioning alternatives - that is all. Although I would add that you can do far far better than an Altec 604 these days. Altec 604 is no longer competitive IMHO.

I would add that it is advances in technology that allowed conventional drivers to compete with horns in terms of dynamics: ferrofluid in tweeters, massive voice coils and high powered solid state electronics. In order to compete with horn inherent high SPL and dynamics, the newer systems were often actively powered with outboard individual Crown high power amplifiers dedicated to each driver. Modern active speaker systems have evolved so that the multiple driver dedicated amplifiers are built directly in to the speaker.

" but only horns have the uncompressed sound that many want and are willing to make sacrifices in other areas to get . "

Genelec and ATC replaced horn (Altec604, Westlake, etc) main monitors in high-end recording studios starting in the mid 80's. Main monitors are used to impress the clients (rock stars like Police, INXS, Peter Gabriel,Pink Floyd etc etc. would hear themselves on these designs and modern rock stars still do so today)

So while as a generality it is true that nothing sounds dynamic like horns, you can find dynamic uncompressed sound that is on par with horns in a few select cases. Studio managers did not take a step backward when they replaced older horns - in fact the newer designs performed at similar SPL and dynamics with better integration of bass and without the inherent distortion that you get from horns at elevated levels (non-linear compression drive effects).

I thought this thread was to help Renmeister? Weseixas can start his own thread.

Weseixas, I think that Classic Audio Loudspeakers will be showing at Axpona. Its a new show, at a new location, so unlike THE Show or RMAF, everyone will be at square 1 trying to figure out how to make the rooms work properly. So you will want to keep that in mind regardless of the room you check out.

If he has the T-1 there, the midrange horn runs from 250 Hz to about 10KHz. It has a beryllium diaphragm and so lacks breakups in the audio passband. Plus the magnet is a field coil. Field coils behave much the same way that ESLs do- those are the only technologies wherein the field does not sag when the amplifier makes power to move the diaphragm. So it is very fast and transparent!

Weseaxas ... My response was in regard to friends that seem to love horns . I enjoy the Revels more than any other speaker that I have heard , but only horns have the uncompressed sound that many want and are willing to make sacrifices in other areas to get .
I am looking for a pair of horns for are house at the lake , I felt horns would give us a different prospective on music . Regards Tim

Well, you got your wish, dude. Another thread with "horn" in the title that was going ok. Then you couldn't resist taking a shot. And here we are. Once again. Ending on the same, old, tired theme of yours. -03-30-11: Dan_ed

You must be looking in the mirror and talking to your self again dude!

Check yourself ...... !!!!

I was looking for a speaker that had the uncompressed horn sound and great integrated bass. This combination is very hard to come by. I ended up with a speaker from Serious Stereo which utilizes an Altec 604 driver. This point source speaker has a horn coming out the throat of the 15" driver. The crossover is around 1500hz. This speaker has highs to around 20Khz and lows in the low 20hz range and seems seamless to me. They are 101db efficient with an 8ohm load. The cost on this may be a little more than you are looking at but was the answer for me. A few others make a 604 based speaker such as Shindo but of course theirs is much more expensive.

Well, you got your wish, dude. Another thread with "horn" in the title that was going ok. Then you couldn't resist taking a shot. And here we are. Once again. Ending on the same, old, tired theme of yours.

Once you have enjoyed the uncompressed sound of horns it's difficult to go to anything else-- 03-30-11: Tmsorosk

Tmsorak aren't you enjoying the compressed sound of your Revel's?

---- :)

Well think of it as punishment Dan ...:)

Weseixas, you don't deserve a listen to any horns. ;-)

Once you have enjoyed the uncompressed sound of horns it's difficult to go to anything else , and definitely not panels speakers .

My wish is to hear one of these amazing horn speakers Ralph keep speaking about, any chance in hearing one in Atlanta Ralph? Duke?

Regards,

And we are talking big. Big speakers, big spaces for them and big money.
After reading this including what Atmasphere said, I have the impression that ideally horn speakers can be the best known design approach. And considering that you can drive them with 5 watts or so at building crushing level...

Atmasphere, thank you......And yes, set up, gear and care upstream is vital.........

Just to dispel a couple of common myths, Sound Labs are capable of impressive dynamics, and horns are able to be as uncolored as the best ESLs and magnetic planars in existence.

Much is owed to setup- the gear and care upstream.

Planars and electrostatics are "coherent" in the mid range, which creates magic. They are also great with stage holography, if set up correctly. However, there comes a point with the volume control that they loose this magic by congesting, as most dynamic speakers do (ime). I think it is important to understand what the listener wants and what the habits are. I do not listen at a low level(hence my Agon name) through my main system. My normal levels exceed 100 db. I am not sure how many of you listen at this same level. So, for me, a good quality horn is the way I went. Being a ss guy, I much prefer an amp with 2 output transistors per channel than say 8, 12 or even 20. My speakers allow this. My system is a good compromise(yes I said it). It has the ability to take my recorded music and simulate a performance, based on what "I" want the performance to be. It does have detail, proper harmonic structure and tone, coherence, spatial holography and all of those other "audiophile" things. However, I have said it before. Without being excellent in "PRAT" and dynamic swings, it would not approach that "live" perspective I value so much. It is critical to listen for yourself to determine what it is that you want a system to do for you. Also, tweaking everything is also critical. I think many people on Audiogon, and elsewhere, do not know what they want.The last statement. I am at a point that I do not think of changing a thing in my system, which says it all. I wish everyone happy listening......MrD

What amplification for Sound Labs?
I used the somewhat dry, but very, very quiet and seemingly distortionless Halcro. Then, the DK (later LSA) Integrated amp, which has 150 Watts and doubles into lower impedences.
One of the reasons I bought the DK company back in 2005, was based on its comparative performance with the Halcro...frankly, I was stunned.
The sound in my room (large by my humble standards) 23x26x18 feet, open into a second story loft, and behind me, a vaulted kitchen (two casement doors 6' each)--so lot's of cubic feet, and they filled it up, for MY taste, in terms of volume and musicality.
Just a comment--likeing or even loving one product is not an attack on another. I like some horn speakers, but they, to my ears, have a coloration that I do not prefer.
Dynamic, yes, muscical, somewhat, integrated with bass, somewhat. Generalizations all--yet if Duke is involved (Audiokinesis) they're going to be really, really good.
I respect his opinion and work.

Good listening (don't forget to buy Renee Olstead)

Larry

Soundlab if you have the proper amplification.
What amps are you going to use?

Inna,
the subs on the smaller avantgardes are a compromise to avoid having to
use a huge bass horn to produce low frequencies. If you have the space & cash they have the Bass horn. But this would probably be to big for many users.

Used zu def2. You get the best of both worlds.

I am unfamiliar with horn speakers. Why can't they play bass without the attached sub? Need to be too big to do it?

Br3098

So true! One must listen before buying to make up their own mind.

Hopefully the comments we make help narrow the list to a workable few to sample.

1 question, 34 opinions (including mine, of course). I love this hobby!

As you have owned an AG you will probably be able to dismiss comments about coloration.

The Uno is challenged in the area where the sub meets the mid horn, but the further you go up the AG range the more that is fixed. The subs cut off is much lower.

I have no idea what size room the person who reckons his soundlabs are as dynamic has? Maybe if used as headphones! When compared to an AG horn in the 105- 110 db/watt sensitivity, a planar just cannot do that kind of impact and poise.

Some people have no idea what kind of freedom and dynamic range we are discussing here. It is not until you have lived with a high sensitivity speaker like the AGs, as you have, that you realize how flat and compressed the planars and nearly all other speaker systems are. This not to say speakers like the soundlabs are not dynamic, just not as dynamic.

Go listen, they will sound distant and not as clear as your AG. At worst they will sound congested with limp bass next to an AG. The bass will be deep bass, but without the feeling of weight or 3 dimensional depth. Plus your choice of amp with an AG is a whole other joy as I have found. All those huge amps to drive insensitive speakers impact greatly on the sound too.

My thanks to those of you who have mentioned my speakers, sometimes even in the same breath as SoundLabs. For the record, my bipolar models indeed deliberately seek to emulate some of the radiation pattern characteristics of the pre-PX series SoundLabs (the PX series has a narrower pattern than I can reasonably replicate). As I told Roger West, creator of SoundLabs, my aspiration is to build the second-best speakers... well, within their general price ballpark.

Duke
(disclaimer: SoundLab dealer & speaker manufacturer)

I would second the calls for good, full range electrostatics. I've heard the Soundlabs and the largest new Quads and tought they sounded as "alive" as my horns.

BTW,the newest Avantgardes do a much better job of intregrating bass.

IMHO, anyone who says that the Sound Labs can sound 'flat' have:
1) Never heard them
2) Never heard them set up correctly
3) Simply don't have ears which I would trust for opinions.

The one's I owned, except when compared to the best MBL's set up with mega watts, sounded remarkable...and I rue the day I sold them...ahhhh, divorce.

Good listening.

Larry

Once you get used to the low coloration of planers it will be difficult to enjoy ANY horn speaker.

Regards,

I heard that those who don't want or don't like tubes, and have some money, use big older Rowlands with Soundlabs with great result. Rowland 8T and 9T. I would certainly try this combination if I could.

Goodness my Soundlabs sound anything but flat. I have owned some very dynamic box speakers and one horn speaker and my Soundlabs have more live music impact.

I guess my room and gear makes the difference and perhaps many have never really heard Soundlabs in a properly set up room and system.

I have heard the King Sound and Magie ESL's and understand what you folks mean by flat, but my SL's certainly don't remotely sound that way.

Duke is a great guy and I came very close to buying one of his speakers. I bet they are great based on all the positive remarks. I did talk to him at lenght on the strenghts of his speakers vs Soundlab M1's and decided on the Soundlabs.

Many great choices indeed and it can be fun to listen to several and decide. I suggest listening to some M1's as part of your decision.

Duke of Audiokinesis introduced a new speaker at RMAF called the Strato-Prism. This speaker was easy to drive (16 ohms) and has good efficiency and plays deep bass rather well! (in addition to being very musical, cohesive and revealing) Its not as efficient as the Uno, but 30 watts is plenty of power on it. Plus the price is great- $4800 for the pair if I recall right.

I totally agree with chadeffect. once you get used to the effortless dynamics of a good horn system it will be very difficult to enjoy ANY planar speaker. you have already sold your unos, otherwise I'd have made some suggestions how to overcome the bass integration problem.

I would forget planars. You will never get that freedom you had from a horn like the AG. I like soundlabs. I love and owned many of the planar breed. I have yet to hear a planar that can do what a Trio or even Duo can do. No matter how much power/current you use you always have a flatness dynamically. Everything else is similar but that weight and freedom is just not there with electrostatic or ribbons.

I suspect you will feel robbed if you go the planar route after AG horns.