What Does It Take To Surpass A SME V?

@lewm - I am just following advice from @jcarr that experimenting with more mass may be useful, and that Lyra carts often sound progressively better up to 16-18 g. 10 pct at the c-w is obviously a rough approximate, very dependent on the pivot to c-w distance, etc. Have you tried this, on a SME V? In my case, tweaks come and go, sometimes they stay - so we'll see.

I currently have an Origin Live Sovereign with dual arm boards.  Mounted I have the OL Conqueror mk4 and the OL Enterprise mk4. Both arms do have enough actual weight that the floating SOTA arm board would require careful balance consideration.  Previously I have owned the OL Encounter mk3c and an OL Illustrious mk3c. The Illustrious  performance could satisfy your pursuit to exceed the SME V in my experience.  

As has been written elsewhere (by me), the effect of CW mass on total effective mass is equal to the mass of the CW multiplied by the (distance from the center of CW mass to the pivot)-squared. So you cannot just say that CW is 10% of total effective mass, unless you’ve done the math.

@neonknight Yesterday I was at a Local HiFi Group Meeting, which took place at a New to the Group Members home.

The Scheu > OL Conqueror IV > Sumiko Pear Wood was brought along for the Analogue Presentation.

The day was filled with first time encounters, the Amp's in use were Monoblock Devialet with B&W 800 D3 Diamond Speakers.

The sound of the Amp' > Speakers is not my usual experience, and the Phonostage was the Amp's Built In device, again another unfamiliar device.

The Schue seated on IsoAcoustics Gaia III Footers, adorned with the Conqueror as a debut Tonearm, presented in a way that was very impressive and showed of the qualities that could be attained from being used with a unfamiliar System.

It would have been great to have heard the upgrade arm to the Illustrious, used in a more familiar set up and listened to the comments offered by those who know the Schue and System in use well. All present apart from the new member are familiar with the Schue in use, and were of the view, during its use in this system there was a very attractive presentation being encountered.

@neonknight 

Mass on counterweight: I used a small disc that was part of a footer (cone + disc) with a center cavity that fits on top of the c-weight screw head. A coin with a hole might work too. So with a little bluetac it is stable. 

Effective mass: not sure! Seems to be a quite complex calculation (google effective mass, here and on  vinylengine). Some argue that  the c-weight mass adds ca 10 percent of the total added effective mass (90 pct at the headshell).

It is a fairly easy to experiment with, with coins of different sizes and bluetac in between. If I understand @JCarr right, the effective mass should be 16-18g (including the 10-11g of the SME V itself). So far I am positive, yesterday I even wondered if my horn speakers now sound a little bit more electrostat-like.

@o_holter  How did you add the mass at the counterweight? What did this give you as an effective mass for the arm when done? 

I am trying the added mass modification suggested by @JCarr for SME V with a Lyra cart, with promising results; sound seems a bit fuller and deeper, with no obvious problems, mistracking etc. Total mass ca 35g (5 on the headshell, 30 on the counterweight). Maybe best with a little bit oil reservoir damping too. Atlas at 1.71g weight.

@neonknight I was informing you that the owner of the Schue TT, feels the TT was worth the additional investment, hence the more expensive Tonearm is being acquired.

As for the design of OL Tonearms above a certain price level, I can only say I have been impressed during the demonstrations and look forward to this next one to take place. 

@pindac I have looked at the Origin Live arms and thought these could be a candidate. I understand SOTA has to fabricate a board specifically for the Enterprise in order to stay in the weight requirements of the suspension on a SOTA turntable. I may yet end up going this route. The only oddity that i dislike is why they feel the need to use a hanging antiskate weight in this day and age? A TOTL tonearm should accomplish this task in a more elegant way. A minor quibble for sure, but at that kind of money it should not present as an afterthought.

@neonknight My friend with the modified Schue TT > OL Illustrious has been very impressed with the set up, and has now come to the conclusion there is more to be discovered.

The Schue will soon be coupled with a OL 'Conqueror Mk IV' > Sumiko Pearwood.

It would seem the arm upgrade will bring something new, the Conqueror is one that has superseded the use of the SME IV and V, this is a demonstration I am looking forward to.

It also puts another level of Tonearm in the lineup for the upcoming Tonearm Comparisons to be carried out.  

It's certainly possible when using a truly balanced (differential) phono stage.

This is true. We ran Kimber cable for years with no problems at all- both on the SME5 and Graham 2.2.

But if you're running balanced, if the cable and preamp are properly set up you'll find that the 'sound' from one cable to the next is very similar. 

Re SME V with Kimber KCAG as phono cable

I have used this cable for a number of years without problems - not much hum. I compared to a Hovland phono cable, no big difference. I liked the airy sonic signature of the KCAG as interconnects, thats why I used an extra pair for phono cable. It was an audio friend of mine who did the actual soldering to the SME DIN plug but I don't think he used any special tricks. Even if my phono stage is mainly balanced, the first gain stage (of three) is single ended, so I use standard RCA inputs, not XLR. Running a separate ground to the arm makes zero difference, no more or less hum! The unshielded KCAG is certainly sensitive to some kinds of noise, e g digital bursts from an alarm system. But it does not pick up a lot of ordinary hum, in my system.  

AVID HIFI - Tonearms

These new products might be worth considering as alternatives to the SME V...

best-groove

How is it possible to use the KCAG which is not shielded ... this lead is good for high signal connections but is not good for plugging into the output of a turntable and even I who own it have found it a source of severe hum; so how is this possible?

It's certainly possible when using a truly balanced (differential) phono stage.

Likewise, the phono cable stays the same, Kimber KCAG soldered to the DIN plug to the arm (a bit tricky). 

What?!!  How is it possible to use the KCAG which is not shielded and have much hum?
Many claims have been read and heard that this lead is good for high signal connections but is not good for plugging into the output of a turntable and even I who own it have found it a source of severe hum; so how is this possible?

miljostyn wrote:

If you are looking for the ultimate pitch stability you need to check out vacuum clamping.

I wonder, how would this help me, unless the LP slides or does not stay stuck to the platter? I use a center clamp and see no friction. Maybe you mean that a vacuum clamp can make the LP flatter, reducing pitch variations due to imperfect pressings?

I bought balanced Wireworld Silver Eclipse 8 interconnects and also grabbed a couple of pairs of Wireworld Micro Eclipse 8 tone arm wiring with XLR terminations with straight and SME style DIN plugs. This way I can also use the SME V or the Dynavector DV505 with this phono stage if I choose so. 

With the Verismo I also found it beneficial to select the medium, +7dB I believe, setting. A little more drive opened the sound up and provided a more dynamic and lively presentation. 

One thing I wonder about is the Neumann RIAA setting. I have read a bit about this, and it seems that some folks think its inaudible,

@neonknight 

The Neumann thing is a misnomer. Neumann never had any such thing in their EQ curve.  see:

https://www.stereophile.com/features/cut_and_thrust_riaa_lp_equalization/index.html

Regarding the interconnect cables, when running balanced, one of the reasons for balanced operation is to minimize cable interaction and artifacts. Unless your cables have high capacitance I would not expect any serious differences in their 'sound' unless they are miswired.

@neonknight : So, during LP playback the 3.18uS in the inverse RIAA eq. curve  in the phono stage " stop " the fall down to infinite of HF that’s how it comes in the LPs.

Other that one of your units comes to my memory that Top of the line Dartzeel phonolinepreamp comes with the 3.18uS too along other units out there.

R.

Is the Verismo a good match for a current injection phono? Ortofon specifically chose a less-ferrous armature for the Verismo (and A95, and Windfeld Ti), which reduces its output for a given coil (0.2mV from 7 ohms - compare to A90 at 0.27mV from 4 ohms). It has a relatively high coil DC resistance for its output. I'm not too educated on the current-injection approach but it seems like it favors a high ratio of output signal to coil resistance, which necessitates highly magnetic armatures. 

Dear @neonknight  : The 3.18uS in the inverse RIAA eq. is way controversial for say the least.

My phonolinepreamp comes with the option to use it or not, your choice.

The key word/question for an audiophile to use it or not is not if it's inaudible or if it's because this depends directly of which high resolution has your system. If your system has the kind levels of true high resolution then you will know for sure.

Now, the cutting head in the recording proccess can't follows over 50khz-60khz because it burns-in but the de-emphasis RIAA curve says to goes to infinite over that HF range mentioned and that's no posible then in the recording proccess exist a " stop " limit in frequency to avoid the cutting head burn-in and the LPs comes withthat " stop limit " when the inverse RIAA eq. in a normal phono stage goes to infinite.

As all in audio always exist treade-offs and after " thousands " of tests with I decided to use that 3.18uS with out no  trade-offs I could detect even today but benefits.

Now, each manufacturer/designer of phono stages design not exactly in the same way and in some the phase anomalies could be listened or not depends how was implemented. In my unit is totally transparent for the better and at the end it's in that way how the LPs comes.

Your choice,

R.

So the cabling showed up for the phono stage. I bought balanced Wireworld Silver Eclipse 8 interconnects and also grabbed a couple of pairs of Wireworld Micro Eclipse 8 tone arm wiring with XLR terminations with straight and SME style DIN plugs. This way I can also use the SME V or the Dynavector DV505 with this phono stage if I choose so. 

With the Verismo I also found it beneficial to select the medium, +7dB I believe, setting. A little more drive opened the sound up and provided a more dynamic and lively presentation. 

One thing I wonder about is the Neumann RIAA setting. I have read a bit about this, and it seems that some folks think its inaudible, while others believe its worth exploring. Yes I can install jumpers and make up my own mind. I am just curious if others have worked with it at all. 

Due to Brexit, the Third Party Service based in Holland, stopped dealing with Items from the UK.

This has been a loss, as the Technician really knows the Ortofon Products from the past 20ish Years as there is design used that the Technician has had a input to.

Being a Ortofon user as a preference, it is a shame to have had lost the support of such a knowledge base.

A Ortofon Cart' that has been under the hand of a Technician and optimised for mechanical function in relation to their intimate knowledge of the Brands Set Up Parameters, can standout as a contender to a upper level model.

I have experienced this, but after regular experiences and periods of usage increasing for the Cart's being compared, there is a time that arrives where the upper model shows it strengths.

The Verismo is one on my Radar, as has been the Proteus.

Your earlier reports has influenced my leaning toward Ortofon and the Verismo, as the Cart' of interest.

The only others on the Radar are the MSL Platinum and the Mutech Hyabusa.

I am assured through another source, maybe the most experienced I know of using modern and vintage Analogue Replay ancillaries, that the Hyabusa is extremely close to the Platinum and the extra cost is not necessary, if being without the MSL  Brand is not of such a concern. 

@pindac 

Thanks for the information. The second MC2000 that I have as already been fitted with a boron cantilever and microridge stylus, its now in its modified form. This has become my daily driver cartridge. Since the OEM cantilever was not savable, this is the best that can be done with it. The second MC2000 I have is getting a replacement diamond installed in the OEM cantilever now. So at this point I have a fully functional and refurbished OEM MC2000 and T2000, and a second MC2000 to be played on a casual basis. I have a MC3000 II and MC5000 for casual listening also. 

My SOTA has a Transfiguration Proteus on it, and the other arm on the Scheu has an Ortofon Verismo on it, and while those are considered to be pretty good cartridges, the MC2000 is really within the same class...provided you can deal with its incredibly low output and high compliance. It certainly is a more difficult cartridge to accommodate. 

@neonknight Through a communication with a Third Party Technician Service with strong ties with Ortofon, it is now a case that since shortly before pre-covid times, Ortofon stopped releasing parts for their products to outside resources.

I missed the boat, as I missed a place on a final order, where I was to have another TOTR Cart' internals purchased and stored for an upcoming rebuild I had in mind. For me after hearing the results from a similar re-build the punt was worth it, but not to be.

Joseph Long 'Needlestein' is a very good option, the Service is not limited to a particular Cantilever/Styli, there are discussion to be had, and a viable design is in many cases available.

Joseph has worked on plenty of Ortofon Cart's from Vintage to Modern, salvaging non-working to fit for purpose, through to TLC on a heavily contaminated specimen.

A friend has told me of a individual based in Washington, who has very recently had a Kontrapunkt C overhauled by 'Needlestein' and are blown away, it was a wild card venture, and the Cart' has now superseded much more expensive modern design models.    

r

Dear @neonnigth : I can read in the forum that you still are alittle distressed by the MC2000 tonearm to match it.

You own the SME V with a good EM ( 10gr. ) for that cartridge and can buy a Reed 3P 9.5" teak arm wand that comes with lower EM ( 8gr. ) than the V and will mate well too.

The VIV for that very high compliance is a mistake as is the 505 that I owned but at the end is your $$$$$ and your sound MUSIC listening targets.

R.

Rock and roll! Let us know how it sounds.

At the end of last week I ordered cabling for the BMC pre-amp. I have a few sets of extra Argentum cabling that are my spares, and it sounds nice on some copper RCA ones, while a silver wire set of XLR cables were more energetic on the top end. My preference will be for XLR so I ordered some Wireworld  Silver Eclipse 8 XLR interconnects. I also ordered some Micro Silver Eclipse 8 tone arm cables with XLR terminations in case I want to run the SME or the Dynavector tonearms to the BMC. Should arrive early next week. 

Jelco manufactured my Sumiko MMT.

Jelco manufactured many of the arms of other very well known and very highly regarded brands.

Jelco started producing arms under their their own name a few years back.

COVID19 knocked them out of business, if you find a Jelco arm it would be worth it.

Mijo, you are entitled to your guess. Your guess may be as good as mine, except I own and have used the BMC, and you own the Seta. The two units may have differences in both input impedance and current gain. Dunno. I’m only extrapolating from my prior experience, as noted. Input Z of the BMC is said to be <3 ohms. Do you have those data for the Seta? The outcome is not solely dependent upon the internal R of the cartridge, given two cartridges of exactly equal V output.

@lewm, My guess is zero dB will be too low. The MC diamond with the Setal L requires the high setting and I have 4 choices. The Signature Platinum uses the lowest setting. I think this has more to do with the cartridges impedance than anything. It will be interesting to see how the Atlas fairs at 1.5 ohms and 0.2 mv. The Diamond is 6 ohms and 0.2 mv, the Signature Platinum 1.5 ohms and 0.5 mv. The Verismo is 7 ohms at 0.2 mv. It will have even less output into a transimpedance stage than the Diamond. 

@neonknight , please let us know what you wind up using for the gain setting. You will get two cartridge mounting plates with the Schroder, Certal an aluminum alloy and Brass. You will need to use the brass one. They do not come with a finger lift. If you would like to have one contact me and I will put one on for you. You can see it on my system page. It is very light. I use aluminum wire and heat shrink wrap. The wrap is to dampen any resonance the wire might have. As far as I can tell it does not affect performance. As for antiskating, If you have a blank record side the tonearm should drift slowly towards the spindle at the beginning of the record and will pick up speed as it travels across. If you start toward the label it will drift towards the label at about twice the speed as at the beginning. I adjust anti skate with a WallySkater at the recommended 11% for a 9" arm and this is what I see on a blank side. I track the MC Diamond at 2.5 gms and the antiskate just makes it with the screw turned fully clockwise. The Verismo has the same tracking force range 2.5 to 2.8 gm. Recommended is 2.6 gm but with the standard screw you can not get the anti skate high enough. Schroder makes a longer screw for higher tracking forces which I mean to order. I have had no problems with miss tracking. The cartridge flies through Soundgarden's Badmotorfinger no problem. 

I also leave my phono stage on all the time. I have no choice as the Seta L does not have a power switch. The battery charger is kicked out when signal is detected leaving only the connection to the batteries. The only items I turn off are the power amps even so my electric bill last month was $1400.00!! 4 months ago it was $400. Wonderful way to get people to switch to electric cars. 

I keep mine powered up at all times, with the MUTE switch engaged when it’s not in use.

Well the phono stage arrived safely today. It certainly is a large and solid piece of gear. Beautiful fit and finish too. It is in the rack and powered up now. Have to wait until the Schroder arm shows up though. Well, actually i did get an Audio Sensibility tone arm cable with XLR ends, I could install it on the SME V and play it that way if I wanted to. But I can be patient till the new arm gets here. 

Your system may differ from that of the BMC seller in terms of downstream gain factors, but  I agree you’ll most likely be ok at the 0db setting, as noted above. If not then it’s easy to switch to the 7db setting.

The owner of the BMC used an Ortofon Anna with this phono stage and has output set at 0 dB, RIAA, and bass functions off. I will be starting at those settings since they worked for him with a similar cartridge. 

Anyways this whole project will take a bit, the arm is shipped and set of arrive maybe even today. The arm board is coming from Canada so that is going to be 7 days or so. The phono stage from Georgia and it ships today, so another 7 days or so. 

Mijostyn, how do you know he’ll need to set the gain to “high”? And what is high on the BMC? 0, 7, and 14db are offered. With my ZYX UNIverse, which puts out 0.24mV and has a 4 ohm internal resistance, the 0db setting is robust. That’s with my linestage adding about 15 db of gain. The Verismo puts out 0.2mV with internal R = 7 ohms, roughly half the current output of the Uni. So, depending upon linestage gain, the input sensitivity of the amplifier, and speaker efficiency, I would guess 0db or +7db would be the sweet spot. Anyway, he can come over to my house in Bethesda to compare notes.

@neonknight , With the Verismo you'll want to set the gain to high. I doubt you'll feel the need for another cartridge for a long while. The jumpers will not pose much of a problem. 

I decided on the BMC MCCI Signature ULN.

The Method experienced and the one that has been investigative and proven to have a very impressive impact is the use of PC Triple C Wire as a Arm Wand Wire and if able to be achieved, exchange the Phon' Internal Signal Path Wire for PC Triple C.

PC Triple C is not found as a Metal in Connectors at present, Designs that use Pure Copper or a OCC  for both Male Female are available.

Limiting the use of the OCC or Pure Copper Connector to the Cable Only is a method to create a partial result, that is able to be further benefitted by adding a partnering design to the chassis. 

In the case of a RCA exchange a Pure Copper Low Mass / Low Eddy Connector will be a good selection.

XLR's from what I have been offered as a description, are a Low Mass/ow Eddy Design, choosing the metal for the connection is the additional consideration.

The impression made from the experience of being demo'd versions of the above has been so, that I am having the above done to the Pre-Amp that is to be Built for me. 

When the HiFi System is back into action, I will be looking to have similar done to the other devices in use, the Power Amp's are already agreed to be converted to the above methodology by the Designer/Builder when the Design is to include the Balanced Circuit in conjunction with the Single Ended.  

From my reading bits written by audio journalists who usually have only a tenuous grasp of the technology, it seems the MCCI and Leno are a bit different from one another in circuitry. As a user of the MCCI, I simplified things by turning off the Neumann compensator and any bass frequency modulation. I also set gain to zero db; only a very few cartridges would require the +7 or 14 db settings. Also keep in mind that Fremer reviewed the original version, not the ULN Signature version, in 2013. I think the jumpers are very easy to understand and deal with in the latest version. But I can’t say which you’d like better between the MCCI ULN Sig and the Lino C.

I put mine on a Sota turntable.  The arm was too heavy and ultimately collapsed the springs of the table....poor move.

@mijostyn  Yes that is the question, are we talking the 2.0 or the 3.3? The 2.0 is going to be roughly the same price as the B.M.C. MCCI Signature ULN that is available to me. 

The topology of the Signature ULN appears to be quite sophisticated. From a users standpoint I am not wild about the internal jumpers, but I can live with it. 

From the site its a bit unclear if there is differences between the two units circuits. Or if its more about user flexibility. 

Can anyone expand? I need to make a deicision today if i am going to grab the B.M.C.

Mike, do you have v2.0 or v3.3 of Lino C?

Dear Pindac, I’m not sure I understand your last post. Are you advocating a change from XLR to RCA, if the latter and its wiring are using your favored OCC? Regardless of phono stage topology (balanced vs SE)?

Thanks.

@neonknight , When I got my Channel D Seta L Plus (a fully balanced unit) I had to change the RCAs to XLRs on my Schroder CB. I did not even have to trim the wires. I just desoldered them from the RCAs and re soldered them to the XLRs. It took maybe 10 minutes. You can order the Schroder with XLRs. 

The BMC is a fine unit but you should also look at the Channel D Lino C which recently got an A+ rating with stereophile. I use an MC Diamond which sounds wonderful into the Channel D. The Verismo is for all intents and purposes the same cartridge. Great choice!  

It is quite something how an individual can assess a situation and then see it is the Antithesis of another's approach. 

I see XLR and thought of a exchange to a OCC Pin/Male Connector immediately.

I see a Phon' as a idea to use with the XLR and thought about acquiring a used Model, followed with exchanging the Chassis Mounted XLR to a OCC Sleeve/Female Connector and using PC Triple C Wire as an exchange material on the Signal Path within the Phon' 'if a wire is in use' for this role.

I know the Verismo will sing like not imagined, I say this with confidence, as I have been Demo'd a Windfeld as a Cart' through a Tonearm > Phone with a above average parts used for the build.

I am a advocate of PC Triple C Wire and have been quite encouraging in the idea of adopting the Wire to be used for a variety of Roles.

At a later date I was introduced to the same set up, with PC Triple C Tonearm Wand Wire, Pure Copper - Low Eddy Connectors on Tonearm Wand Wire and Phon' Chassis, and PC Tripe C used within the Phon' on the Signal Path.

The Windfeld when Demo'd was almost unrecognisable, the betterment of the Cart's performance was quite something to be experienced.

The Designer/Builder of the Tonearm and the Phon' could not explain their surprise, they certainly did not foresee, the end product from their investigative endeavours. 

I have also been Demo'd lesser value Cart's that I am quite familiar with from the Ortofon Design, and this Wire and Connector arrangement has allowed for the Cart's to excel, and again are not recognisable to the Cart's when heard in the system in the earlier guise. To the point that on a occasion the impression made from a Cart' with substantial hours of usage, was able to be kept in use for a very extended period, to the point that there was no time left to use a Cart' I specifically brought along to be used, the impression such a simple set of changes can have is is substantial in relation to a Betterment and a New Indelible Experience has been encountered, that is worthy of a mention.

I will be looking into see the thoughts shared on the Verismo/Proteus, as I am a Ortofon Wed User, who formed a suspicion the Proteus was a worthy Cart' to consider from another Brand.

@lewm I hear what you are saying, I just have an internal quirk about modifying expensive equipment. My own internal firewall, I hate to do it. Yes its just a set of terminations...what can I say?

All I know is this Verismo is one of the finest cartridges I have heard, I like it more than the Transfiguration, I have my doubts my MC2000 will outperform it top to bottom, its going to be similar but I think the Verismo is more liquid.

I am going to want to give it the best supporting cast I can afford. The Schroder is a good fit for my Scheu. I am going to see if that BMC is an option. I have an Esoteric E-03 that supports two of my cartridges, I will probably have to sell my Graham Slee Accession to make things work out for the BMC.

It’s nonsense to think of changing the plugs from XLR to RCA as a “modification “. All you’re doing is grounding one side of the cartridge coils to effect a single-ended output. Pin2 of the XLR goes to the “hot” central pin of the RCA and pin3 goes to ground . You haven’t really altered anything, but you’ve forfeited about 6db of gain compared to a true balanced hookup via XLRs to a balanced phono stage, like that BMC MCCI. So the optimal choice if you want to spend the bucks is indeed to buy a balanced phono stage, be it a current driven type like the MCCI or a voltage driven type. It is important to note that in order to take advantage of the potential gain differential between a true balanced connection and a single ended connection, you must have a true balanced phono section. There are many on the market that offer XLR inputs, but are single ended internally. In that case, you are likely not getting the benefits of balanced Connection.

As an update after resetting the cartridge on the SOTA I have decided to stick with the SME V and Proteus on this table. 

However, I have the Ortofon Verismo I am receiving back from VAS. Actually, that showed up yesterday, and last night I installed it on a Dynavector DV505 on my Scheu table. Absolutely beautiful cartridge, the best I have heard here, and not sure I can really ever do better. This is a keeper. Which led to other decisions. 

Poking around on the used market I found a Schroder CB-1L tone arm that was basically in new condition. Owner had put it ona  refurbished Garrard 401 and found out he was not an idler guy. The new table won't accept the arm so I was able to buy it in as new condition for a very very attractive price. 

After completing the transaction, I realized I overlooked one important thing. The arm has XLR terminations on the tone arm cable. My phono stages are RCA inputs. So I am going to have to deal with that. I have used XLR to RCA adapters in the past and the ones I had were not good. Perhaps the Cardas ones are an option. The other choice I have is a different phono stage, and I am finding that XLR inputs are quite difficult to find. The third option is to have the cables re-terminated, and that is not an appealing one to me, I hate modifying equipment from this original design.  The one I am considering is a B.M.C. MCCI Signature. I don't know if I have ever sat down and got extended listening time with a current injection design. So, it is intriguing. 

So that is the update. 

I only attempt to have input on this forum with a content that may be beneficial to an individual who stumbles on threads are a later time, whilst making a investigation into a Topic of Interest.

I would like to think there are explanations supplied of experiences encountered that by myself that are reasonable. I would like to think the content belonging to suggestions made by myself are reasonable.

I don't do much to steer a person from attaining their own experiences of all areas of HiFi, I regularly suggest the taking up the hot seat as the very best place to make a evaluation, and make it known, this is the method requiring the footwork, as usually the mountain won't be coming.  

As a onlooker and a contributor to a Thread that is running live within the analog forum on the Gon.

It is a task to contribute and not get caught up in the endless rounds of P***ing Matches that quite often show, as the, 'same old-same old' migrates across the relevant threads, fade away as the thread becomes a spent threads and resurface with Gusto at the next available opportunity.

 As said, for me it is the enjoyment of the music 'first',  equipment (tools) to produce the replays of recorded music 'second', and learning about the betterment for the functioning of the Tools 'third'. 

For the bulk of music heard today, Alexia is just fine, music at the command of a voice, in the Company of my Wife, pure Bliss.

Then there are the musical encounters on the Home System of which CD is quite a substantial period of allocated time and the Vinyl LP is maybe just a little more used.

Then there are the Social Gathering put in place solely for likeminded types to spend a period enjoying in a shared Musical Encounter.

Social Gatherings with a agenda to encounter New Experiences, where the Tools to be used to aid the replay of recorded music are to the most present, New Devices made available for Assessment , DAC's, Streamers, CDT's, CDP's, Phonostages, Pre, Power and Integrated Amplification. Turntables, Tonearms, Cart's, Cables and HiFi Phoo.

Most importantly all done with an Open Mind and no prejudice towards any methods under demo'.   

I use what I use, but I experience a whole lot more than I restrict myself to using. 

Belt Drives in General have Two Bearings.

One utilised to Mount and Rotate the Platter, and one to supply a Lateral Force for a Coupling (Belt ) to rotate the Platter at a required Speed.

Two Spindles in use that can’t be set into their housings, that are not making a tight fit, as this will create a friction, which will be a unwanted impediment to the desired function of the Spindles.

Two Spindles with a looseness that can create their own eccentric rotation, when rotating independent from each other.

Idler Drives and Direct Drives have lesser concerns overall, and they have developed their own fanbase for these reasons.

I thought I made it known a Idler Drive is not the only TT with Two Bearing Spindles, of which one is found in a Motor and the Other Attached to a Platter.

I’m surprised that after all those years of studying turntables, you haven’t worked out that idlers have 3 sets of bearings, platter, motor & idler wheel, most of them wonky in vintage TT’s.

By your own standards you should be using a direct drive.

I thought I made it known a Idler Drive is not the only TT with Two Bearing Spindles, of which one is found in a Motor and the Other Attached to a Platter.

I also thought I shared the issues that 'do arise' from the Two Spindles used on a Belt Drive TT and how some, 'not all' measures are put in place to attempt to manage the impact on the system of the Two Spindles working in conjunction with each and coupled by a Belt formed from a variety of material types.

As said, there is a lot of design, that can be put in place for a Belt Drive, as a means to control unwanted conditions inherent to the design in general.

How far these designs are to go will escalate the costs, especially when one is to buy into the philosophies of Certain Brands for the creation of their most engineered designs.

I do not see such extremes needed to control the Idler Drive, and there is plenty of Money available to create a Market Place for a substantially over engineered Idler Mechanism, they do not require the same engineering to optimise them as a Belt Drive has proven to require.

As said, I have today chosen to go for a DD TT, that has been given a specific material for its plinth, when in use, there is as a result of the Drive a cogging issue, that many will say is something that is to be of a concern.

I am yet to experience anything that is noticeable from the drive method, that is a detractor and leaves something extra wanting to be present.

This positive outcome may be due to the work the EE/Engineer who carried out work on the DD TT, producing a a Modified Speed Control Design, and the improvements made to the Platter Bearing.