For a long time Hi-Fi Tuning claimed there was no direction, but I always found there was, but it was predictable judging this from the printing on their fuses. With IsoCleans I have always found the arrow going with the hot side input is the best sounding, so I would confirm the current flow direction is the right direction for the arrow.
I should say also that when Synergistic Research tunnels fuses they do so in the direction of current flow. This greatly improves the sound as does painting the glass with AVM paint. |
One direction of ac goes through the transformer windings as they are drawn. Also one direction of ac is at the live end of the switch. All that I can say is that whatever the explanation, the directions of fuses sound different. |
Audioman58, SR claims they zap them both ways on the Tesla coil and thus it doesn't matter. But now I guess they do recommend what I've always found best. |
Geph0007, obviously we don't know as much about the reproduction of music from digital or vinyl as many would have us believe. Vibration effects on sound are another big trial and error area. Wires, capacitors, ac line noise, room acoustics, ear wax, etc. are among the continuing issues. And then there is the matter of many having no clue what live music actually sounds like. I mean with no amplification. |
Wolf_garcia, I guess it much depends on what live music you heard at close range. I have done recordings immediately in front of a twenty piece jazz band. I have been immediately behind the conductor with a recital of the Chicago orchestra. There is too much amplification in most live music which seems to be what modern musicians prefer over being a good musician.
But you really avoid an answer to the fact that many differences are much more significant and many hear them. What accounts for this?
Almarg, yes music reproduction changes alternating current into dc and then must turn it into ac again. But many hear significant differences in all manner of parts dealing with this process. So there must be something more than your old dismissive comment.
Frogman, facts are obviously not facts but merely some people's inability to hear or more likely to reconcile with what they hope, namely that cheap equipment is just a good as more expensive equipment.
I certainly cannot understand why you would care that some people find fuse direction matters. They are not costing you any money or time. |
Frogman, I basically believe exactly like you save that having one undergraduate major in EE and the other in physics, makes me conscious of the limitations of EE laws and insight into what is going on.
Sorry, not too long ago, I was were a jazz group was playing at a small bar with amplification!!! I asked if they could turn it off and they said they could play without it!!!
Sorry, I've heard too much of wit like that of Wolf. |
Mapman, direction of the fuse is pretty low in priorities, especially if there are multiple fuses. I remember dealing with Sander Audio about fuses in their Magtech amp. In my telephone conversation, I had to ignore all of the why bother to know the values. I then learned that some were inaccessible. I tested only the outside fuses and did so merely by putting them in one way and listening and then the other.
The old concern about minimum leakage voltage in how the power cord is in has bitten the dust as a grounding plug makes it very difficult. Also lifting all the grounds save the preamp that greatly mattered with my old H-Cat preamp is no longer of concern.
So yes, some tweaks matter more and components and cables can effect the importance of the tweaks. The High Fidelity cables cause many to no long have any value or have added value. One that has become crutial is electronically isolating the speaker wires.
Finally, when you are retired there is more time to tweak. |
Wolf_garcia, I agree. This is why threads such as what is the best sounding amp, etc. are worthless.
I used to have a concert pianist friend who heard my stereo system. Once when we were at his home for dinner, I asked to hear his system. He agreed and took me to his office. In it there was an old Webcor portable record player. I was surprised and he noticed, saying that the music was in his head but that he was interested in how different conductors dealt with certain passages. I wonder how common this is. |
Rok2id, and why should anyone care what you think. We all have ears. |
Rok2id, I don't concede any validity to what you said. It is typical EE talk. If a fuse sounds different in one direction than another, science would suggest that find the reason why, not utter the inanity of saying it just cannot be true. |
Frogman, live music is a difficult standard and has gotten worse. As I said, most groups cannot perform without it and those choosing professional audio gear are indifferent to the quality of that gear. At last year's Newport Beach audio show I listened to both Nnenna Freelon and Tierney Sutton perform live. I arrived as they were setting up and sat in the center about twenty feet away from the singers. There were two very large speaker arrays on either side. Everyone had their own mic. Especially when Freelon was on it was too loud.
Both singers gave great performances but Freelon is a showwoman without competition. I have her recording live and in my room I can turn up the volume and it sound very similar. I think increasingly that is about as good as you can be of using live as a standard. I have heard grand pianos live and they are loud. I have a few recordings that get very close to this. Forget about drums unless you have horns with compression drivers.
Finally, there are the halls. My University has a terrible venue. It has fluted concrete walls on either side of the stage and absorbent material on all walls intended to absorb all music. In turn the music is captured electronically and delayed in an echo chamber to get the needed delay and then sent to speakers throughout the hall. Some live music. One can sit in the center in the first two rows and get live music. Few want to be that close, but I do.
You say that "..most are not very familiar with the sound of live (music). I doubt that many can be familiar with live or that It is even real when they hear it. It probably isn't.
The real point is that there are no other standards for reproduced music other than live sound. I hate when some say that we should give up on reproducing "live music" as it is impossible. That our goal should be less lofty, namely "musical" sound. I say to them, go ahead and abandon the quest, I want "live." |
Geoffkait, I agree. I don't know who appointed Al as the judge of what is a "technically defensible explanation." Mankind is not that advanced, especially when it comes to our hearing. |
Rok2id, all I can say is that you are not a scientist. Observations are what matters. As yet I know of no instrumentation that captures variations when the fuse is in one direction rather than the other. Given your dismissive attitude, you certainly would not bother to look, nor will I as I have found the proper alignment for my equipment. I have also noticed that many companies are using wired in fuses and have indeed had to replace one of these. I must also say that fuse holders are typically made out of shitty materials for carrying ac.
I'm glad I escaped engineering and remained a scientist.
I see no reason to continue to monitor this thread as the "mankind knows everything squad" attends to it. |
Almarg, it is mainly this statement to which I would take great exception, "especially those that defy technical understanding." I'm sure Einstein's theory face many who saw what he said as defying technical understanding. Were there any possibility of funding support or peer reviewed publication possible some physists would venture to research this question.
With your attitude, sir, you never will. |
Rok2id, I don't think you mean, "misunderstanding of the basics of electrical theory.* I think you mean the basic understanding that allows designers to do working circuits.
I know there is a good deal of trial and error in design and that even the position of wiring makes a difference.
What I don't really understand is why the hell you care whether some of us hear clear differences and you don't. It makes no difference to me that you hear nothing. |
Rok2id, I know you can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make him drink. |
Rok2id, either a fuse's direction makes a difference or not. What evidence do you present that it doesn't? Is saying that electrical engineering says it cannot top people who say they can hear one? You may think so, but I don't. You may act as though you are right and you may not care what I think. I will act exactly the same way.
Is there any reason to continue? |
Rok2id, actually it is just the opposite. In science you seek to reject the 'null' hypothesis, which in this case is that direction makes no difference in terms of another variable. Our only problem is that we don't have another variable. If it were loudness, we would be all set. The null hypothesis would be that direction makes no difference. We would hope to reject it, meaning that it does make a difference. I would imagine that you could see a difference on an oscilloscope, but I no longer have one.
All that I can say is that I would imagine there is one as I am confident not only that direction makes a difference as does the brand of fuse. These are not as substantial as power cords and interconnects, but when you are persuing realism in reproducing music everything matters. |
Nonoise, so no one should buy a wine, car, or take a wife without proving their decision to others. I should note that you have not proven that you are right.
Magnetic waves are induced by any electronic current and electronic current flow is induced by any magnetic wave movement. So any motion in wires will induce magnetic waves and thus current flow. So we are doomed.
Since every piece of audio gear I have ever tested has the hot wire going to the circuit and the neutral returning to the wall outlet, there is always a difference in direction. I don't know of any naysayer who has ever changed where the hot goes to see whether it sounds different. For that matter I doubt that any naysayer has ever tested whether they hear a difference in fuse direction. And finally, I often wonder how naysayers pick the equipment they have. Is it entirely at random; the cheapest; or the prettiest? |
Rodman99999, you went to the trouble to gather all of these examples where we learned that we don't know everything. I have always thought to do that. I used to have a citation of a speech by Harold Lasswell about the findings of the American Soldier project during WWII. He noted many findings, such as that black troops working better with Southern white officiers than with Northern white officiers etc. as findings. And he noted that everyone would have guessed this. Then he says about all of these findings, that they were not true.
I sought an EE degree but was also taking physics courses. They are like oil and water. Finally, I got a physics major, but as you might know a physics major from the '60s is not at all current, but a EE would be. |
Almarg, certainly ceteris paribus is sought in a good experiment. When I did my experiments with fuse manufacturers, I did treat all fuses with AudioTop and even tried to clean fuse holders, but many are very difficult to do this, but of course, I am holding an uncleaned fuse holder constant. I also held warm up constant as it took me about equal time to change outside fuses. Of course, listener fatigue was not considered, and I did get bored. You didn't mention that directions might vary from one component to another. I only tested on an amp, but then did some further testing on my preamp.
All of this started long before high end fuses were out. When I got my first Walker Audio turntable, he suggested that I switch the fuse direction in the motor controller. I heard an improvement one way.
You also failed to mention how you really go about this when there are multiple fuses in a component. I have sought to learn the direction from hot to neutral throughout the component. Some manufacturers know and others don't. Basically, I have given up with such components.
I dearly wish someone did an accuracy measurement between the music signal going into the component and that leaving it.
I don't think you can dismiss a difference on the basis of traditional EE laws. |
Theaudiotweak, is it possible to make a magnet fuse. If Rick Schultz can make magnetic cables, it seems that you could make one end a north pole end and the other a south pole end.
As you know, I really did not want to go without fuse protection, but were there a magnetic fuse, I would give it a real try. |
Geoffkait, I aware of all you say about magnetic fields, etc. I also know that many have worked with magnetics for years. I knew a guy who put a series of transformers in a box at right angles to each other so as to reduce the influence of the magnetic fields. I have had repeated discussions with some involved and have often been told that they cannot really explain why but that the use of magnets does work to achieve their goals. In the case of Rick Schultz's "magnetic conduction," I would have to agree that it works. I guess the conclusion I would come to is that science should pay more attention to these questions. |
Mapman, basic but ignored. Any motion of a wire results in unwanted signal induced by the motion reflected in the magnetic field and thus into your music. |
Joe_appierto, nice post. At last someone, who understands science and with the necessary gear, does a test. |
Mapman, how many times must you recite your mantra? If there is a difference with a change of the fuse's direction, this doesn't matter. We don't care that you are hung up on alternating cables. Why do you think all manufacturers run the "hot" to the input wire of the ac transformer and then to the circuit and the neutral to the return?
But if it sound different with changes of the fuse direction, it is real and we don't care what you think. |
Mapman, please just go ahead and buy any fuse that works and stop trying to muck up the discussions that other wish to have with more empirical listeners. |
Almarg, I remember reading your response. I would take exception to the use of the word, "insignificant." This word does have one quite specific definition in sampling theory, but generally it is just dismissive. Since you are not talking about random samples, I guess you mean it to be dismissive. I see no real way to make it so. |
Tonywinsc, Mapleshade use to make power cords that had ribbons whose draw was one way for the hot and the reverse for the neutral. I still have some somewhere in my boxes. Other companies copied them. Kondo use to make both silver and copper wire with the draw known. Synergistic Research zaps their fuses on their Tesla coil and does so both ways. |
Russe41, I guess if you are so close minded, I think it is strange that you would bother to engage in this thread. |
Schubert,Yes they do work. They also work negatively, namely such as saying, this mediciNe will make you sick would increase those who reported being sick. The scientific method is a faith, but it also requires "proof" to peers. God seldom confirms that she had said what men report her to having said. |
