I use IsoClean fuses that have an arrow on the glass body of the fuse. I tried them both ways and decided that the sound was better with the arrow pointing in the direction of the current flow.
For mains fuses: With the power cabled unplugged from the IEC, use a test meter to check for continuity between the "hot" IEC prong and the fuse holder clips (with the fuse out) and then place the fuse with the arrow pointing toward the clip with no continuity in the fuse holder (AC flow direction).
For internal fuses, using a meter to check for continuity is more complex. It is usually best to try it both ways and decide which sounds better.
Good luck and Happy New Year! |
The arrow indicates "current flow" as with IC cables. |
I just looked inside to see which side has the wires to the transformer and which appear to have nothing. keith |
Put all of the fuses in. Then start listening to the music. Swap direction of the first fuse and listen again. Choose the direction that sounds best. Now move onto the second fuse and do the same. Finish with the third fuse in the same way. You should then have the best sound at the end and the fuses orientated the right way (assuming you can pick fuse direction on your system). I find it quite noticeable with fuse direction. I have a combination of Hi-Fi Silver Star fuses and Furutech fuses. |
For a long time Hi-Fi Tuning claimed there was no direction, but I always found there was, but it was predictable judging this from the printing on their fuses. With IsoCleans I have always found the arrow going with the hot side input is the best sounding, so I would confirm the current flow direction is the right direction for the arrow.
I should say also that when Synergistic Research tunnels fuses they do so in the direction of current flow. This greatly improves the sound as does painting the glass with AVM paint. |
Not having experimented with it, I am not in a position to take a position on fuse orientation, but fwiw it should be pointed out that ac current does not flow in one direction, it oscillates back and forth in both directions.
Regards,
-- Al |
One direction of ac goes through the transformer windings as they are drawn. Also one direction of ac is at the live end of the switch. All that I can say is that whatever the explanation, the directions of fuses sound different. |
Just curious,Geph0007. Have you noticed any real improvement in sound now that you have the fuses? I am vasillating on buying some. |
I have tried everybrand out there I have settled on the Synergistic research
Fuses they seem to be a bit more warm sounding with excellent layering of instruments. As far as direction I asked Ted Denny the owner of Synergistic
He stated going with the writing going in the direction of the current flow
Should sound best ,others have said differently,I have stuck with current flow and have not been dissapointed. I do clean all contacts first with 90%
Alcohol or Caig . Using the walker SST conductive paste is also an added
Bonus for all connectors. |
Audioman58, SR claims they zap them both ways on the Tesla coil and thus it doesn't matter. But now I guess they do recommend what I've always found best. |
I had all three Furetech, Iso Clean and Hi fi tuning and tried them all on the Expousre 2010s. As annoying as it is and stupid as it is they all had a different sound. Where does it stop?/ |
For my $$$ it stops with the new improved Audio Magic Super Fuse. I admit I have not compared the Super Fuse to any of the various HiFi Tuning Fuses, Furutech fuse, Isoclean fuse, Synergistic Research fuse, Acme fuse, Audio Horizons fuse or any other aftermarket fuse I might have overlooked. |
Geph0007, obviously we don't know as much about the reproduction of music from digital or vinyl as many would have us believe. Vibration effects on sound are another big trial and error area. Wires, capacitors, ac line noise, room acoustics, ear wax, etc. are among the continuing issues. And then there is the matter of many having no clue what live music actually sounds like. I mean with no amplification. |
I know what live music with no amplification sounds like...it's less loud, unless it's in your face..."get that damn bassoon out of my ear you FREAK." I also know what my acoustic guitar sounds like when I play it, except the only way to know what it sounds like to other people is to play something and quickly run around the guitar and listen to what I just played. You really have to be quick. Also, I wish I would have thought of the premium high end fuse business...damn...friggin' BRILLIANT. Maybe it's not too late...a fuse electron flow direction indicator gizmo could do it. "Eliminate improper fuse direction forever with my DECONFUSER." Tiny arrow labels included. |
How is it possible that Almarg's observation was completely ignored. A case of "I believe what I believe and don't bother me with the facts?" |
Wolf_garcia, I guess it much depends on what live music you heard at close range. I have done recordings immediately in front of a twenty piece jazz band. I have been immediately behind the conductor with a recital of the Chicago orchestra. There is too much amplification in most live music which seems to be what modern musicians prefer over being a good musician.
But you really avoid an answer to the fact that many differences are much more significant and many hear them. What accounts for this?
Almarg, yes music reproduction changes alternating current into dc and then must turn it into ac again. But many hear significant differences in all manner of parts dealing with this process. So there must be something more than your old dismissive comment.
Frogman, facts are obviously not facts but merely some people's inability to hear or more likely to reconcile with what they hope, namely that cheap equipment is just a good as more expensive equipment.
I certainly cannot understand why you would care that some people find fuse direction matters. They are not costing you any money or time. |
"But many hear significant differences in all manner of parts dealing with this process. So there must be something more than your old dismissive comment. "
Ok, so can someone who hears it answer the question clearly then?
You have a 50/50 chance of being correct.....pretty good odds for high end audio.
OR maybe even 100% if it turns out that this is all a load of crap. That would be my bet.
Daredevils!!!!! |
Tbg, why so quick to come to conclusions? If you know anything about my
feelings about these matters (and not that I would expect you to; or, want
to) you would know that I am far from skeptical about the perceived effects
of these tweaks. I am, and have always been, a believer in the idea that,
especially because of how much we still don't fully understand about the
record/playback process and how much we tend to underestimate the
complexity of music's sound, that just as with musical instruments, just
about ANYTHING we do has an effect on the perceived sound to some
degree. Wether any given listener can hear it or not is a different matter.
My comment re Almarg's was an observation about the lack of reaction to a
very credible comment about the subject; and, one that I would have
thought would, at least, inspire some commentary by the proponents of this
particular tweak.
****There is too much amplification in most live music which seems to be
what modern musicians prefer over being a good musician.****
Yikes! I suppose that if I were more cynical I would think that I might have
the answer to my question. Now, I had started to both praise Wolf's wit and
to question why he would make a comment like he did. However, I deleted
it as soon as enough bean kicked in and I realized that wit was the
operative word here. |
Frogman wrote,
"How is it possible that Almarg's observation (that the current is alternating) was completely ignored. A case of "I believe what I believe and don't bother me with the facts?"
Then the net current is zero, no? |
The actual signal itself, the one that carries the music information, the electromagnetic wave, is not alternating. Make sense? |
Frogman, I basically believe exactly like you save that having one undergraduate major in EE and the other in physics, makes me conscious of the limitations of EE laws and insight into what is going on.
Sorry, not too long ago, I was were a jazz group was playing at a small bar with amplification!!! I asked if they could turn it off and they said they could play without it!!!
Sorry, I've heard too much of wit like that of Wolf. |
Tbg,
Its true that not science and engineering cannot account for everything in reality. But it does a pretty decent job of accounting for the most critical factors usually.
Where would you place fuse direction on the relative scale of tweak effectiveness? What tweaks are just above and below in terms of effectiveness?
To me, one has to prioritize to focus on teh things that will add most value in any complex endeavor at any given time.
Tweaking fuse direction would be low on the list for me, one of the very last things I would spend time on, though assuming fuse is readily accessible, its a fast and easy thing to try onece one reaches that point I suppose, so it does have that going for it at minimum.
The thing with esoteric tweaks like this is there is usually not much down side to trying, as long as one knows what they are doing. So its hard to say that trying is a bad thing in that there may be little to lose. I would not invest a lot of time in this myself personally nor would I loose any sleep about not knowing which direction is "best" in that my prediction is that in most cases where things are in good working order to start, it won't matter much.
There could be value in the mere action of removing and re-inserting a fuse though in that the effects on electrical contact quality could be positive in most cases, unless something were to go wrong. |
I do not do the fuse thing now. I was easy at the time because with the 2010 it was very quick with the little drawer on back. Oe has to draw the line somewhere.
This whole idea of you hear a difference because you want to is a joke. Let me be clear I DO NO WANT TO HEAR A DIFFERENCE but it is there so it really comes down to where does one draw the line |
Education can be defined as what's left after you've forgotten everything you learned in school.
:-) |
Mapman, direction of the fuse is pretty low in priorities, especially if there are multiple fuses. I remember dealing with Sander Audio about fuses in their Magtech amp. In my telephone conversation, I had to ignore all of the why bother to know the values. I then learned that some were inaccessible. I tested only the outside fuses and did so merely by putting them in one way and listening and then the other.
The old concern about minimum leakage voltage in how the power cord is in has bitten the dust as a grounding plug makes it very difficult. Also lifting all the grounds save the preamp that greatly mattered with my old H-Cat preamp is no longer of concern.
So yes, some tweaks matter more and components and cables can effect the importance of the tweaks. The High Fidelity cables cause many to no long have any value or have added value. One that has become crutial is electronically isolating the speaker wires.
Finally, when you are retired there is more time to tweak. |
Almarg knows things. This is good.
The topic of "what live music sounds like" kills me. What we hear is influenced by personal perception that is individualized by ear wax, your hat, your background including mommy issues and environmental influences, food allergies, and cranium density (or emptiness). Also, I understand TBGs wit threshold as I have compassion for the humorless. I've been enthralled, irritated, freaked out by, compelled into trance like bliss, rendered itchy, and otherwise been exposed to a ridiculous range of live music including Thelonious Monk (I was maybe 11), my 4th grade autoharp gig, the Klezmatics, the Baltimore Consort, early Zep, Hendrix and Tull, weirdly entertaining open mic performers, decades of my own acoustic and electric endeavors including being haunted for many years by my guitar solo in an airline commercial, and all manner of jazz and classical stuff all over this flying wet meatball of a world...and my opinion is of no more importance than your drunk sister's...I am, by definition and professional standing, an expert, and I still would never try to define live sound for somebody else, other than trying to mix a show without irritating anybody...which I think only requires paying attention. To sum up, please pay attention. Sit up straight, spit out your gum, put the iPhone away, wake up your sister... |
Wolf_garcia, I agree. This is why threads such as what is the best sounding amp, etc. are worthless.
I used to have a concert pianist friend who heard my stereo system. Once when we were at his home for dinner, I asked to hear his system. He agreed and took me to his office. In it there was an old Webcor portable record player. I was surprised and he noticed, saying that the music was in his head but that he was interested in how different conductors dealt with certain passages. I wonder how common this is. |
Wolf, thank you kindly. I always appreciate the rather unique combination of literary creativity, humor, and relevant knowledge and experience you bring to these forums :-) 04-30-14: Tbg
Almarg, yes music reproduction changes alternating current into dc and then must turn it into ac again. But many hear significant differences in all manner of parts dealing with this process. So there must be something more than your old dismissive comment. TBG, thank you for noticing that my comment was submitted years ago, but note also that it was not entirely dismissive. 04-30-14: Tbg
… having one undergraduate major in EE and the other in physics, makes me conscious of the limitations of EE laws and insight into what is going on. Having two EE degrees and 30+ years of experience designing and managing design of advanced electronic circuits (not for audio), I too would claim to have a better than average understanding of the limitations of EE principles. As you may have seen in past threads, in fact, I have often had occasion to indicate that certain effects in audio are inherently and predictably unpredictable :-) For example, the audible effects that may occur in audio circuitry as a result of inaudible ultrasonic and RF noise frequencies it may be exposed to. I have also made the point in a number of past threads, however, that it is extremely easy in audio to attribute a perceived sonic effect to the wrong variable. And I frequently find myself wondering when I see claims of perceived effects that are technically inexplicable (inexplicable either “per se” or when considered quantitatively), whether methodological discipline has been applied that is sufficient to assure that the perceived effect has been attributed to the right thing. For example, with respect to fuse orientation Mapman correctly raised the possibility of variations in contact integrity. There is also the matter of assuring that the equipment is in an equal state of warmup during the various parts of the comparison, and that AC line voltages and noise conditions remain constant. It seems to me that ruling out these kinds of possibilities requires, as a minimum, going back and forth between the two orientations several times, and if differences are perceived assessing each direction across a variety of recordings to assure that the preferred direction is consistent. And upon doing this for one component in the system, whether or not differences are perceived it would seem logical to repeat the process for each of the other components, and for internal fuses as well as external ones. All of which reinforces my skepticism about the thoroughness and methodological discipline underlying many of the reported assessments of tweaks that are even as seemingly simple as this one, much less those that are more complex and expensive. Personally, I’d rather invest the time that I would consider necessary to do a proper assessment of fuse orientation listening to music. But to each his own. 04-30-14: Tbg
I certainly cannot understand why you [Frogman] would care that some people find fuse direction matters. They are not costing you any money or time. This is a common retort to challenges that are sometimes made to claims of effects that are seemingly inexplicable and implausible. I of course canÂ’t and donÂ’t speak for Frogman, but as I see it some people (including me) care because the basic reason most of us are here is the hope that sharing of knowledge and experience will be mutually beneficial in making our audio-related investments of time and money as productive as possible. As Mapman put it, prioritizing focus, based on the likelihood and degree of added value. Toward that end, it would seem logical to try to assure that reported effects, especially those that defy technical understanding, are not the result of inadequately disciplined methodology, attribution to the wrong variable, technical misconception, or factors that may not be applicable to many or most other systems. Regards, -- Al |
Before we start 'hearing' fuses, perhaps someone should demostrate that they can 'hear' amps. Should be a lot easier.
I cannot believe anyone, with an EE degree, or a layman, with the most rudimental knowledge of electronics, would give this nonsense a second thought. Or even a first thought.
Cheers |
Rok2id, and why should anyone care what you think. We all have ears. |
04-30-14: Geoffkait
Then the net current is zero, no? No :-) What is zero, assuming no DC offset is present, is the net movement of electrons. As your subsequent post sort of indicates you realize, power and energy, and in the case of signal conductors, musical information, are conducted unidirectionally, from source to load (assuming the load is resistive). During one half of each cycle, current flows in one direction, and during the next half of the cycle current flows in the opposite direction. Power is proportional to voltage times current, and that product is positive during both half-cycles (the product of two negatives being a positive), corresponding to transfer of power (and energy, which is proportional to power times time) in one direction (for a resistive load). AC current is generally defined quantitatively on a Root Mean Square basis, corresponding to its ability to convey power and energy into a resistive load, and reflecting the fact that equal amounts of power and energy are conveyed during the positive and negative half-cycles (assuming, again, that no DC component is present). However, I have yet to see a technically defensible explanation of how a fuse would have any "knowledge" of the direction in which power and energy are being conveyed through it. 04-30-14: Geoffkait
Education can be defined as what's left after you've forgotten everything you learned in school. That's a cute saying, but it's not really true. Regards, -- Al |
****Rok2id, and why should anyone care what you think*****
I cannot think of a reason why anyone should. Esp since logic and knowledge have no place in High-End Audio. All of which has no bearing on the validity of what I said.
We ALL, know the truth when we hear it.
Cheers |
Al wrote,
"However, I have yet to see a technically defensible explanation of how a fuse would have any "knowledge" of the direction in which power and energy are being conveyed through it."
It's really rather simple. The sound is different depending on the direction of the fuse, any fuse. Therefore, the fuse must "know" which direction the signal, the music signal, the electromagnetic wave, is being conveyed through it. You're mincing words.
Cheers |
Rok2id, I don't concede any validity to what you said. It is typical EE talk. If a fuse sounds different in one direction than another, science would suggest that find the reason why, not utter the inanity of saying it just cannot be true. |
I'm gonna reverse the direction of all the fuses in my rig, listen to it, reverse some of them, reverse the other ones, re-reverse the previously reversed ones, and then return the entire thing to its non reversed state. Allowing for reversal and return burn in, I should finish comparing the results by late August. |
I disagree that the sound of live music is not a valid standard for judging a component's or system's sound because of the "influence of personal perception", and as Wolf wittily says : "ear wax and one's hat". Of course there will be much variability from one live situation to another; different venues, different instruments, and different performers. However, there is much that is consistent in the sound of live regardless of situation to allow a valid comparison. It is true that we each perceive sound uniquely due to our own physiology (or hat), but it is important to remember that these will be the same when judging the sound of a component or system, so a valid comparison is valid. That we each "hear differently" as is often pointed out is irrelevant. Unless, of course, if there is some psychological factor that alters our auditory system's characteristics due to the simple knowledge that we are listening to electronics vs live; after all, the Fedora in my closet does have the power to make me feel hipper than not :-) The problem, as I see it, is that most are not very familiar with the sound of live at all. |
@Frogman- If you HAVE to explain; they WON'T understand! |
Frogman, live music is a difficult standard and has gotten worse. As I said, most groups cannot perform without it and those choosing professional audio gear are indifferent to the quality of that gear. At last year's Newport Beach audio show I listened to both Nnenna Freelon and Tierney Sutton perform live. I arrived as they were setting up and sat in the center about twenty feet away from the singers. There were two very large speaker arrays on either side. Everyone had their own mic. Especially when Freelon was on it was too loud.
Both singers gave great performances but Freelon is a showwoman without competition. I have her recording live and in my room I can turn up the volume and it sound very similar. I think increasingly that is about as good as you can be of using live as a standard. I have heard grand pianos live and they are loud. I have a few recordings that get very close to this. Forget about drums unless you have horns with compression drivers.
Finally, there are the halls. My University has a terrible venue. It has fluted concrete walls on either side of the stage and absorbent material on all walls intended to absorb all music. In turn the music is captured electronically and delayed in an echo chamber to get the needed delay and then sent to speakers throughout the hall. Some live music. One can sit in the center in the first two rows and get live music. Few want to be that close, but I do.
You say that "..most are not very familiar with the sound of live (music). I doubt that many can be familiar with live or that It is even real when they hear it. It probably isn't.
The real point is that there are no other standards for reproduced music other than live sound. I hate when some say that we should give up on reproducing "live music" as it is impossible. That our goal should be less lofty, namely "musical" sound. I say to them, go ahead and abandon the quest, I want "live." |
Wolf man wrote,
"I'm gonna reverse the direction of all the fuses in my rig, listen to it, reverse some of them, reverse the other ones, re-reverse the previously reversed ones, and then return the entire thing to its non reversed state."
I realize you're joking but the only way to do it with any chance of success is reverse the fuses one at a time and listen for a change in the sound. If the sound is judgement better for the first fuse go to next fuse. If the sound is worse put the fuse back in the way it was. If you're not sure if the sound is better or worse leave it alone and come back to it later. Continue until all fuses have been auditioned. Then repeat the whole procedure in case there were some fuses you were uncertain about. It will be much easier to hear the difference in direction the second time around. |
Geoffkait, I agree. I don't know who appointed Al as the judge of what is a "technically defensible explanation." Mankind is not that advanced, especially when it comes to our hearing. |
*****Therefore, the fuse must "know" which direction the signal, the music signal, the electromagnetic wave, is being conveyed through it.******
Mercy Lord, Mercy!! I can only conclude that you guys sell or manufacture 'audiophile' fuses. OR, you have absolutely no concept of electricity and electrical components. Next to you, the 'cable lifter' crowd make sense.
Cheers |
I'd say Al's about as good a candidate as I know of to offer up technical commentary regarding audio and electronics in general on this site. HE knows what he knows as well as what he does not and consistently states so accordingly in a very unbiased manner.
Not a good idea to discount knowledge that might exceed one's own. I think we all know that none of us knows it all. Well, except for GEoffkait maybe.... |
Newton did not need a technical explanation or even mathematics to realize what was going on when he saw an apple fall from a tree. The most important part of the whole scientific method thing is the ob-ser-va-tion. Hel-loo! |
No one appointed Almarg, but if you took it to a vote he'd win by a landslide. Credibility is hard earned and easily lost. |
" Credibility is hard earned and easily lost."
Quote of the year!!!!! Always true! |
My question remains, what live sound are we talking about? The sound of Esperanza Spaulding at Sculler's in Cambridge with Joe Lovano? Because at THAT show you couldn't hear her bass tone definition (bad sound mixer who should have been shot), and she wasn't singing...if you listen to acoustic jazz piano recordings, which I am addicted to, every piano sounds completely different due to mics (try matching THOSE from different brands), rooms, pianos, engineers, etc., and pretty much all of 'em sound fine. Just utterly different. Same with orchestral music of any kind, all of it sounds different. Often VERY different. Period. Unless you were there during the performance perhaps huddled under the conductor's podium, you don't know what it sounded like based on the recording, and would have no way to claim it as a "reference." To claim a baseline of live unamplified sound as your reference is a memory based position, and although useful and convenient personally, it is flawed as a communication tool due to all of these variables. This position doesn't obviate an understanding of what live instruments sound like, or what great hifi sounds like, it simply makes a point. Obviously you listen and percieve and develop taste from live and recorded things equally (because you're you) and apply that esthetic sense to both, but nearly infinite variables are right there, and should be understood. |
"My question remains, what live sound are we talking about?"
Obviously, all occurrences of live sound are different.
However, I'd say our ears can become trained to recognize the patterns that emerge in live sound after many repeated listens/samples from a variety of occurrences. Then quality of matches between what is heard on a recording and what has been heard live prior can be assessed to some degree, and better matches identified over lesser ones.
This is basically how computers are trained to recognize patterns in the discipline called "machine learning". Raw data is analyzed for common occurring patterns, then matches to the patterns can be determined, although with some degree of uncertainty, which can vary from small to large, depending on how well things are done. Our brains and sensory systems were done pretty well and work similarly. |
As David Farragut once said, "Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead." There will always be folks sitting on the sidelines throwing things at the players on the field. |
Raw data becomes cooked data once it enters your head, or at least it's refried. |
Rok2id, all I can say is that you are not a scientist. Observations are what matters. As yet I know of no instrumentation that captures variations when the fuse is in one direction rather than the other. Given your dismissive attitude, you certainly would not bother to look, nor will I as I have found the proper alignment for my equipment. I have also noticed that many companies are using wired in fuses and have indeed had to replace one of these. I must also say that fuse holders are typically made out of shitty materials for carrying ac.
I'm glad I escaped engineering and remained a scientist.
I see no reason to continue to monitor this thread as the "mankind knows everything squad" attends to it. |
