"Raw data becomes cooked data once it enters your head, or at least it's refried."
Well, its probably to safe to say that biases exist to some degree in all cases with everyone.
COuld be too much salt, not enough garlic, a-typical hearing, listening to the same thing/stuff all the time, whatever.
Its all a very sophisticated yet imperfect process, for sure.
I tried a new $200 power cord on my DAC recently. I am pretty sure I hear a diffference, but it is quite subtle and hard to be 100% sure of, but I feel it was a good investment for teh $50 it ended up costing me.
Would I hear a fuse orientation change? Maybe first time at best (some of my fuses have never been touched since, well, forever), but I am skeptical about that even, and would be even more uncertain from there I suspect, therefore I will save myself the pain and uncertainty and just enjoy the good music until it stops being that and I have to figure out whats wrong now once again. |
Mapman wrote,
"Would I hear a fuse orientation change? Maybe first time at best (some of my fuses have never been touched since, well, forever), but I am skeptical about that even, and would be even more uncertain from there I suspect, therefore I will save myself the pain and uncertainty and just enjoy the good music until it stops being that and I have to figure out whats wrong now once again."
The Age of Uncertainty. And Pain. :-) |
I find it absolutely makes a difference which direction a penny is inserted behind the 20 amp fuse in my fuse box. And wheats have a fuller, more rounded quality just like live - probably something to do with grain structure. Going to try a cryod dime next to see if silver really does sound more airy. |
Mapman & Onhwy61, thanks very much for your kind comments. Let me say also that I always enjoy reading your invariably intelligent and level-headed posts.
Best regards,
-- Al |
So so I'm still waiting for someone to expand the scientific and engineering knowledge base and offer up any advise or theory to help answer the original OPs question.
If the answer is that there is no answer other than trial and error, I'm fine with that. Maybe the mysteries of HiFI tuning fuses will be answered by science someday.
Or even better, if the vendor could provide the answer, that would make it pretty easy for anyone concerned to validate it or not.
Alternatively, there is a lot to be said for the old motto "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". There is always something out there worthy of one's attention at any given time. Fuse direction probably ranks pretty low on teh grand scale of things I would wager, even when one is easily affected by "audiophilia". |
Mapman, if I can be so bold can I suggest you do your due diligence? While we've undoubtedly covered this before somewhere ( I can see you wracking your brain) I suspect you might get some of the answers you seek by going to the HiFi Tuning web site and taking a gander at the technical data sheets that show, among other things, differences in resistance according to direction of fuse, differences in resistance according to fuse conductor and end cap metal type, differences in resistance according to cryo and non-cryo treatment. Things of that nature.
When someone says a thing is almost impossible what that actually means is that it is possible. - Old audiophile saying |
And what if the expanded scientific and engineering knowledge base maintains that there is no directional difference? At what point, if at all, would you (we) accept that any perceived differences are imaginary?
Hardline subjectivists seem to maintain that if there is no scientific explanation for perceived phenomena, it just hasn't been found yet. It's intellectually sloppy to not balance that perspective with the possibility that the perceived phenomenon may be bogus, don't you think? |
Item number 2 in my Get Rich Quick scheme: A unidirectional fuse! That's right...along with my previously mentioned "Deconfuser" testing apparatus, I plan to market a fuse to the confused that can be used in either direction with less chance for fuse abusing. I'll put little arrows on 'em going in BOTH directions declaring once and for all that bi-directional fuse useage can unconfuse users, leading to peace and harmony for all. |
Drubin, balance, as usual, is where the truth lies. What you say is true, but
it would also be intellectually sloppy to not balance one's perspective with
the probability that the scientific explanation has, indeed, not been found
yet. When one considers how much we are still learning about our
universe, that perspective is not unrealistic at all.
Now, why exactly, is it so important for the skeptics to want to "set the
record straight"? Why does it matter so much that some are
convinced that the perceived reasons are real? Many seem to take on the
role of "protectors of the naive". Please! Here's what I do know;
and without a doubt:
- None of this is essential for the enjoyment of music. That fact is the great
"balancer". It's great fun (for some) and can certainly add to the
enjoyment. It can also take away, if one is not careful; but, the true music
lover doesn't have to worry about that. If one can let obsession over tweaks
distract from enjoyment of the music, then I would question just how
important the music is to the listener.
- I don't have experience with "high-end" fuses, but being both a
musician and audiophile I can say that the parallels between the tweaking
that musicians and audiophiles do are many. The differences in sound that
many musicians concern themselves which are a result of tweaks to their
instrument are usually much more subtle than those that audiophiles
experience via tweaks; and, these differences are very real. Sound, being
both the exciter and the victim of resonances is affected by just about ANY
change that one makes to that which is creating the sound. How this
happens in the electrical domain I will leave to the more technically astute,
but it does not seem much of a stretch to me to assume that the
phenomenon is real. You think that it's weird that fuse direction might affect
perceived sound? What if I pointed out (as but one example) that some
very fine and successful saxophone players feel that wether the little screw
that secures the saxophone's neck in place is gold plated or is silver plated
makes an appreciable difference in the response and sound of the
instrument? To the player, anyway.
- The problem is when a musician who needs much more attention paid to
his intonation or other rudiment obsesses over the tiny changes to his
sound by having the little screw gold plated. I think the parallel to
audiophiles is obvious.
- Not everyone has the same hearing acuity or interest in hearing small
differences in sound like the ones being discussed.
|
05-02-14: Frogman
Now, why exactly, is it so important for the skeptics to want to "set the record straight"? Why does it matter so much that some are convinced that the perceived reasons are real? Many seem to take on the role of "protectors of the naive". Please!
Frogman, my answer to essentially that question was provided in the first of my posts dated 4-30-14 in this thread, when I stated that: ... as I see it some people (including me) care because the basic reason most of us are here is the hope that sharing of knowledge and experience will be mutually beneficial in making our audio-related investments of time and money as productive as possible. As Mapman put it, prioritizing focus, based on the likelihood and degree of added value. Toward that end, it would seem logical to try to assure that reported effects, especially those that defy technical understanding, are not the result of inadequately disciplined methodology, attribution to the wrong variable, technical misconception, or factors that may not be applicable to many or most other systems. If that is tantamount to trying to be a "protector of the naive," I suppose I would have to plead guilty as charged. Best regards, -- Al |
Almarg, I agree with your premise, and perhaps I did not make my point sufficiently clear. I care very much, and as much as anyone, about learning the reasons why and eliminating, as much as possible, erroneous conclusions for the reasons why. My concern is that in my experience some will never be satisfied; even in the face of plausible explanations. This has been shown in other debates about the sound of everything from cables to amplifiers. Some simply can't hear the effect or won't hear it because they are so predisposed to not hearing it. So, why the apparent antagonism directed at those who do or claim they do? I suppose that when one comes from a place where, from experience, anything one does has an effect to some degree (however small), there is a built-in tolerance for believing and intolerance for skepticism. When one spends, literally, hours every day in the process of making sounds and studying what it takes to do that, one gains a certain respect for the complexity and fragility of musical sound that, I suppose, makes it much easier to accept the seemingly implausible. |
A skeptic is a person who is, above all, curious and goes to great length to establish the veracity or falsehood of claims, some more preposterous than others. So skepticism is a good thing, no? On the other hand, what do we call a person who will neither listen to reason nor provide any evidence contradicting the claim that fuses are directional. What's missing is the curiosity and the investigation, both major parts of the scientific method. The word that comes to my mind is pseudo-skeptic. |
*****"protector of the naive,"*****
Saint AL?? :)
My 2 cents:
The Naive, should not be protected, they should be informed.
As long as electronic theory, is discussed in terms of audio equipment, "I can hear a difference" will prevail.
Cheers |
Rok, I continue to marvel at how you and I can, in fact, agree :-)
**** The Naive, should not be protected, they should be informed.****
I tend to agree, but informed about all perspectives, not just the one that happens to coincide with our own.
****As long as electronic theory, is discussed in terms of audio equipment, "I can hear a difference" will prevail.****
Absolutely true, and that is because many (not all) of the effects that are discussed are very real and are there to be heard.
BTW, the proposal I made to you at least a year or so ago stands. If you are ever in the NYC area, and want to play :-), come over to my place and bring your favorite cable. Wait, you don't have a favorite; bring any cable. Give me one LP side with it in my system. You will then have the opportunity to swap out (or not) your IC for mine and play ten musical selections from a few LP's of mine that we agree upon. If I can't identify which IC is in the system at least nine out of ten times, I will give you my original Columbia 6 eye "Kind Of Blue" and another of your choice. However, if I am able to, you will be required to listen to Berg's "Lulu" in its entirety; while I listen to Mingus on my son's system. |
Almarg, it is mainly this statement to which I would take great exception, "especially those that defy technical understanding." I'm sure Einstein's theory face many who saw what he said as defying technical understanding. Were there any possibility of funding support or peer reviewed publication possible some physists would venture to research this question.
With your attitude, sir, you never will. |
The Frogman:
I would take you up on your challenge, but the price of you winning, is tooooo high. LULU in it's entirety, I'd rather be forced to hear Anthony Braxton, on endless repeat!
I think a lot of things in audio are subject to what I call a "psychological" version of the Heisenberg Principle.
If you know, or think something is different, or has been changed, you will 'hear' different results. If you don't know or think, you won't.
Most of this, "I can hear a difference" stuff, can be resolved in 10 minutes.
Cheers |
We should probably all stop trying to help sort though facts
versus non facts when it comes to high end audio. So much
credibility in this area has already been lost, probably a
sinking ship.
After all, if we all just stick to facts and what is known,
others may know this as well, making audiophiles less
special and more like everyone else out there who also
happens to have an ear for music.
Damned if we do, damned if we don't it seems.
Facts and what is known is relatively boring actually.
Mythology helps keeps peoples interest I suppose, and more
importantly, helps separate them from their cash. |
Just so happens that yesterday I had an appointment with an ENT Doctor. His exam included a hearing test. I highly recommend this to all Audiophiles.
It's what's called an eye-opening experience.
Yorx anyone?
Cheers |
Well, that explains a lot :-) |
****Well, that explains a lot :-)****
Au Contraire, the results were very good. No sign of age related hearing loss. A slight dip at 3k and 4k.
Now, if I could just hear those darn fuses!!
Cheers |
I was referring to the Yorx comment. The right fuse could make that Yorx of yours sound like a Krell; but make sure you try it both ways.
Cheers. |
I always hire a dowser for it. When he got the result I place my amp exactly South-North and the fuse that way, too. And because I don't trust him, I will install the fuse North-South. Sounds better, btw. |
The Frogman:
My bad.
Actually I upgraded from Krell to Yorx. Do you know how many High-end companies have come and gone since Yorx started production. The things are bullet proof!!
I asked my dealer about service, and he said, if something fails, the sound stays the same, so don't worry about it! That's what I call a Stereo! I'll be jamming during Nuclear Winter.
Us Yorxies' motto is "We don't need no stinkin' Pass labs"
Cheers |
There is no direction of "AC flow". AC is Alternating Current. There is no net electron flow. All the cable makers, accessory makers, fuse makers, etc., who talk about direction of flow are showing their misunderstanding of the basics of electrical theory. |
Kiddman, they're not talking about the direction of AC flow. Hel-loo! Well get to the bottom of all this one day. Lol |
*****All the cable makers, accessory makers, fuse makers, etc., who talk about direction of flow are showing their misunderstanding of the basics of electrical theory.*****
I would say that they are showing their conptempt for high-end audiophiles. They are also students of human behavior / phychology and, of course, P.T. Barnum.
They,the makers, know the truth of the matter. Any high school physics student knows the truth of the matter.
In most hobbys, the members would immediately sound the alarm, when any bogus product reared it's head. In Audio, mums the word. I guess they would rather be fleeced than admit to being just mere humans, with all the sensory limitations that come with that.
Cheers |
I can't believe people are still dancing on this pin head. With all the angels, lawyers and economist already there, I thought there wasn't enough room for audiophiles.
All the best,
Nonoise |
Rok2id, I don't think you mean, "misunderstanding of the basics of electrical theory.* I think you mean the basic understanding that allows designers to do working circuits.
I know there is a good deal of trial and error in design and that even the position of wiring makes a difference.
What I don't really understand is why the hell you care whether some of us hear clear differences and you don't. It makes no difference to me that you hear nothing. |
*****What I don't really understand is why the hell you care whether some of us hear clear differences and you don't.***
I can clean that up now. I don't care. I was responding to the post by Kiddman.
I do KNOW THIS:
you can't walk on water
you can't turn lead into gold
you can't flap your arms and fly
you can't levitate
you can't hear any difference based on the position of a fuse
All are equally certain and equally obvious. Saying it, don't make it so. This is not about you, or me, or audio, or systems. It's about the hearing ability of humans.
To answer your question, I don't care. As a member once so succinctly said to me, "it ain't your money". Truer words have never been spoken.
Cheers |
A good man is aware of his own limitations, but doesn't assign them to everyone else(ie: aural acuity). |
Rok2id, I know you can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make him drink. |
*****what do we call a person who will neither listen to reason nor provide any evidence contradicting the claim that fuses are directional.******
Not taking a person at their word when they say, "I can hear a difference" is your idea of not listening to 'reason'??
We can get to the bottom this, THIS DAY. Only take an hour or so.
My evidence is a matter of public record. NO one! NO ONE!! has ever been able to hear amps. They include many electrical devices. So why would anyone, capable of logical thought, think a person could hear a fuse?
Unless of course, a person did not know what a fuse is.
Cheers |
Rok2id, either a fuse's direction makes a difference or not. What evidence do you present that it doesn't? Is saying that electrical engineering says it cannot top people who say they can hear one? You may think so, but I don't. You may act as though you are right and you may not care what I think. I will act exactly the same way.
Is there any reason to continue? |
I cannot prove a negative. I cannot prove someone cannot hear fuses. You can prove someone can. The onus is on the ones that say they can hear.
Thanks for a very civil discussion.
Cheers |
Geoff, since there is no net flow, no "direction" of electron travel, then it follows there is no difference in the orientation of a fuse. Have someone change it, or not change it, and you have to identify it. You will see you fail as often as you get it right if the sample size is reasonable.
I suppose we'll be told that by virtue of being paid attention to the voodoo and magic won't work.
|
Rok2id, actually it is just the opposite. In science you seek to reject the 'null' hypothesis, which in this case is that direction makes no difference in terms of another variable. Our only problem is that we don't have another variable. If it were loudness, we would be all set. The null hypothesis would be that direction makes no difference. We would hope to reject it, meaning that it does make a difference. I would imagine that you could see a difference on an oscilloscope, but I no longer have one.
All that I can say is that I would imagine there is one as I am confident not only that direction makes a difference as does the brand of fuse. These are not as substantial as power cords and interconnects, but when you are persuing realism in reproducing music everything matters. |
If the onus is on the ones who say they can hear a difference, and they say they can hear a difference, is the onus lifted? Onus implies responsibility on the part of the one being challenged. If they hear it and say so, what onus is there on the part of the challenger to relent when satisfied?
All the best,
Nonoise |
Kiddman wrote,
"Geoff, since there is no net flow, no "direction" of electron travel, then it follows there is no difference in the orientation of a fuse. Have someone change it, or not change it, and you have to identify it. You will see you fail as often as you get it right if the sample size is reasonable."
Kiddman, hi, actually that doesn't follow at all. What you wrote is known in the business as a Strawman Argument, a logical fallacy. The reason your statement is illogical is because the music signal is an electromagnetic wave that's not related to the electrons or the direction the electrons are moving. The musical signal, unlike electrons or current, moves in one direction only in an AC circuit. Follow? |
Geoff, the magnetic wave has no net flow....it oscillates back and forth, not in just one direction. THAT is the definition of AC. You have never taken a physics course, electrical engineering course, have you? Or, you would know better.
Knowing what you don't know is an important thing. You have failed to recognize that which you don't know. |
Kiddman, what you're not understanding is that the audiophile world is on the cutting edge of physics. Who needs CERN and their super collider when real advances in the understanding of sub-atomic particle behavior can be advanced with a $30k stereo system and listening to the soundstage dimensions of a Diana Krall CD. Knowing what you know you don't know is more important than not knowing what other people think they know, but you know they don't know. |
Yes, On Highway 61, I forgot how leading edge the physics is in audio. Nearly all the principles can be learned in freshman year at any of the best engineering universities, so high tech is audio!
Unlike intelligence, which is not much of a personal choice (though IQ can be raised), ignorance is a choice. Google searches bring up texts and university papers in any of the engineering and physics disciplines that relate to audio. But, folks would would rather mouth off and remain stubbornly wrong instead of learn something from those available texts.
"Don't bother me with facts! I have my OPINIONS" seems to be the mantra of so many audio guys (including many "designers" and reviewers).
In racing we used to call this type "bench racers". They talk a big game and it's fun to then see them on the track making fools of themselves. No such accountability in audio, unfortunately. |
Kiddman, so you agree with me now that the music is NOT the current and it's NOT the electrons. If the electromagnetic wave - the music - is alternating at 60 Hz I'm pretty sure you would hear it, well, maybe not you specifically. Lol Your next move: "No, it's the voltage that's alternating." |
"Louis Pasteur's theory of germs is ridiculous fiction." (Pierre Pachet, Professor of Physiology at Toulouse , 1872) "The abdomen, the chest, and the brain will forever be shut from the intrusion of the wise and humane surgeon," (Sir John Eric Ericksen, British surgeon, appointed Surgeon-Extraordinary to Queen Victoria 1873) "The super computer is technologically impossible. It would take all of the water that flows over Niagara Falls to cool the heat generated by the number of vacuum tubes required."
(Professor of Electrical Engineering, New York University) "Heavier-than-air flying machines are impossible!" (Lord Kelvin, president, Royal Society, 1895) "There is no likelihood man can ever tap the power
of the atom." (Robert Millikan, Nobel Prize in Physics, 1923) "Man will never reach the moon regardless of all future scientific advances." (Dr. Lee DeForest, Father of Radio & Grandfather of Television) "The bomb will never go off. I speak as an expert in explosives." (Admiral William Leahy , US Atomic Bomb Project) When the steam locomotive came on the scene; the best(scientific) minds proclaimed, "The human body cannot survive speeds in excess of 35MPH." Until recently; with the understanding of the relatively new science of Fluid Dynamics, the best(scientific) minds involved in Aerodynamics, could not fathom how a bumblebee stays aloft. Often; Science has to catch up with the facts of Nature and/or, "reality". I haven't been in school, since the 60's, but- at Case Institute of Technology; the Prof used to call what we were studying, "Electrical Theory." He made a point of the fact that no one had yet actually observed electrons(how they behave on the quantum level) and that only some things can really be called, "laws."(ie: Ohm, Kirchoff) Maybe that's changed, in recent years, and I missed it? I've not played with my fuses, other than having replaced them with HI-FI Tuning and Synergistics. If others cannot, will not, or do not wish to try to, hear the differences that fuses make; fine for them. I wish I didn't know better(from experience). I wouldn't know what I was missing, and could save a few bucks. |
Nonoise, so no one should buy a wine, car, or take a wife without proving their decision to others. I should note that you have not proven that you are right.
Magnetic waves are induced by any electronic current and electronic current flow is induced by any magnetic wave movement. So any motion in wires will induce magnetic waves and thus current flow. So we are doomed.
Since every piece of audio gear I have ever tested has the hot wire going to the circuit and the neutral returning to the wall outlet, there is always a difference in direction. I don't know of any naysayer who has ever changed where the hot goes to see whether it sounds different. For that matter I doubt that any naysayer has ever tested whether they hear a difference in fuse direction. And finally, I often wonder how naysayers pick the equipment they have. Is it entirely at random; the cheapest; or the prettiest? |
Rodman,
Nice post and historical quotes!
I respect the study and application of science. I do recognize there are numerous phenomenon and questions that science simply can't explain or answer (yet). At this point in time it seems our ear/brain detection prowess is far beyond what science can currently adequately explain. I tried high end fuses and they unquestionably improved my sound quality, it was that simple. What I can't do is discuss "why" or "how" this is so. I accept what I hear and just enjoy the improvement when it's available.
Charles, |
Of course it should be pointed out that once the trigger is pulled to get a hold of an aftermarket fuse the fun has just begun. The reason I say this is because there are so many aftermarket fuses available now, not like the old days when there was just Isoclean and HiFi Tuning. The last time I looked there was at least seven high end fuse manufactures, counting Audio Magic Super Fuse (which I happen to own), AMR, Synergistic Research, Furutech, Isoclean, Audio Horizons and Acme Audio. Have I missed any?
What this means is that the advanced audiophile, who has finally made up his mind to spring for a high end fuse, must now figure out exactly WHICH fuse to spend his hard earned cash on. What we need is some unsuspecting reviewer somewhere to stp up to the plate and evaluate all of the fuse offerings so one can make a decision. Fuses are getting to be as bad as cables. Lol |
Rodman99999, you went to the trouble to gather all of these examples where we learned that we don't know everything. I have always thought to do that. I used to have a citation of a speech by Harold Lasswell about the findings of the American Soldier project during WWII. He noted many findings, such as that black troops working better with Southern white officiers than with Northern white officiers etc. as findings. And he noted that everyone would have guessed this. Then he says about all of these findings, that they were not true.
I sought an EE degree but was also taking physics courses. They are like oil and water. Finally, I got a physics major, but as you might know a physics major from the '60s is not at all current, but a EE would be. |
Like most threads about fringe tweaks like fuses eventually do, this thread has now run its course repeating the same old positions with nothing new of interest.
Time to find some other dumb topic to waste time with..... |
***Time to find some other dumb topic to waste time with***
Dumb? Hardly. This thread is discussing the essence of high-end audio.
This particular thread happens to be about hearing fuses, but it could have just as easily been about ICs or PCs or cable lifters or green magic markers etc ... .
These things are what seperates high-end audio from Normal Audio Enthusiasts and Music Lovers.
If you think this is Dumb, then in effect, you think high-end audio and audiophiles are dumb.
In for a penny, in for a pound. You cannot pick and choose.
If you are, jumping ship, I understand Yorx is having a blow-out sale on certain models. Better hurry.
Cheers |
Tbg, no.
Only when challenged by those who have no standing in the matter as to why they bought that wine, car or chose who to marry.
I have no dog in this fight as to whether or not electrons flow in both directions. Never took that side. It doesn't matter one lick. It's just smoke. If I hear a difference, I hear a difference. That's not to say I can hear one when changing the direction of a fuse as I've never done it and have no inclination to try. Just swapping out a standard fuse for a better one did it for me.
All the best,
Nonoise |
