What do you consider the most musical speakers—$15000 & under

Holt got it right.

Let me add to the debate of musicality Vs accuracy. We may not agree whether the speakers are Musical or not, but we will agree on whether the speakers are Accurate or not - assuming our testing methodology is agreed in advance. This is because musicality is quite subjective while Accuracy is objectively measured.

Hear me out, when I listen to some music, I may find the speakers musical without knowing it's technical parameters. It may very well happen that one may like the Phantom of Opera on  Klipsch or B&W but on a Vandersteen one may find it boring (I do). Mind you, Vandersteen are regarded as one of the most accurate speakers - so when I find something musical, it's  not necessarily about it's technical accuracies but the sound signature that appeals to me. It's also true that in order to provide a better musicality - "Presence" as I like to call it- it's necessary that a speaker should exhibit high technical accuracies. What I mean is that high Accuracy is a Necessary condition for sound to be musical, but it's Not a Sufficient condition for the sound to be musical. So, in essence, Musicality and Accuracy are different. 

Steve, very interesting.  I had this discussion with Richard Vandersteen a few weeks ago.  He uses his normal listening room to audition his gear/speakers.  He wants a real life room since that's what folks use to listen to their systems.  Some rooms sound better than others of course, but I want my system to sound good in my room. I don't care how it sounds in a chamber, lol.  Seems to work as he's sold tons of speakers since 78 or so.

I have heard the same thing from a few other designers over the years.  The irony is that I've heard many products that were voiced in specially designed chambers, not sound that great in a real room.  

Accurate measurement should mean the speaker doesn't add or subtract anything from the signal being fed right? so if you have a room that adds or subtracts different fq's speakers that compensate for it will in fact more accurate right? If it's a known quantity that typical room reflections add 3-5 db at 3-5khz (pulling these figures out of the air for my argument) a designer that accounts for the typical room would be more accurate/musical than the razor flat measuring speaker.

I think you either like horns or you don't.  I loved them as a kid, but most of them I've heard (and even liked) are a bit colored tonally.  I think that's why many of us aren't into them. Fun to listen to?  Can be adn if you like them, that's awesome.  It's why they make so many different speakers.

This will be a unpopular opinion, but for me it's the JBL 4367

I feel musical & accurate are one in the same—if it is dry or analytical it is neither accurate or musical.
But I would like to raise another question sometimes musical could also be unattractive or old fashion.
I think some very musical speakers fall into this category.
We sit in front of our music listening and also looking at our gear.Besides the sound of a speaker there is also the aesthetic of the speaker. If you had a choice between musical & unattractive or handsome and maybe not quite as musical which would you choose?

I have liked some of the Revel's I've heard in the past.  I know they just redid the line if I recall. 

I heard the 2ce-ci? years ago There was a fairly new owner in the shop just looking for others to bask in the joy of listening to them, according to the new satisfied owner the rest of speaker manufacturers were wasting time. they sounded more like speakers than music to me so even vandy's need careful component matching. I lost count of the number of speakers i've owned, forget about the home demos! For me they come in bunches. I get a pair I like and they stay 10-15 years it's the time between that costs so much and the turnover builds up. It seems speakers are a compromise and if done correctly the more  money the less compromise, so personal priority becomes a factor. n the last 5 years i've bought 4 pair of speakers hoping to get the bass, imaging, resolution and dynamics I enjoy so much out of a single box and about the time I start to think the salon2 is incompatible with my room I reposition them sit back and think, maybe i'm good for another 10-15 years.

keithr914 posts11-12-2017 1:05amI'd say brands associated with tone include Sonus Faber, Harbeth, Devore Fidelity, Dynaudio, Tannoy, and Zu Audio.

I sold my Proacs after many years to get Vandersteen's.  Tonality was the number one reason for that.  I'd put them in that group also.  I also feel that Tidal has to be in that same group of speakers.  

Room Size19'x19' with vaulted ceiling to 18'
Gear — Vac PA90 Power Amps, Melos 333 PreAmp modified,
Moon Equinox CD Player Nottingham Spacedck turntable, 

I'd say brands associated with tone include Sonus Faber, Harbeth, Devore Fidelity, Dynaudio, Tannoy, and Zu Audio.

Agreed. That was a sad day when Jim passed. Then the vultures swooped in for the dregs under the guise of a "new company," but they cared not one iota for Jim's designs or his approach.  There must be someone from the original Thiel that knows something about the "secret sauce" and pure science that Thiel put into his love for engineering.

When Jim Thiel passed, the company was never the same.  They aren't making the speakers the way he did. It's just the same name basically.  I know a dealer who owned them, sold them, loved them etc....  He has now dropped the line. YMMV

@zq1

What is the size of your room?

Gear?

@tomcarr, 

Thanks for the input. I think I'll be keeping the 1Cs for now. They're better than some far more expensive speakers I've auditioned lately and seem to be breaking in well.

Wasn't my intent to hijack this thread, back to the main topic.

What do folks think about the musicality of Thiels? That's another brand I've wanted to hear for a long time. 

@helomech,

Owned 1Bs 20 years ago, currently have 2Cs. Your 12x11 BR size won't be a problem if you make it a dedicated listening room and TREAT ALL THE WALLS AND CEILING, and carpet or an area rug if you have hardwood floors. I dislike booming bass too, and will gladly listen to "not enough bass" over "too much bass".  My 2Cs are 9.5" from the front wall, and in my roughly 14x14 room (with alcoves and irregular walls), there are no issues with bass frequencies. Also, the centerline is offset several inches from the middle of the room. Having different distances from side walls helped tame some "one-note bass".

Tom

Agree with ctsooner's last sentence above.  As a long time Vandy owner, I had never considered the virtues of the Model 1 until I heard them properly set up, fed by top notch electronics.  They sounded fantastic!

Helo, yes ignorance is bliss.  But how much fun is that? lol.  I hate booming bass and that's why there are many speakers even in the highest of end that I don't like.  Rear firing woofers are not a problem with proper set up.  You'd have to look at the room and see where you would place them.  Even on the diagonal can work great if you are able to do that.  Honestly, Johnny Rutan who sells them in NJ is a master at set up and is on this forum. If you have concerns, I can ask him if he can come here and post.  Just let me know either way.  Yes, the 1's are a great speaker who are worthy of excellent electronics.  

@ctsooner ,

Sometimes I think ignorance is bliss. I'm quite content with the 1ci in most respects but curiosity will probably get the best of me. I really dislike booming bass, and that's my main concern with rear firing woofers.

helomech212 posts11-06-2017 1:20am^^ Thanks for the input guys. I might have to move my system into a 12×11 bedroom someday, where the 2Cs would be too much. The 1Cs are a bit on the small side for my current man cave, but so are the Spendors. If I didn't keep reading that 2Cs need at least a couple feet from the walls, it'd be an easy choice. Unfortunately, the 2WQ sub won't work with my integrated amp.

Helo, the 2's won't be a problem in that room.  It's all about the fact that they now are so detailed and pretty efficient.  They are one of the more dynamic speakers at lower volume levels.  They will move plenty of air, but that can be controlled as needed.  I personally can't listen to a non full range speaker now that I own one.  That's my view as you dont' want to lose parts of the music that's recorded.  Bass is still the foundation.  I personally don't use much absorption with my rooms, but diffraction.  I put large silk plants behind the speakers in the corner if I I have room and also in-between them, (one on each side of the TV, so I don't get the sound bouncing off the glass screen.  Same thing in the back of the room. I do use quilts on the side walls to absorb the first reflection. YMMV

Vandersteen Quatro CT, Magnepan 20.7, Devore O/96, Tekton

You can find a Geometry Series Wilson-Benesch loudspeaker to satisfy your needs, both regarding price & sound. 
http://wilson-benesch.com/geometry-series.html
Simply exquisite.
Happy Hunting

helomech, I did that very thing; moved from the 1B to the 2CE and it was in a compromised setting where there was an entertainment unit up close between the speakers and they sat about 1 foot from the wall. I put some sound absorption behind them. Great upgrade, never regretted it. Would do it again if in similar conditions. :) 

sorry... I should also add Harbeth and Proac, but usally I prefer real efficient speakers, They make Music!

Tannoy Legacy Arden new... or
Tannoy Canterbury GR second hand... or
Tannoy GRF (lastest version) second hand
or good Maggies

^^ Thanks for the input guys. I might have to move my system into a 12×11 bedroom someday, where the 2Cs would be too much. The 1Cs are a bit on the small side for my current man cave, but so are the Spendors. If I didn't keep reading that 2Cs need at least a couple feet from the walls, it'd be an easy choice. Unfortunately, the 2WQ sub won't work with my integrated amp.

@helomech  Three ways to go IMHE

1.  Stay with the 1Ci and enjoy them.

2.  Keep the 1Ci and add a 2wq sub

3.  Trade int he 1Ci on a NEW production model 2 Sig.  I say new production because Richard is consistently upgrading his designs with driver improvements and crossover enhancements.

Regardless, I don't see how you can lose.  One thing you can take to the bank, the Vandersteen line provides tremendous value for the $ invested.  Except for the original model 3 which had a bright metal dome tweeter which RV quickly rectified in the 3A, Vandersteen has never released an unsatisfying design.  You're in the driver's seat!

I agree that the upgrade to the 2's is a good size one.  Personally, the 2's is where Richards starts his magic in design.  It's the base of the Vandersteen first order crossover and time and phase correctness.  Yes, less smearing makes a huge difference in detail, size of stage and accuracy in general.  Not only that, it physically has larger cones and will move much more air than the 1's.  IF you can afford that upgrade, you will most probably love it.  JMHO.  Are you able to audition anywhere?  Sounds like you may not be able to.  

To me the upper line Vandersteen's best others in their price ranges. That's why I got the Treo and now the Quatro.  They subtly give you more detail than most of the other speakers.  Richard has learned where to make compromises in his products.  The bottom line is that any speaker regardless of cost has to make these decisions.  There are many flavors of speakers and it seems that most folks stay fairly true to their 'flavor'.  That's why if you like a line, you most probably will stay within that line. 

I've noticed that many companies tip up the treble 1-3 db (or more for a few) which gives an impression of larger sound stage and more sparkle to the speaker, but in fact that's not really what's happening.  I PERSONALLY can't handle products like that as I get fatigued quickly.  Unless we are in the production process we dont' know what is laid down on the tracks, so that makes it subjective.  

If you like the Vandersteen sound, then you will love each upgrade in his line.  As poster above said YMMV

helomech, the performance range of audio systems is FAR greater than many realize. Experience in the home is often the only thing that can change that perception. The change which caused your  jaw to fail is a small part of a broad spectrum of performance change possible in the realm of systems.  :) 

I owned the 1B and 2CE in the past, and there is a nice bump in performance in the 2. Don't worry that you wouldn't hear a significant difference. 

The 7's are quite nice, but imo not inherently superior to many other super-speakers. YMMV 

You may wish to hang on to the Spendor speakers for a while, and conduct comparisons as time goes on. That would be informative. 

@hifiman5 ,

I am slack jawed by the Vandy 1cis. I ordered them online, expecting to likely return them because I'm used to $4K Spendors. I'm just amazed at what these Vandys can do for the price, and can't imagine how the 7s must sound.

Now I have the dilemma of deciding whether to step up to 2ce Sig IIs.

15k is the 'sweet spot' IMO

my two favorite........

Revel Studio II

Martin Logan 13a

It's strange to me as RV is all about making a great sounding product that hits above it's price.  He even does that his 
Treo CT on up.  It's pretty amazing as I audition them all the time and I audition others all the time.  I honestly haven't heard anything twice the price that I personally would buy.  They are extended and not bright like so many others.  I would listen to a bunch of the speakers talked about here and see what you love.  They all have a different taste if you would, so it's important to hear them.  I have the Quatro and honestly, I may even get a pair of the Sub 9's.  I just like the ability to tune the bass to the room.  

@helomech I am a long time Vandersteen owner (2C, 3, 3A, 3A Sig.) now Treo CT with two 2wq subs. When I was picking up the Treo’s at John Rutan’s Audio Connection, he played Doug McLeod on Vandy 1C’s. I never would have imagined that RV’s most humble offering could sound like that! Fantastic stuff. If you feed them a clean signal you are in for a real treat.😀

FWIW, my taste runs to the "musical" side of things. My next speakers will be the Devore Gibbon X, which goes for just over $15k. The new Super 9 is less expensive and still great. The Devore room with the new 9 was my favorite room at RMAF 2017 and I hit almost every room (geeked out for 2 days).

As others have mentioned, Harbeth and the Vandy Quatros are also great. Daedalus' new Apollo is also worth a listen for a very musical speaker.

While not generally placed in the "musical" camp, I have owned Aerial Model 9s for over ten years and really love them. Every time I consider new speakers, I can't pull the trigger. What I love about them is that all styles of music sound great and every upgrade in electronics or cabling or power filtering can be clearly heard. For your purposes, you may want to consider the newish 7t which is an upgrade from the 9.

At your price point, I doubt you can go wrong. Have fun.

many choices for the above budget. Several great ones already mentioned. Depending on the gear, room etc one can end up with diffrent set-up, inclduing solid state vs. tubes etc and thenmatching speakers will be diffrent. 
Vinatge Altec speakers like the 19, 604 based or Flamenco/Valencia can be great (the latter with legend, Shindo, Air Tight, Trafomatic, Almarro, etc etc gear) or Devore O/93 or O/96 can work really nicely. 
KEF 107 or ADS 1590, Merlin (now out of business), ProAc, Audio Physic Virgo could be awesome for practically nothing with modern or vintage solid state...and then many modern speakers some folks already mentioned. The Vandy Quattro and Treo (perhaps with Vandy subs) is a great choice to my eras for much less than the above budget. Pretty good customer service too. No affiliation with any of these speakers just some experience with 55 or so pairs and many audio friends with diffrent gear and room.

I recently picked up a pair of humble Vandersteen 1ci and they're far more musical than any Harbeth I've heard.

There is hi-fi and there is my-fi. I tend to believe that people want a system that sounds good to them.
I've been lucky enough to be in the studio with some great musicians and witnessed recordings first hand.
Unless we are in the studio how do we know what is accurate?
And if the system is truly accurate wouldn't some of these recordings sound like they were playing through Yamaha NS10s?
Everything in the studio gets processed. Snare drums have noise gates to prevent bleed over or the snares buzzing.
I can usually tell if the drummer is using a brass or wood snare or of he is using Paiste or Zildjian cymbals.
The guitarist is another problem, he is running through a pedal board, so how does one know if what we are hearing is accurate?
Usually the musicians don't even know what is accurate they just know if the performance sound right and too many takes kills the vibe.
For me,if I can hear those differences then all is good.

@shadorne the difference between a saxophone and a lawnmower? 
Vibrato. 

I just purchased the Vandersteen Quatro CT's (painted) over all the others I auditioned under 30k.  I found them to be the most accurate tonally, had the most detail as they dont' smear and are time and phase accurate.  They are the most musical since they offer the most detail.  The attack and decay are as good as it gets.  I think they are the sweet spot in Vandersteen's line.  The bass EQ let's you put them into the corner of the room up against the wall so the wife loves them too.  With the bass EQ, you can set them up to also max out the soundstage without getting suck out in the middle.  

These are just my suggestions.  The biggest thing you can do it go audition.  All speakers get good reviews, including many best of shows by Vandy's, Magicos, Legacy etc..., but that may not be your best of show.  That's a large chuck of change to spend and maybe a trip to a large city to go listen to a large cross section over a weekend.  Just a thought.

Those would be - Linkwitz Orions or LX521s or Legacy Aeris (if bought in the used market - below $15,000).

I haven't had the chance to listen to as many speakers as most of the posters here, but I'd personally be thrilled with either the ProAc D48R or Harbeth 40.2 and probably base my decision more on what the upstream equipment pairing & room placement options were over anything else.

Also Vandersteen.  

I'm pretty much in agreement with blindjim regarding the importance of amplifiers, etc. but would like to add that a more efficient speaker does allow a lot more flexibility in the budget required for great amplification.  (I have entry level ProAcs & a First Watt amp)

harbeth 7es3 very musical and still accurate imo!  

To answer the OP Charney Audio does a great job with his tractrix designed rear loaded horns. They are both accurate and musical with very low distortion and wide range.  Don't take my word for it listen to them at The Capital Audiofest  next weekend.
http://charneyaudio.com/speakers.html
 

Sound with no adjective to describe it!  Metaphysics.

Hard core hobbyists know that the term "musical" is code for mushy, indistinct and bloated. The term "accurate" is code for brittle, dry and clinical. 

What you really want is a speaker that is neither musical, nor accurate. ;)