What direction should Hi Fi tune fuse be installed

It would appear the naysayers are getting ready to concede. Can't say I blame them very much. Next topic suggestion: if fuses are directional, can it possibly be true that all wire is directional? The internal wiring in speakers, the wire in a capacitor, the internal wiring in electronics, speaker cables, interconnects, house wiring. OMG! Agree, disagree? Share, share!

How about magnets. Magnets enhance the directionality of ac passing thru them much the same as cryo treatment of metals and conductors enhance and unify the direction of their molecules. Results are better sound. Improved dynamics, lower noise.

"If you think this is Dumb, then in effect, you think high-end audio and audiophiles are dumb."

No, just wasting this much time talking about fuse directions.

Most of the rest is of more interest. Well, I gotta say with the exception of most of what Geoff likes to talk about in the interests of softening up any desperate suckers out there that might buy any of the crap he has the nerve to sell.

TBG, I think that your second previous post, which was addressed to NoNoise, may have been intended for someone else.

As Mapman indicated, the thread appears to have pretty much run its course, and opinions on all sides have been pretty well covered. As is usual in debates such as this, none of the opinions of any of the protagonists will wind up any different than they were at the start of the thread. Others who may read the thread will of course form their own opinions.

There is, however, one thing which has not yet been addressed by anyone other than me (and to some extent by Frogman, in responding to one of my posts). If any of those at the believer end of the spectrum wish to comment further, they may want to consider providing a description of what specific steps they took in their assessments of directionality differences to assure that the differences they heard were not the result of extraneous variables. Such as those I described in an earlier post, namely differences in contact integrity, equipment being in different states of warmup, differences in AC line voltages and noise conditions, etc. And note that I have not even mentioned until now the vagaries of aural perception.

As I indicated in my earlier post, it seems to me that eliminating those kinds of possibilities requires, as a minimum, that the fuse contacts be cleaned, and then that the listener makes several comparisons while going back and forth between the two directions several times.

Regards,
-- Al

Al wrote,

"If any of those at the believer end of the spectrum wish to comment further, they may want to consider providing a description of what specific steps they took in their assessments of directionality differences to assure that the differences they heard were not the result of extraneous variables. Such as those I described in an earlier post, namely differences in contact integrity, equipment being in different states of warmup, differences in AC line voltages and noise conditions, etc. And note that I have not even mentioned until now the vagaries of aural perception."

Al, excellent point. I actually have no problem whatsoever with double blind testing, which you seem to be proposing, or any other type of test, as scientific and as thorough as you might deem necessary, to get to the bottom of this thing. Of course, having said that, I suspect that none of the naysayers will be jumping into the breech to perform any testing. It's the old pseudo skepticism thing, I guess.

Theaudiotweak wrote,

"How about magnets. Magnets enhance the directionality of ac passing thru them much the same as cryo treatment of metals and conductors enhance and unify the direction of their molecules. Results are better sound. Improved dynamics, lower noise."

Interesting. So, let me get this straight. Are you saying that magnets reverse the direction of current flow or that magnets increase the speed of current or perhaps you mean increase the speed of electrons flowing in the cable? If any if those possibilities are true, how would that improve the sound? And improve the dynamics, and reduce noise?

Good point Al.

If you want to convince skeptics, some due diligence in testing process will go a long way, rather than just saying I hear it so its so.

Or we can just all go find something more productive to do.

Almarg, certainly ceteris paribus is sought in a good experiment. When I did my experiments with fuse manufacturers, I did treat all fuses with AudioTop and even tried to clean fuse holders, but many are very difficult to do this, but of course, I am holding an uncleaned fuse holder constant. I also held warm up constant as it took me about equal time to change outside fuses. Of course, listener fatigue was not considered, and I did get bored. You didn't mention that directions might vary from one component to another. I only tested on an amp, but then did some further testing on my preamp.

All of this started long before high end fuses were out. When I got my first Walker Audio turntable, he suggested that I switch the fuse direction in the motor controller. I heard an improvement one way.

You also failed to mention how you really go about this when there are multiple fuses in a component. I have sought to learn the direction from hot to neutral throughout the component. Some manufacturers know and others don't. Basically, I have given up with such components.

I dearly wish someone did an accuracy measurement between the music signal going into the component and that leaving it.

I don't think you can dismiss a difference on the basis of traditional EE laws.

Mapman, I heard you I get it. You're tired and can't think if anything to contribute. I totally understand. Maybe time to sit this one out. Lol

Theaudiotweak wrote,

"How about magnets. Magnets enhance the directionality of ac passing thru them much the same as cryo treatment of metals and conductors enhance and unify the direction of their molecules. Results are better sound. Improved dynamics, lower noise."

Couple of nits. One, if you are referring to the music signal, the electromagnetic field, it's a little unlikely that magnets can affect it since the electromagnetic wave is comprised of photons traveling at the speed of light. Like light, the electromagnetic wave in cables is unaffected by magnets. Two, if you are referring to electrons, electrons are not the signal nor are they the current. In addition, the electrons travel extremely slowly in cables, about a meter an hour. So, magnets, one assumes would serve only to slow them down.

Cryogenics, on the other hand, simply rearranges the atoms and molecules of the material making the atomic structure more homogeneous. So, apples and oranges.

Buy one and try one. Or several. Your into trying stuff aren't you. Tom

Hey, Tom, I've been using magnets since Christ was a Boy Scout. I'm just objecting to your explanation. For years folks were trying to get rid of magnetic connectors, magnetic steel enclosures, magnetic screws in speakers and wall outlet plates, etc. Who woulda think it, magnets are good! Lol

Theaudiotweak, is it possible to make a magnet fuse. If Rick Schultz can make magnetic cables, it seems that you could make one end a north pole end and the other a south pole end.

As you know, I really did not want to go without fuse protection, but were there a magnetic fuse, I would give it a real try.

Geoffkait, I aware of all you say about magnetic fields, etc. I also know that many have worked with magnetics for years. I knew a guy who put a series of transformers in a box at right angles to each other so as to reduce the influence of the magnetic fields. I have had repeated discussions with some involved and have often been told that they cannot really explain why but that the use of magnets does work to achieve their goals. In the case of Rick Schultz's "magnetic conduction," I would have to agree that it works. I guess the conclusion I would come to is that science should pay more attention to these questions.

Tbg, if folk aren't wrapping their toroidal transformers with annealed mu metal they are nowheresville. There are a lot of things going on under the radar that will come out at a later date, bye for now...

Magnetic fields is pretty basic Elecronics 101. No mysteries there, only how it relates and to what extent case by case. It usually does whenever transformers are involved.

SOme tweak-mongers would have us tweak shield to compensate for earths magnetic field even. ANd stick gadgets on our refrigerators. DOn't forget about that.....

Mapman, basic but ignored. Any motion of a wire results in unwanted signal induced by the motion reflected in the magnetic field and thus into your music.

To all, before we too sidetracked, let's try to focus on what we were talking about for a second. What we were talking about is the electromagnetic wave that is the audio signal. We only mentioned magnetic fields when magnets were brought up. Now, just to set the record straight, the magnetic field induced by current flow through wire or by a transformer is not the same as the electromagnetic field of the signal which, as we already pointed out, travels at the speed of light, or close to it, you know, being that the electromagnetic wave is made up of photons. The magnetic field is a different beast, as Mapman learned in Electricity 101, assuming he remembers anything. (He can always consult Maxwell's equations if he needs a fresher.) So, the question on the table is how a magnet which produces a magnetic field, not an electromagnetic wave, can influence the signal which is composed of photons that, if recall from Electricity 101, have no mass? Or have we kind of come to the conclusion that we actually don't care about how it all works as long as it works. Lol

"Mapman, basic but ignored."

I'll agree on that and say goodnight.

So, the question on the table is how a magnet which produces a magnetic field, not an electromagnetic wave, can influence the signal which is composed of photons that, if recall from Electricity 101, have no mass? Or have we kind of come to the conclusion that we actually don't care about how it all works as long as it works. Lol

Geoff raises a fair question, and a good one IMO. I believe I can shed some light on the answer, although my answer should not be interpreted as a defense of the efficacy of magnet-based tweaks, or as concurrence with Tom's statement that "magnets enhance the directionality of ac passing thru them much the same as cryo treatment of metals and conductors enhance and unify the direction of their molecules."

While as Geoff has indicated the speed of electron movement is VASTLY slower than the speed of signal/electromagnetic wave propagation, the two are intimately related. I believe the inter-relation will become clearer if it is thought of as follows:

Consider a signal voltage applied to one end of a cable, with the voltage applied to what we'll call the signal conductor being negative at a given instant, relative to the voltage applied at that instant to what we'll call the return conductor.

At that instant the applied voltage can be thought of as causing a VERY slow movement of electrons into the signal conductor, and a VERY slow movement of electrons out of the return conductor (at the source end). A VERY short time later DIFFERENT electrons will be caused to move at that same very slow speed out of the other end of the signal conductor (and into the load), while at that same instant still different electrons will be caused to move at that same very slow speed from the load into the return conductor.

The difference in time between when electrons slowly move into or out of the source end of the cable and when different electrons move into or out of the load end of the cable, in response to application of a given signal voltage, will correspond to the time it takes for the electromagnetic wave to propagate the length of the cable, which it does at a speed corresponding to something like 60% to 95% or so of the speed of light in a vacuum, the exact value depending in part on the dielectric constant of the insulation of the particular cable.

Thought of that way, despite the vast difference in speeds between electron movement and movement of the information-carrying electromagnetic wave, it does seem conceivable that the influence of a magnetic field on those electrons could also have some influence on the electromagnetic wave.

Regards,
-- Al

Al, nice post but I have a few questions. One is if it's true that magnets can affect the electrons in the conductor how would they affect them? Logically, I suppose it's possible that electrons can be attracted by the positive pole of a magnet or repelled by the negative pole, you know, given that electrons have a negative charge. But if what just said is true the what would that mean? If electrons are attracted by the magnet then wouldn't the electrons more or less pool around the location of the magnet? If they are repelled by the magnet which way would they move? If the magnet is circular and attached around the magnet how would that affect the electrons - repel or attract or both? If the electrons are neither attracted to the magnet or repelled by it, how do you think they are being affected? And if the electrons are being attracted and or repelled how does that affect the sound one way or another?

Thanks, Geoff. I have no idea, though, what the answers might be to your questions. All I can say is that it seems conceivable that a magnetic field could affect the signal, although not necessarily to an audible degree.

Regards,
-- Al

Al, I realize this next series of comments is beyond the scope of this discussion but I'd thought I'd throw it out there anyway, perhaps to see what you think. As I think I probably mentioned somewhere along the line on this thread, I have been using magnets in audio applications for a very long time. Furthermore, I have found them to have a positive effect on the sound. But the kicker is where I am using magents. I am using them on windows, on doors, on transformers, on cell phones, on TVs, on wood book cases, on mirrors, among other things. See, I told you it was beyond the scope. Lol. Now, having said all that I should also mention that the color of the magnet is quite important and depends on the object on which it is placed. For example, for steel blue, for aluminum red, for glass green.

Stanford researchers control light using synthetic magnetism.

I haven't been able to replicate this at home in my audio room yet, but I am working on it. Tom

05-11-14: Geoffkait
Al, I realize this next series of comments is beyond the scope of this discussion but I'd thought I'd throw it out there anyway, perhaps to see what you think....

Geoff, sounds like a sort of audio-related counterpart to feng shui. It's not for me, but to each his own....

Regards,
-- Al

Al, that's a VERY generous analogy! :^)

Mapman, I thought you were sidelined. I know, you just can't resist, right? So, it sounds like you and Al would not be interested in feng shui type ideas even if they improved the sound? Well, that's a fine howdyado. Geez, you guys really are set in your ways.

" So, it sounds like you and Al would not be interested in feng shui type ideas even if they improved the sound? Well, that's a fine howdyado. Geez, you guys really are set in your ways."

I can only speak for me, not Al.

Pick up a few follower's of your ideas and lets talk in 100 years or so.

I might even settle for a groupie or two.

Mapman, just can't stay away, huh? I actually consider you a groupie, no offense.

:-)

I'll post once and once only.

Those that belive AC mains fuses are directional, can easily prove their point, by getting someone of high regard like Nelson Pass or John Curl to back them up on this.

Here are their PM's so you can ask them to respond. And if they don't you know what that means.

Nelson Pass contact via email at First Watt.
nelson@passlabs.com

John Curl contact via PM at DIYAudio.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/sendmessage.php?do=mailmember&u=5524

Cheers George

****I'll post once and once only.****

Well, la-di-da!

****And if they don't you know what that means.****

Do you really think those guys have the time or inclination to post in an audiophile forum about something like this? That they would not respond means nothing.

Might email NASA or AES. Hey, I wonder what The Amazing Randi would have to say?

The quote below is from a multi-part thread on the Polk Audio Forum entitled "Studies On Residential Power Line Noise - Part 7: HiFi Tuning and Isoclean Fuses".

"Both the HiFi Tuning and Isoclean fuses have arrows on their cases which indicate that they should be oriented in the direction of current (energy) flow. Some people have scoffed and ridiculed the idea of "directional" AC fuses. Rather than something to ridicule, I saw the arrows as indications that there was something going on inside the "fuses" that required a specific orientation. Initially, my ears told me that the fuses sounded better in the direction of the arrows than against it. Noise spectrum measurements with an oscilloscope verified that the line noise was lower in the direction of the arrows than against it."

So, it would appear, at least according to the author that fuse direction does have a measureable bearing on performance.

Joe_appierto, nice post. At last someone, who understands science and with the necessary gear, does a test.

" I saw the arrows as indications that there was something going on inside the "fuses" that required a specific orientation."

Well, what do the makers say about that?

IF nothing, then we are back where we started...he said she said.

If they do, then at least there is something material to talk about.

Well, actually, no there isn't in that which way DOES AC current flow again exactly? Both ways I think. That is why it is called alternating current. So there is no direction even in which to align anything.

So that means you can choose to try both ways and pick whichever you like best for whatever reason.

No wonder people like these things. They give you something to think about and you can NEVER be wrong!

Gotta love that....

There are two points of interest, at least to me and some others, in the quoted review. First, there are differences in the resulting sound depending upon orientation. Okay, granted that's subjective. But what isn't in this hobby of ours? Second, there was less line noise when measured with the orientation of the fuse along current flow within the circuit.

I'm not trying to be argumentative here.

"Second, there was less line noise when measured with the orientation of the fuse along current flow within the circuit.Second, there was less line noise when measured with the orientation of the fuse along current flow within the circuit."

It's alternating current folks. There IS no direction of current flow to align with.

That's the basic fallacy of directional fuses that people who want to believe choose to ignore, whatever their findings may be. So there would seem to be no way to know which direction is correct, although in this case the writer at least cites some measurements made, FWIW.

One accounting in a blog should not be taken for more than its worth, though those looking to build a case surely will.

"So there would seem to be no way to know which direction is correct, although in this case the writer at least cites some measurements made, FWIW."

Even worse...there IS no direction with AC current, so there CANNOT be a correct or incorrect one.

Mapman, how many times must you recite your mantra? If there is a difference with a change of the fuse's direction, this doesn't matter. We don't care that you are hung up on alternating cables. Why do you think all manufacturers run the "hot" to the input wire of the ac transformer and then to the circuit and the neutral to the return?

But if it sound different with changes of the fuse direction, it is real and we don't care what you think.

Mapman, next thing is you're going to be telling us the voltage is alternating. Then you're probably going to tell us the audio signal is alternating. sheesh!

I took a look at the article Joe referred to. On the surface it appears reasonably credible, and to have been written by a technically astute person. However, I do question several things:

1)The noise components in question are so low in level (on the order of 0.01% of the 120 volt 60 Hz component, corresponding to about 70 db down) that I would expect differences to be observed simply as a result of minor changes in the physical positioning of the probe (and especially its return lead) relative to the nearby chassis and/or transformer or other circuit components.

2)In that regard, some of the fuses, apparently the power amp mains fuses, were tested "in a Radio Shack 20 Amp in-line fuse holder with 12 gauge stranded wire leads." "Alligator clip leads were used" to connect to the holders of other fuses. Again, I would expect in both of these cases that the physical manipulation involved in changing fuse orientation would affect the results by introducing small changes in the physical positioning of the holder leads and/or the probe and/or its ground lead.

3)All of the foregoing increases the importance of doing what I talked about earlier, namely going back and forth between the two orientations several times, and verifying that the results are consistent. There is no indication that this was done.

4)I note that all of the measurements were confined to frequencies of less than 500 Hz. And (as one would hope) the amplitude of the 60 Hz component appears to be the same in all of the spectrum photos being compared. Which leads me to wonder what sort of magic enables the fuse, much less its orientation, to be able to distinguish between 60 Hz and other frequencies that are so close to 60 Hz. Aside from power regenerators (which generate a completely new AC waveform), I am unaware of how even a sophisticated and expensive power conditioner could be designed to affect frequencies which are so close to 60 Hz differently than they would affect 60 Hz, much less a fuse, much less the orientation of a fuse.

I am not trying to be argumentative either, and I appreciate that Joe brought this seemingly well done paper to the table, but those are my comments. Mapman makes good points as well, IMO. The article refers to "the direction of current (energy) flow." Current flow, which the fuse "knows" about, is back and forth. Energy transfer is from source to load, but as I indicated earlier in the thread I have yet to see a credible explanation of how a fuse would have any "knowledge" of the direction in which energy is being transferred.

Regards,
-- Al

"Mapman, how many times must you recite your mantra?"

Until someone acknowledges that there is no direction with AC current so there cannot be a right or wrong.

THis is a fact and valid point. TO ignore it shows a disregard for facts when they stand in the way of one's agenda.

That's not to say that changing direction may or may not make a difference case by case for many reasons already cited ad naseum.

Whoever wants to tread these waters based on speculation alone more power to you.

TBg, you have Machina Dynamica on your side at least, if not anything usable by the people who actually make the fuses.

ALso, why burden people with a directional fuse and provide no useful guidance on which way to instal it in teh first place?

Why not just make it work similarly well both ways and save people the work of trying to figure it out themselves?

I can buy a good quality commercial fuse from many reputable vendors that have no directional connotations for a fraction of the cost.

Directional fuses are a bad idea, period. When I need one, I will buy a good one with the right specs that is NOT directional so as not to have to guess.

Al and Mapman, I don't mean to put your feet to the fire, but could either one of you kindly post a quote from an aftermarket fuse manufacturer, any manufacturer, where he states that "the fuse arrow is supposed to be in the direction of current flow." I'm pretty sure this whole "in the direction of current flow" is just something that naysayers, in lockstep, picked up on after it was repeated a thousand times on the Internet. Kinda like Morphic Resonance, the hundred monkeys thing. It's called a Strawman Argument. Hel-loo!

Al,

Thank you for taking the time to read through the article and raising the interesting points you do in your post. A technical person, I'm not. :)

That having been said, I do hear differences (a) when introducing after market fuses in the CD player, power amp, integrated amp and speakers that I've tried them in, and (b) when reversing the orientation of same. Why? Not a clue.

A question for you, if I may. You mention not knowing "how a fuse would have any "knowledge" of the direction in which energy is being transferred." Is it possible the fuse is constructed in such a way that it performs better one way than the other.

Just wondering.

Regards,
Joe

"Is it possible the fuse is constructed in such a way that it performs better one way than the other."

That is a very good question!

Mapman, please just go ahead and buy any fuse that works and stop trying to muck up the discussions that other wish to have with more empirical listeners.

"Mapman, please just go ahead and buy any fuse that works and stop trying to muck up the discussions that other wish to have with more empirical listeners."

Tbg, my ears tell me I am an empirical listener just as yours tell you which direction the fuse sounds better.

Sorry if my views and opinions conflict with yours. Im sure it is very inconvenient.

05-13-14: Joe_appierto
Is it possible the fuse is constructed in such a way that it performs better one way than the other.

That of course goes to the heart of the debate, Joe. From a technical standpoint I cannot envision any mechanism by which that could occur. As you may have seen in reading through the thread, though, my instinct has been to not question the perceptions of those who report hearing differences (although I certainly would not rule out the possibility of flawed perception in all cases). Given the lack of technical plausibility, it seems to me that the most probable explanation is that reported differences are generally due to unrecognized extraneous variables. The leading candidate perhaps being differences in contact integrity as the two orientations are tried. Perhaps also differences in equipment warmup state, and fluctuations in AC line voltage or noise conditions.

Which is why I have emphasized the desirability of performing comparisons while going back and forth between the two orientations several times, before drawing any conclusions.

Best regards,
-- Al