Unsound, you leave me no choice. If you are still using 3.5s and you feel "they" offer anywhere near the same dynamics as horns (I am extremely familiar with the 3.5s) . I recommend the biggest tweek to you. Qtips........I do hope you "enjoy" your system as much as I enjoy mine.......later Mr D
What does one purchase after owning horns?
I have owned Avantgarde Uno's and sold them because of the lack of bass to horn integration. I loved the dynamics, the midrange and highs. Now faced with a new speaker purchase, I demo speakers and they sound lifeless and contrived. The drama and beauty of live music and even the sound of percussion insturments like a piano are not at all convincing. I have an $8k budget for speakers give or take a thousand. My room is 13'X26' firing down the length. Any good ideas will be appreciated. My music prefrences are jazz/jazz vocalist.
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Inna, I worked with the Jadis importer during the mid 90s and was at the '96 Stereophile show at the NYC Waldorf as the "demo" guy for 3 days. They were very complicated to set up, as the outboard crossover took a while to adjust and tweek. The Jadis reps had so much equipment on hand, and cd was the only source. We were threatened so many times by neighboring exhibitors to "shut us down", because of the volume. This was not all of my fault, as the Eurythme designer went a little crazy as well. The isobaric bass and the rest of the horn was surprisingly coherent, something that surprised me. I did hear them in a properly set up home environment and found them wonderful, much better than at the show. |
Hi Inna, I have tried the Trio with various Audio Note amps. I did like the Audio note on the Trio, but it was a slightly old fashioned sound but very musical, especially with the 300b monos. I just not a 300b lover. I have not tried the Lamm on them as I had some many years ago. Although I did try an amp with the same tube as the Lamm (6c33c). The Trio sounds very different with SS or Tube and seems to be very revealing of tube type. i.e 300b, 45, 2A3, 6c33c, El34 and so on. For me the 45 had a dream combination of transparency and tone. Do you mean the Jadis Eurythme speakers? They are beautiful to look at but I have not heard them. I guess if discussing them there are also the Acapella speakers to. The tweeter is the finest I have heard. Unfortunately impossible to match with other drivers IMHO. I dream of a full range plasma speaker! Damn the laws of physics. |
My gut take is that good horns that are not "shouty" are quite difficult and expensive to design and build. However there are some that do it right and these can be quite exceptional (but still not the ONLY way to excel). Again the sad but true dilemma that the really good horns will be big and expensive and out of reach and or not practical for most. |
This has started to get a little daft. Weseixas, if your comment was aimed at me regarding Bel canto I would be glad to explain. Before the AG Trio I had all sorts of planars. Magnepan 3.6r Apogee Duetta Sigs & Divas, ML CLS, Quad ESL to name a few. At the time I tried the AG Uno too. I realized the Uno had qualities in spades which I had struggled with to get any of my planars to do. To get some life out of these wonderful planar speakers I tried every amp you can throw a stick at. Tubes,SS from 100w to 1,000w. When the BC amps came out with an amp the size of a shoe able to stick 1000w into a 4 ohm speaker that ran cold, I thought I had died & gone to heaven. They did a great job on the Duettas, they were cable of controlling and squeezing that last bit out of a bass ribbons and had the cleanest leading edge I had heard until then. Leaving all my other amps sounding slow,fat and tired. When the Trios arrived I had not decided on an amp for them. I still had a cupboard full of giant powerful amps which I had amassed after years of planars. So I stuck the BCs on the Trio. They were so clean, amazingly quick and detailed. Without some harmonic texture granted, but in theory this was a daft combination, but it sounded very good. Now I have ended up with flea power SETs. A world I could never have entertained before. This is why I bothered writing to help with this question. Our friend is finding it hard to replace his Uno. I know why. The alternatives are difficult. His issue was about bass integration with his Uno. So get a bigger AG where the Bass is cut off lower and is able to be moved anywhere in the room and can use a simple amplifier. Thats all. This thread has got complicated with all sorts of random alternatives. From ATCs, Apogees, Genelec, and Soundlabs. It is simple. The AG is the closest to a live person playing I had heard. Not a distant copy. It is still the same after a longtime owning a pair. I never think about speakers these days. To be honest I have access to most of the other speakers systems mentioned here. I never bring them home and when I have to use them I am reminded how superior the Trio is to them in just about every aspect. I am not saying this because I have one. I have one because I tried the rest. |
I heard These custom GOTO horns last year at capital Audiofest in DC. They were among the best in show and a lot of fun to listen to. The presenters shyed away from playing anything digital though. Their phono rig was much superior to the CD setup. I had to take what I hard with a grain of salt as a result. |
Weseixas, I see you are just a troll trying to pick a fight. I will not waste any more time on you. Have a good day. Unsound, I agree entirely. If horns were so very much better than everything else then why are they marginalized to such a small segment of the market. Horns are mostly used in PA and live sound reinforcement. While in the home, they are rare enough to be considered a novelty. Of course, horns can sound outstanding...but the zealots here insist there is nothing else that can even be considered as an alternative??? |
Yes, Weseixas. If, You and Unsound would just simply "pass" on threads concerning horns instead of trolling for arguments the rest of us could get on with what we like to discuss. We horn lovers get that you guys don't like horns. Myself, I don't give a shit whether or not you two "get it" or not, which is why I don't try to convert anyone. |
I have never heard Trios, but I tend to believe what Chadeffect says having moved from Apogees and high power Class D to Trios and some flea powered tube amp and having discussed the differences and similarities between the two quite extensively on his virtual system page. He was running his Bel Canto ref1000 monoblocs with the Trios for a bit when he first changed from Apogees and reported good results, which surprised but impressed me. An amp that sounds good on both Apogees and high efficiency horns has to have something going for it. Knowing his background and experiences, I seriously doubt Chad would be living even this long with the AGs if they had the stereotypical horn issues. Hey but one person's panacea can easily be another's pox. ya just never know..... |
Unsound, I will gladly help you. I am sure there are some horns that suck or blow as you put it. But there are also great horns. I have yet to hear a speaker better than the AG Trio. Like any speaker there are set up issues(placement/amplification etc), but once dealt with you will be done. If you enjoy your Theils, you will die when you hear an AG Trio set up. |
I've tried to stay out of this, but, the zealots are just begging for a rebuttal. Till I hear other wise, horns blow. It's not a myth, everything that those who don't like horns complain about is true. It doesn't matter how many times the horn fans say otherwise, they can't change the truth. Within typically sized rooms, and with enough power, other designs are capable of the same realistic dynamics. Obviously the OP wants something else, why don't we help him with what he asked for? |
Hello Shadrone , There are 2/3/4 way panel speakers, why would they have a panel 2 large for the wavelength they are reproducing if they are using multiple panels/diaphragms . Also my statement about studio main monitors and not using them for mixing, is really because of there low accuracy regardless of who builds them. You cannot get good or accurate sound quality from soffet mounted speakers, but i will acknowledge there are those who like that sound, again there is no accounting for personal taste in this hobby... Regards, |
I think it comes down to if you like horns, get better ones. There are other ways to push the limits in regards to dynamics and other aspects of good sound, but these will not sound like horns, however perhaps better than good horns even in enough other ways to matter. There is no one speaker I have heard that is teh absolute best in all regards. If there were, I would expect it to be widely known by now and there to be a consensus to that effect. No such luck! Honking/coloration need not be a problem with all horns, but enough of this has occurred in fact over the many years horns have been around to give horns an undeservedly bad name in this regard. I do think only the biggest and likely also most expensive horns, like the larger AGs, are the horns that raise the barrier overall. The size and cost is also prohibitive for many too though unfortunately. That is a sad but true dilemma that even most horn lovers must be willing to face. |
Renmeister, I totally agree with you that the vast majority of speaker systems do not deliver the kind of "drama" of live music the way the Avantgarde, and other horn systems, are capable of doing. I find that most systems sound either dead and constipated, or they attempt to inject some life into the sound with an artificial edginess. I also agree with you that Avantgarde speakers do have some problems with the bass response. The model I am most familiar with, the Duos, tended to overemphasize a certain portion of the bass range ("one-note" effect) and the bass did not integrate that well with the rest of the sound. I personally thought that the positive attributes far outway the bass problems so I like the speaker overall. I don't think it will be easy to find a replacement for the Unos in your specified price range that will also deliver the same kind of lively sound. Also, one would have to consider whether a different amplifier will also be needed if you were using a low-powered amp with the Unos and the alternative were not as efficient. You should audition Audionote speakers. These are fairly high in efficiency, and are quite lively sounding. But, in some respects, they too have a problem with the bass response. The bass can tend a bit toward being loose. Still, on balance, they are quite musical and are relatively free from the nasal coloration that is a problem with horns and other high efficiency designs. If you can deal with lower efficiencies, try looking at speakers from the Triangle. These are quite lively sounding and quite musical. They are a bit bright, but, not in the harsh and unpleasant way many other speakers are also bright. |
Dan ed, well said in 1 paragraph. Strengths and weaknesses equals compromise. It is important to understand what each one of us wants from a system. Equipment reviews and forum opinions/experiences are great, but it takes years, IME, for trial and error to make some determinations of what is right and wrong for each of us. Atmasphere made the point that speaker/room/listener interaction is very important, as well as everything else upstream. So right. This takes time, patience, experience, know how and money in most cases, never achieving the expected results. Other factors such as room build and dimensions, and ac power design/execution play critical roles in all of this. In my many years ( and fortunately early on ), I had the pleasure of being invited to the home of my college music professor. Sitting in this room was a pair of Khorns, driven by a pair of M 9's, 7C , 15 ips master tapes, t.table with Rabco arm, and recordings of every genre. Served wine and cheese, with many hours to listen, I was so captivated, this was that moment for me. Everyone needs to have an experience like this, so they can have "direction". So now I own horns, with ss gear, and spend a good hour or 2 at a time listening when I can. Never thinking about changing a thing, other than what am I in the mood to listen to. Thank you for listening to my story. Mr D. |
Better horns would be the answer for me, but in reality, the answer is "whatever you find you can listen to". I don't mean that to sound like people who like horns can never be happy with another speaker type. However, if you try to compare everything you like about horns to other speakers you will be looking a long time. ALL speakers add their own colors. You have to separate out what the strengths and weaknesses are with each speaker, regardless of topology or configuration, so listen with your own ears and don't get hung up on what biases other folks have. |
Better horns would be the answer for me, but in reality, the answer is "whatever you find you can listen to". I don't mean that to sound like people who like horns can never be happy with another speaker type. However, if you try to compare everything you like about horns to other speakers you will be looking a long time. You have to separate out what the strengths and weaknesses are with each speaker, regardless of topology or configuration, so try to keep an open mind and don't get hung up on what biases other folks have. ALL speakers add their own colors, |
regarding bass integration of the horns with the powered subs I'd like to comment. using duos and later omega duos, highly modded, since many years. the problems some people are hearing are real regarding bass integration. it's a time delay thing. just look at the stereophile review of uno nanos in late 2008, especially the step response. the bass is at least 2 ms behind the mid horn. this is a long time.I'm using digital delay to fix that issue. makes a big improvement to my ears. another issue is the built in amp sits directly behind the drivers, not a good thing. for owners of duos and uno I'd like to suggest to remove the subs from the frame and place them roughly 2 feet in front of the horns. this will not only helps with bass integration in the time domain, it will also greatly benefit the horns because the subs vibration won't reach the horns anymore!! |
Hi Weseixas, if you have heard an AG horn you will find a sound like a electrostatic speaker on steroids. No honking nonsense. Coloration is some myth due to some old rubbish horns made by someone else. Be clear on that. I plugged in my Apogees not long ago. They are one of the finest planars out there, but they sound constricted after a Trio. Before the Trio I felt they were the finest speakers. But dynamic contrast aside, tonally they sound very similar just not as clear. No honking. I could never live with that. Shadore, regarding the ATC and Genelec I too could easily use the word S**t, but I have used 2 stunning ATC systems. Both in very good studios and one custom built for the space. But all the other ATCs I have heard domestically have had very bad sound. As for Genelec speakers I dont know how people use them to mix on. They are devoid of detail, even in places which have the room sorted out. Strikes me they are for people who just want a warm fuzz for sound. I doubt an AG owner would stand 30 secs with one. As I said earlier the answer to the question is a better horn. |
"Painting with a broad brush Shadorne, not all panel speakers use one panel and suffers from such" All panels use diaphragms that are much larger than is desirable for broad even dispersion of their entire frequency range, small panels reduce the issues but none are entirely free of these problems. The big advantage of a well designed three or four way conventional speaker is that each driver can operate in a frequency range where it acts as a point source. Soundlabs are awesome. In fact Gordon J. Holt used large Soundlabs for many years which attests to their sound quality. I just offered some alternatives to horns as the op asked. I am not exactly sure if those who describe ATC and Genelec as S*** have actually heard them but then again there is no accounting for personal taste in this hobby. |
Renmeister, when you owned your Unos did you ever consult with Jim Smith regarding the woofer integration? As the former but longest running importer for Avantgarde in the US, he likely knows more about them and their proper set up for optimal performance than anyone. Most anyone who has considered any model of Avantgarde knows their reputation for importance of set up. I certainly have not heard a large number of horn speaker designs but I will say the AGs I heard set up by Mr, Smith sounded more like live music than about anything I experienced, and without the typical horn colorations. |
I am currently using Beauhorn Virtuosos with Wavelength 300b or 45 amps, and I'm extremely happy with this set-up. Either combination can easily overpower my small apartment. I will be moving within a year to a house. I plan to then utilize my JBL 4550 horns. 300Bs on bottom and 45s on top with an electronic crossover. My additional plan is to be staying with these. |
If I could handle them, very big and expensive horns and a good flea powered amp are the only thing I would consider as an alternative to what I have, larger OHM Walsh speakers running of the most powerful yet compact and efficient Class D amps I could afford. This approach is the total opposite of Avantgarde, but as such it achieves very excellent results using lots of power and muscle. mbl 101s is another radically different approach that might also achieve results that raise the bar. Neither will sound like Avantgarde though. Very different! |
Chadeffect, I would have to disagree, not everyone can deal with the coloration of horns , some can some can't and when driven with the right amplifier Apps don't lack for dynamics IMO. Before the usual culprits tag in, this is Audio , no checkered flag, I'm expressing my opinion of what works for me and why, if you like horns and 120 db fine.. Stereophile: "In selecting a speaker, especially at the highest levels of performance, individual likes and dislikes play important roles. Some people may be bothered by the Uno's residual horn coloration, even though its magnitude is small. " The measurements are well ...!!! http://www.stereophile.com/content/avantgarde-acoustic-uno-series-two-loudspeaker-measurements Typical of what is seen on high eff speakers, very difficult to get high sensitivity and a good balance. the broadband level across the upper mids will push the sound forward and while big on details will have tonal issues and a poor balance as the Bass is sacrificed for the mid details and without hearing this particular model ( i have heard other AG speakers) it would be lean and pinky on pianos with an artificial air on violins, tubby dis-jointed Bass due to the excessive dip in the mid/bass/mid area. Now many claim this type speaker is magic on SET's and this maybe true , SET's lack top end resolution vs SS, and a UNO on SS amps would have you ducking for cover IME. I guess if you like to listening to 105db + in your home then i can see the attraction of Horns and based on Atmasphere's comments about horns and panel speakers having similar openness it is not far fetched to recommend he give a panel speaker a listen. Yep a panel speaker with a sub might be the trick , as far as Apps go, i would recommend the mini-grand for his room. Regards, |
Gotta know the amp unless you are willing to change that as well. I'm wondering why the bass integration was such a problem though? I've heard some indicate Avantgardes need to be set up correctly to get the drivers time aligned and fully coherent. Were you able to do that? You'll likely need other high efficiency speakers to just replace the Avantgarde (not the amp) and get what you are used to. I suspect if the amp sounded good on those that it will also sound good on other high efficiency designs. If you can afford it, speakers using field coil drivers might be able to do some of the same things with a lower power amp. Otherwise, I think you will be challenged to get what the Avantgardes deliver. |
Madhf, Having owned both the apogee diva & duetta sigs, & had them modified with all the latest ribbons & crossovers I can assure you these will not apply. Great as they can be. The Diva being the least dynamic. I think what some people posting here are not realising is that powerful amps cannot substitue for the sensitivity and the way the AG horns couple to the air. I dont want to sound like a broken record or an ass, but most of the suggestions as a replacement mentioned so far will not do what the original posters Unos already did. Fact. The answer to the question is just better horns! |
Responding to vicdamone, I had listened to the Duo and Duo Omega under very good conditions and a short demo of the Uno's in a room I felt was poorly set up. However listening to the Duo and the Duo Omega I was elated with both demo's and purchased the Uno's as a result. I'm well aware of the inner action of room acoustics, room interactions ect., however after talking to folks in the know and to people who own the same model, I came to the conclusion after a year of trial and error, and with the help of ASC and there tube traps that I would have to spend big money to resolve the issue. I must say there is much good about about the Avantgarde Uno. I loved them for what they could do and cursed them for what they could not. |
Second the Apogee's. Either the Diva's or the Duetta Signatures; the Scintilla although a great speaker is realy hard to drive. Also, the Slant 8, an Apogee hybrid, is excellent and can be bought in the $1200-1500 price range. I have 2 pair to go with my Divas. There's an excellent pair for sale on Agon for $1350 from a guy who is well versed in Apogees. |
