More information would be really useful. It would really help us to see your system, if you create a virtual system and photos.
Given what you have asked. The real question is where do you want to go sound wise?
Right now your MacIntosh is probably supplying some warmth that an all Moon system will not have.
Really the most important thing is to identify the "sound" you are going for. On one end of the spectrum is highly detailed, lean, somewhat analytical systems with good slam. On this side is also what I call "sonic spectacular... crazy holographic imaging". On the other end is highly musical, natural sounding with great imaging, midrange bloom, great rhythm and pace. Combining different house sounds can make a perplexing number of different sound types. Moon is pretty detailed and a bit on the analytical side. MacIntosh is a bit on the romantic musical side... but lacking in detail. Your current combination may be pretty good. Focal tend to be hot on the top... so you Mac will help calm that down.
I am not a fan of combined streamer / DAC / Preamp systems. They are too much compromise... depending on your expectation. Note for instance, what is probably the best stream on the market is the Aurender N50 a three box solution, a great preamp is the two box Audio Research Ref 10. You get the idea... great sounding components are single function.
I would recommend a Aurrender streamer... N20 or better. And a good DAC... in the $ 7 - 10K range. I would love to recommend the Audio Research Ref 9... but it is getting long in the tooth. Berkeley Alpha is a great DAC. The DAC can be a critical decision because, like a preamp, it can influence the tonal balance... detail / musicality. It is easy
Before I could recommend a preamp. I would need to know more about your tastes. It is the key... and I think you need to be very careful.
|
@dman777 what do you mean by best sound from your amp? what is your setup lacking audibly to you? What do you want to add or subtract. Bass, midrange, treble, shimmer, sibilance. And note a preamplifier is the last one to change to fi any of the above. if you haven’t gotten the speaker, room, listening position dialed in. You can change Preamps as you want. You still won’t "get the best" out of your speakers
Seems you've already made up you mind though so get the Moon Preamp
|
Well, I’m not getting tight base and the clarity and detail that I heard the 861 in the store. Of course there’s other variables. But the only thing I can think of is the streamer since it’s the cheapest. What I hear is a lot of bloated base and many tracks will sound flat
|
well the obvious underlying factor here is the different spaces. Your room isn’t the store. Your room dimensions differ from the store. Your furnishing is different. The distance you listen at in your room is surely different from where you sat in the store demo
As you can hear deficiencies in bass and some bloat. it is a room related issue. Basically room modes differ in different rooms. Someone’s null might be your bloat. and you can’t tackle this by changing preamp. That is an impossibility. You need to tackle room/speaker coupling, seating distance (so you’re not sitting in nasty bass nulls)
If you continue to fly blind. Yes you may buy the Moon Audio but a different Preamp doesn’t solve room nulls (that is an impossibility. Physics can’t be whished away with purchases)
So, you’re better off knowing the approximate tonal identity your room in imparting under 500Hz in your room first. What are your room dimensions, listening distance and distances of speaker from front wall and side walls? I can simulate something in REW @dman777
|
DAC will make a huge difference in that system. Let’s start with what you can audition. What’s available from your local dealers or dealers that can send you a component for auditioning in your system. Don’t blind buy. You will get on a merry go round and the ride will suck.
Do you have access to dealers that cary Grimm, Mola Mola, Meitner, Bricasti, dCS? These are some of the brands that feature excellent one piece DAC with built in streamer and preamp options.
|
@audphile1 But don't I need to audition the DAC and streamer on the same equipment? What if the store has a dac and streamer I am interested in but does not carry Moon or Focal?
|
@dman777 - the listening environment/room will likely make a lot more difference in sound than the gear. Something that sounds great in the showroom might sound terrible in your listening room, and vice-versa.
|
Do you have a dealer who will let you audition at home?
I have owned McIntosh and when I decided to upgrade I auditioned Moon and Audio Research. Ultimately I went t with Moon as I didn’t want to deal with tubes.
I prefer combined DAC / Streamer - personal preference and there are trade offs for either approach
The question I believe you are trying to answer is would you prefer another component(s) in lieu of the Moon 891. Good luck in your journey- I would look at DCS and Linn based on my experience and the guess digital is your primary music source.
|
I agree that a lot depends on your overall system and preferences.
I have the Moon 891 and a pair of 761 amps in bi-amp mode. I have high end interconnects and custom designed speaker wires. The speakers are Sonus Faber Serafino. The room is 17' by 16' with 8.5 foot ceiling with acoustic tiles and wall to wall carpeting. I also have carefully controlled power.
The Moon system is terrific. Reasonably but not overly analytical and not mushy. I listen to mostly classical music mostly streaming on Qobuz. This works well.
A lot depends on the speakers. Sonus Faber goes great with Simaudio Moon. Sonus Faber are also on the warm side compared to say Magico.
So, as noted by others, a lot depends on your overall system and preferences. but chances are the 891 will work extremely well. One final point. Simaudio is a terrific, reliable company. They have been entirely supportive of me as I developed the system.
|
@dman777
It’s almost always better to go with separate components. Think of a Swiss army knife. It can do twenty things, but does it do any of them well? Another reason for me to get separates, is I want a different sound? I can switch the DAC or switch to a tube preamp.
|
|
@dman777 that’s right. You should work with a dealer that will let you demo the DAC at home in your system.
|
While I agree you shouldn’t buy blind, I can tell you that I’ve heard the North 861/891 combination and it’s very, very good. Can you do better? Sure. But, the $25k spend for a device that includes a quality DAC, streamer, and preamp, while eliminating the need for several expensive cables, is not excessive but a strong value. Importantly, to borrow an old phrase (that’s not quite so true any more) from Apple - “it just works”.
I think the weakest part of the North system is their streaming function, but it’s still quite good and the software seems stable.
Honestly, I have two systems - both of which I’ve managed to make more complicated than necessary. If I were to do it over - for at least one of those systems, I would pair their 800 series preamp/DAC with the 761 amp which I own already. I’d be happy to- and essentially done. And have spent a LOT less time and money getting there.
My $.03 (inflation)
|
@audphile1 I wish that was the case, it would make life so much easier... I have heard of those. There are none where I live.
@mgrif104 Thanks... that is the impression I have gotten so far from a dealer that I spoke to. He said that since the 891 is more recent with tech. it sounds as good as separates that would cost more money. But I have android and I am a little worried about the app. Also being locked in to just one app I am also worried about for that price level. With separates, I was thinking if the app was horrible I could at least switch streamers?
|
@dman777
You raise a fair point, but I would also note that you aren’t really locked into their proprietary app. Their app is good, but you could operate the 891 with Roon for library management and use the mechanical remote Simaudio provides (which is really, really nice) to control source and volume. So, you’d not be stuck.
From a performance standpoint, I wonder if you could do materially better with $25k to spend on DAC, preamp, streamer and cables separately. Perhaps, but I’m skeptical. Of course, it becomes an expensive proposition if you might choose to go further upstream down the road. If you are ikely do that, then perhaps go separates now. If you think you’re likely to be done after this, then I personally think it’s a great route. And, I say this as someone who has typically gone the route of more expensive separates.
Regardless - their app is not horrible. Indeed, I found it comparable to others I’ve used in the past like BluOS, Aurender Conductor, Lightning DS, etc., No - it’s not as good as Roon from a UI, but Roon also hasn’t, at least in my experience, sounded as good as the native apps provided by a manufacturer. And, I believe you can actually run Roon as well and switch between MIND and Roon as you see fit.
Best,
|
@mgrif104 I'm seriously considering the 891 because I need to come down to reality. I don't really have the money to keep playing around with different equipment. Roon sounds like a great option. If I use Roon on the 891, do I lose any sound quality?
|
@dman777
I can’t say if you’ll lose sound quality with Roon when played through the 891. But, I wonder if it matters as you could use the MIND2 app for serious listening and Roon for music discovery if you found there was a difference. Best of both worlds and an easy switch of inputs.
And you might find you like navigating w/ the MIND2 app just fine. I’ve used it - and it’s significantly better than the T+A Music Navigator that I routinely use with my equipment. And the remote that goes with the 891 is vastly better too.
In my experience, all gear has some element of compromise. There is no perfect component. Yes, you can optimize each but there are limits there.
I like the Simaudio gear and think it’s a good value at that price. While I can think of a couple of competing options I also like very much in that range ($25-$40k), the 891 is the best value, comes from a great company from our friends in Canada who’s been around a long time and supports their gear with strong warranties.
You should do what works for you, but I don’t think the software will be problematic for you. To repeat myself - if I were to do it again, that’s the unit I’d buy and I’d have saved myself lots of money, time and effort.
|
I agree that a lot depends on your overall system and preferences.
I have the Moon 891 and a pair of 761 amps in bi-amp mode. I have high end interconnects and custom designed speaker wires. The speakers are Sonus Faber Serafino. The room is 17' by 16' with 8.5 foot ceiling with acoustic tiles and wall to wall carpeting. I also have carefully controlled power.
The Moon system is terrific. Reasonably but not overly analytical and not mushy. I listen to mostly classical music mostly streaming on Qobuz. This works well.
A lot depends on the speakers. Sonus Faber goes great with Simaudio Moon. Sonus Faber are also on the warm side compared to say Magico.
So, as noted by others, a lot depends on your overall system and preferences. but chances are the 891 will work extremely well. One final point. Simaudio is a terrific, reliable company. They have been entirely supportive of me as I developed the system.
|
The refinement and soundstage with that 891/861 combo is excellent. I would try to find a dealer you can demo at. Mine let me borrow their 891. Where are you located?
|
@mgrif104 Do you prefer to use roon on your 891? And if so, does it take away from the silent background or liquid sound that the streamer gives in any way?
|
@dman777
As I don’t have an 891 - I have two T+A units - was this meant for @billsw ?
|
|
Oh my bad, I thought you did have one. sorry.
|
One thing I just realized... There are not really any 891 used streamers on the market. If I wanted to shop smartly, I could get a used Lumina U2 and Dave Chord Dac for about 12k used which is about 60% off. Would that sound as good as a Moon 891? I ask because the Moon 891 uses newer technology.
|
correction... I mean 40% off
|
Good friend of mine has the 891/861 combo and he loves it (with Wilson Sacha Vs). He uses Roon primarily. But if you decide to go separate DAC and streamer, $10k on a streamer would be a waste of about $8k, IMHO.
|
Simaudio also has the 791 Pre/DAC/Streamer which is $16k vs $25k for the 891 so that might be another avenue to explore (I don't know what the differences are). I suspect that mating either of these with your 861 would produce detail in abundance and you would have a great two box solution. A nice side benefit is that the Sim integrates easily with TV with HMDI ARC.
|
Quick question for you @mgrif104. You write: "If I were to do it over - I would pair their 800 series preamp/DAC with the 761 amp which I own already." Are you currently using the 791? Did you (or anyone else on this thread) ever compare the 891 to the 791, holding the 761 power amp fixed? Thanks.
|
@debrajray
I am not currently using the 791 - I have the T+A SDV 3100 HV (with preamp) in system one, and SD 3100 HV (no preamp) in system 2. But, I’m using the Simaudio North 761 amp in system 1 and like it very much. I did audition the 761 amp vs the 861 amp directly. Yes, the 800 series is better, but they’re closer than many would suspect - the larger amp being more “effortless”.
Unfortunately, I did not audition their 791 vs 891 preamp/DAC units directly. I’m sure there are differences, but to the magnitude of the differences I can’t speak. Nevertheless, I did hear the 791 with the 761 and thought it was very good on both an absolute and relative basis. As I stated earlier - yes you can do better. But it’ll cost you in time, effort and certainly in money. I like my DACs better, but they are also a price point up. (So I make sure I tell myself they’re better!).
Sorry I can’t be more helpful.
|
dman777
I'm in the separates camp, technology moves so fast on the digital side that I want that flexibility to replace a single component if I wish. Here's a sample of what you could do for $25,000
(1) Preamp - Aric Audio Motherlode II preamp $5,750 (RCA only) or Motherlode XL $6,875 (Upgraded parts - RCA and XLR), or Don Sachs/Lynn Olson Raven preamp $6,395, Backert Labs Rhumba Extreme 1.4 $8,500
(2) Streamer - Aurender N200 $6,700 or N20 $13,400, or Lumin U2 $6,000
(3) DAC - Denafrips Terminator 15th $6,100, T+A DAC200 $7,500, Berkeley Audio Design Alpha DAC Series 3 $11,000, Weiss DAC 204 $3,800, or Mola Mola Tambaqui $14,000
(4) Keep the Moon Audio 861 amplifier
|
Moon 891 doesn’t use newer technology than Chord DAVE. It uses different technology.
Moon uses off the shelf chips in their DACs while Chord DACs are FPGA.
What is 891 primarily? Is it a DAC with streamer and preamplifier sections? Or is it a preamplifier with a built in DAC and streamer sections? You have to know the answer to this question. Call SimAudio.
If you keep your McIntosh preamp adding Lumin/DAVE combo could actually give you good results. Using DAVE’s preamp section could be OK but I suspect it might be too direct sounding with 891 and Focals. Try it.
|
I have the Moon 891/861 combination and it is amazing. Very clear, musical, dynamic sound, and excellent bass and soundstage. I use th Moon 810LP phono preamp not the one built into the 891 (and have not tried it). There are three options on the streamer that I use: run Room Nucleus into the 891 DAC via USB cable; use Roon as a controller for the MIND streamer as an endpoint; or use the MIND software to control MIND. The Roon directly inputted to the DAC via USB or the all MIND options sound totally amazing and cannot imagine wanting better sound. I don’t think Roon as a controller for MIND is as good as the other two options. Buying separates would not be worth it unless you want to spend far more. According to reviews and Moon, the preamp in the 891 is the best that Moon has offered at any price and hard to beat relative to other options under $35,000. The built in case phono preamp has very good reviews as does MIND. I am completely happy other my system which has AudioQuest Thunderbird interconnects and speaker cables and Diamond USB, Niagara 5000 power supply, GoldenEar Triton Reference speakers; and a Rega Planar 10 turntable with Aphetta 3. You would need to get into a whole higher price point to improve your sound over the 891/861. I have no points of dissatisfaction with my sound, plus you get an amazing remote control with the 891 that is a very high quality dial and display (and very cool).
|
|
Hello @dman777 , you have a wonderful amp. Like some, I am in the separates camp and realize the benefit of that more now than ever. I also believe a quality preamp is almost always better than a volume control in a DAC or DAC / streamer. While I have Audionet amp and preamp in my main system, I have a Moon integrated in a vacation home and love it. My case in point about separates is that I have changed my DAC and my streamer, but keep my amps and preamp.
i would consider keeping the Mcintosh for now and trying a quality DAC. That way you are using the same volume control and know the pre amp sound. And this from a decidedly non McIntosh fan. A used Tambaqui can be had now for under $8,0000. I am sure the digital volume control on this great DAC is not as good as your present preamp. But am also sure the DAC is world class.
i don’t think you can easily perceive what a good streamer brings until you have a good DAC. That was my experience, and adding a quality streamer to my Tambaqui was another big improvement.
Another way to word your question is ‘how much better is the comparable Moon preamp to their combo pre / streamer / DAC (preamp and volume section)?’
I am sure the answer is better, by how much that is the value / importance question.
But with separates you will always be able to upgrade (and you will) and will never regret your purchase.
|
@fastfreight thanks! I am enjoying the sound of the moon amp, especially now that it's somewhat broken in. The only issue is that Moon doesn't really offer a preamp for this tier without a streamer and dac. So, if I want to go with a separate streamer and dac then then I'm pretty much stuck buying a different brand preamp. It wouldn't make sense financially to buy the moon 891 just for a preamp. It kind of bothers me because I would like that synergy I would get with a moon preamp. But as of right now I feel like I want separates for streamer and dac
|
Having owned Moon in the past, I would want a DAC and preamp that is warmer and more musical than Moon tends to be. So, perhaps this is good.
|
@ghdprentice I heard their past amps were like that. But that's not the case with North collection. It's definitely nice and warm but clear. I would save my Luxman is brighter
|
|
Yes Luxman is very bright. I would look into a good tube preamp like Audio Research, Zesto, Conrad Johnson. Unless you like highly detailed analytical sound.
|
According to reviews and Moon, the preamp in the 891 is the best that Moon has offered at any price and hard to beat relative to other options under $35,000.
Not true. The 891 is by far and away the finest "streaming preamplifier" (i.e. a preamplifier with a DAC and network player built-in) we have ever developed and one of the absolute finest in existence. It's analog preamplifier section is pretty much State-of-the-Art, thanks in part to some key technologies developed for this product.
However as far as analog preamplifiers go, our reference continues to be our flagship dual-chassis 850P. It is considerably more expensive than the 891, and has no DAC and no network player built-in. To be realistic, the question of which is better sounding comes down to how they are compared, as it depends heavily on the quality of the source component used on the 850P. In some cases, the 850P wins, in others, the 891 will be the better choice. What this does demonstrate is just how good the 891 is, and how incredibly close it does come to the 850P.
Costa Koulisakis
Simaudio Ltd.
|
Yes, I should have clarified that the 850P is still the flagship preamplifier for Moon, but not a streaming preamplifier like the 891 which also has a built-in phono pre-amp, but as you point out, the 850P as a pre-amp alone is relatively more expensive. Recent reviews have pointed out the excellence of the 891 and its pre-amp, DAC, and phono pre-amp, and there should not be concern about the combination of these functions into one unit. The 891 would be excellent to pair with the original poster’s 861 and provide exceptional value at the same time.
|
@mgrif104 Just to confirm, please.. you are using the T+A SDV 3100 HV as the preamp to your 761 Moon amp?
|
|
