What define "musicality" ? And what constitute "musicality" in audio ?



I think that "musicality" is the most important factor and attribute in living audio experience... The experience of "musicality" i think, cannot be reduced to subjective factors only, nor objective one...It is more easy to describe what it is not, than to describe what it is, perhaps like the experience of God in theology...But for sure if you get it, it seems the most important resultant factor of your audio grid system,you feel it and like it the most...After 7 years i feel it more than ever...The urge to upgrade recess in the background because when you feel "musicality" already at a certain level, you dont believe that it is possible to push that level really higher at an affordable cost... "Musicality" for me, in my words, correlate with realistic musical timbre and voice, fluidity,no harshness at all, no fatigue, and last but not least, listening music and forgetting the sound...

This is my personal my experience, i am curious to read others about that,about their "way" and "means" to live that experience...Thanks to all...
128x128mahgister
Very interesting story stray_cat,it is like my own story....I discover that I enjoy that quality the day I listen less to the sound and more to the music...It takes me some years of  experiments and purchase....My best to you...
@n80. Thank you.

I view musicality as puffery. It is like saying authentic Italian food or best pizza. 
Making me tap my feet, move my body, dance, eyes water up or overwhelm me with unexpected emotion is a good sign.

Very grateful for words of wisdom a seasoned "audiophile" shared with me some 30 odd years ago I'll always remember:

Judge gear in my rig (or the rig) by how it compels me to listen.

I should feel "I want to or can't wait to turn the system on". Like an itch I can't help but scratch lol.

Someone mentioned food being tasty. I've cooked in quantity (like 20 servings) that did not seem to stand out in taste but leftovers were gone in 2-3 days. I looked forward to eating leftovers. What *did* stand out was noticing I enjoyed and ate the rest of it cold.

I made the same dish other times and although it seemed tasty at first, the leftovers stayed untouched in the fridge for almost a week so I had to keep reminding myself to eat it before it went bad.

Just my observations that tells me something must be "righteous", though I'd be hard pressed to nail down what that is sometimes.
When I encounter a great piece of architecture, I just start dancing...it's actually pretty easy.
For me musicality = a strong emotional response to what I'm listening to.  As example the first track on Satchmo plays King Oliver. St. James Infirmary, played on a the right system, gives me goosebumps.   If I hear it on the radio - it's just good music.  A good system is able to deliver more, of the right sounds, that our brains decode, that results in an emotive response.  
I knew a guy who for 50 years  used only applause as his guide and he could  make your system sing . I tried to learn his method but it was beyond me .
I really think that natural sound and piano are real test of how natural and musical sound an audio system... But a big classical orchestra is one of a test... 
Answer to mapman’s question - everything sounds better with tubes. Especially water sounds, applause, train sounds, voices, helicopters, guitars, violins. Perhaps surprising to many Sony Walkman CD players sound like tubes, at least my hopped up ones do. 
Last weekend I ran a live show for an astonishingly great string quartet that was astonishingly great. They all used mics they'd brought...tiny condensers...miking violins is always tricky, but these little mikes worked swimmingly and man...astonishingly great (did I mention that?), and they felt the sound was natural and excellent, which I need to hear for my fragile ego...you can make the case for live music played by great musicians to display musicality, as why else would they show up? I'll tell you why...MONEY....
Nothing better for reference to determine accuracy of sound reproduction than naturally occurring sounds one is very familiar with already. 

You never can be sure where recorded music has been prior to reaching your ears.

Does a a rooster crow or thunderstorm sound better with tubes?
I think one can learn a lot about sound and perhaps even which direction to go by listening to certain “sound effects” and using them as a tool. You know, things like thunderstorms, rain hitting pavement, audience applause on live recordings, the glissando on guitar or harp, vocal artifacts like breathing and smacking of lips, movie soundtracks like Apocalypse Now!, which as a plethora of well-recorded spoken words and “sound effects.” There are some Pink Floyd albums that can be used to evaluate system sound quality, too, obviously.
Well it is all about music so no surprises there.

One could spend their time listening to sound effects I suppose if they really want to focus on other things..
Alot of audiophiles listen to the equipment and that's ok. Some of us use the equipment to listen to the music. That's better. My grandfather had a single speaker radio that he listened to everyday. He knew more about music than most people could ever dream of. I remember when I was a kid at Papa's house the music was always on. It was a house that was always musical. I miss those days..and him. Musical is a very subjective term. Enjoy it when it happens as it's a joy denied to many. DH
You are right Snapsc, the joy was the sailing...the journey... But I dont have the money to try many equipment... And I was craving for listening my music, the music I know sometimes for 50 years, but with real quality sound...

Without money, with  some wise purchase, and with my own experiments, and some device of my own design, I had it now; and I dont feel frustrate now when I listen my music because I cannot afford the new gear I read about... Then the joy is perhaps not only the journey but touching the goal in some extent, especially without too much money...

Because I am curious I want to listen your own history about this journey and the means you use for touching the goal (relatively for sure)… 
Thanks and my best to you.. 
I think it also has to be recognized that for many, the joy is the search for musicality... the journey.... and maybe not the ultimate destination. 


For  those that have the money and time... the fun may be trying new equipment... achieving new sounds and maybe even sharing their journey. 
I am fond of your story with "musicality"... I enjoy learning...Especially your evaluation and the reasons behind that "musicality" experience in your own life with your own audio system...
  N80, I perfectly know that there is no definition perfectly clear of God nor "musicality"...

But I am here to learn and listen to your own story about that experience... For example in your case how luck or inheritance transform a life without music with a life  with music and a relative "musicality"...

I perfectly know that this term is a metaphor... The experience is not, "God" is a metaphor, living "musicality" also, in the 2 cases, real experience are possible and sometimes real but always  relative to each of us... 
I agree with Geoff. Saying a system has 'musicality' is like saying a steak or cup of coffee has flavor. On the one hand it states the obvious and on the other hand it doesn't convey any useful information. 

And again, if everyone has their own definition of it then it can only really serve to confuse things.
snapsc149 posts

So, if you are able to just listen and enjoy, then just maybe you have a musical system....and the rest of the descriptions and definitions don't matter.



And yes I have "musicality" now, I listen to all my files with the same forgetting of the sound, particularly those files I was listen to no more because of their bad  sound...Their sound was most of the times not so bad, it was my system that was not able to give me some basic rendrering of them... Now I listen without changing the files by boredom, or hate, or indifference most of the times... A good system makes what is good, very  good, and what is bad better... For me this is "musicality" gain in my audio system... I am only interested by your history in audio, your way to gain that experience of "musicality" and the reason why you gain it finally, even if it is a relatively hard concept to define, a metaphor, that experience exist for each of us in different modes, or versions, or occasions... Thanks for you interest, understanding and participation...
Geoff,you sound like an old men saying that this or that is an illusion...For sure "musicality" is a metaphor for some experience that is relative like an "horizon"...

I am just curious to the history and methods,or purchase, of people here in an audio forum, about this experience that is an horizon toward with all we navigate...Sometimes someone shout "terra" "Terra" and the goal is relatively reached, with this person and his boat(audio grid)… I dont sail anymore now, I am on my island, I have shouted "terra", and I dont think to buy another boat...

By the way, I read about your "peebles" on cable some years ago, that inspire my experiments with stones...And that work, and I dont mock you like stupid people who dont experiment and dont have open mind...That work really on my cable and that was a step toward this experience of "musicality"... Thanks for your inspiration...

But now Geoff you said to me that,no, I am not in India but in America, my goal was an illusion in this travel...Perhaps I am wrong, I am not in India,but I love America,the New India, and for me this great feeling of discovery I called it metaphorically "musicality" or " the new India"... My illusion is my treasure old man...The "terra" was in sight in the end...You know it only if you buy a ship and go for the travel...Thanks Geoff, for some equipment you give to me  along the sail...
geoffkait14,271 posts
03-12-2019 4:05pmMusicality is a mirage, a spectre, a chimera, an illusion. There is no standard for musicality. And there is no ideal for musicality, just like there’s no ideal for sound quality. Everything is relative. As Bob Dylan says at the end of all his songs, good luck. 🤗

Three points:

 

First: In the words of Jeff Foxworthy…”You know might have a musical system if….” This is where things get hung up…..so…

 

Second : What defines musicality…is a lot like defining great pizza or great wine…it is in the eye, mouth, ear of the beholder.

 

Third: And now a possible real world definition….you turn on the music and you listen…and never once did your brain try to cut in and tell you all of the things that might be better…such as…”hmmm, I wonder if a Be tweeter would make that trumpet sound better”.


So, if you are able to just listen and enjoy, then just maybe you have a musical system....and the rest of the descriptions and definitions don't matter.


Musicality is a mirage, a spectre, a chimera, an illusion. There is no standard for musicality. And there is no ideal for musicality, just like there’s no ideal for sound quality. Everything is relative. As Bob Dylan says at the end of all his songs, good luck. 🤗
As for the O.P.s' original query...

Apart from any testing, graphs, specs, etc.

Group consensus....but I'm just voice in the wilder mess...;)

When I first came to Audiogon I asked if there was a glossary of some sort with terms used to describe sound and music. I think it was member david_ten who provided this link.

This is a very handy and very extensive resource:

https://www.stereophile.com/content/sounds-audio-glossary-glossary


Jafant thanks...But I have a question, at which step of your audio history do you gain that " musicality" experience in your audio system and why? What are the factors that makes possible this "musicality" experience audiowisely speaking ?
mahgister

Musicality is realistic texture and timbre in passages that engages the listener. Musicality in the Audio gear makes the engagement (event) happen.  Very good information and points of view as above.

Happy Listening!

musicality
noun
sensitivity to, a talent for, or knowledge of music.

musical 'reality'.

of course, with reference to the output of an audio system.

i believe descriptors are valid, and even needed to convey, in truth or as close to the truth as is subjectively possible how much or how little of various facets of the audio 'envelope' are present or vacant, and how they arrived or were removed.

the confusion arrives during quantification of this or that aspect.

how much bass report was produced when the cannons explode in the 1812 Overture.

or just how sweet, warm, bright, and or resolving was any portion of the reproduction?

to these ends, I feel its common to interject presumably well known or commonly acquainted items from areas far fetched or vastly different from their audio spectrum counterparts, purely for familiarization with well traveled, better known avenues.

sound stage depth was cavernous is an easier pill to swallow than would be "the sound stage depth was as cavernous as those which exist in the Caves of Carlsbad, CA, or those in the Ural Mountains of russia.

essentially quantifications of unknown but recognized values, require imagination and articulation sufficient enough, so the proposal being transmitted, listed, or accounted for, by the describer framing the various qualities being noted are adequately or reasonably comprehended at some later date by whomever.   has the desire to review it.

the issues I am unable to abide long or at all, are references from completely unknown works, or with entirely unfamiliar settings or venues.   an author chooses to use as his or her adjectives and adverbs. as well listing uncommon, presumeably urbane, or eclectic musical works which could only be auditioned by the narrowest of means.

EX: the trumpets resoundding echo was identical to what I heard on the Piazza del Soloboundifuesta by the St. Phillip Basilica in upper Gaston France during festival in 1975..

great!

now I gotta get some fancy sneakers, a pair of cammeras, and some knee high black socks, and schedule some long distance globetrotting so i can maybe be in the loop??

sheesh.


EX: I played the Duetsche Grammarphone 218Gram pressing of the 1966 spanky and our gangs choral recital of the Franciscan monks Omage to St. Ammaretto... in D minor as conducted by Sir Walter Humperdink ... etc., etc. which there are only 200 known Lps on the planet at last count.

can't even find a copy on itunes!

if it ain't available on itunes, well, then its just not musicality.

I've no issues with anyone dusting off seldom employed words from the language, culture, or social standards du jour. frankly, none.

neither will I take to task to often those whose memories slip back to some 'feel good' rumminations now and then. but when all of the penned accounts are extreme, desperately remote vehicles used expressively, hell man, buy an American car for Pete's sake.

I mean, that is if you want me to join in on your little journey, and oh, yeah, maybe buy the thing or concept you're selling.

lets be real and eliminate adding these inoccuous grains of fascination so very few have or will ever have had the occasion to enjoy.

... and exactly how valid are 'aural' memories from years ago? decades ago?

I've been to a lot of places around the globe. main stream types and no where near the stream sorts to boot. I've even wound up in the streams a time or two though time has taken the edge off of most of those ventures, adventures, and fascinations.
I'm not sure If I can recall what I had for dinner yesterday!

regardless the degree of articulation, eloquence or communicative level being related, the more commonly known items, places, things, and experiences are always going to be the ones the overwhelming majority of people will be able to satisfactorily digest when reading or re-reading an article.

when you elevate the discourse or involve a wealth of eccentricities you will diminish the number of people capable of relating to it.

knowing what to say or how to say it is not nearly as important as knowing who you are saying it to..
We inherited a Telefunken table radio from my husband's grandfather.Gorgeous,euphonic,and "musical" sound .Our main system is of course truer to real live music.Totally different but "musical" .They both stir within each of us a profound emotional connection with the music.
I will defend old people no matter what kind of nonsense they might say from time to time.
Young are to become old unless die before that time. First learn to shut up and listen then argue, maybe.
On the subject of this thread. I heard many instruments live that did not sound musical to me. Same with speakers. Musical means as natural as it should be.
Thanks N80...
Interesting how luck drives sometimes our life, and I understand your "musicality" moment revelation...For example after gaining that audio "musicality"at the end of my 7 years quest I listen now to new music that was not my first love...Jazz for example, I like it very much in my improved audio system... My first love was Bach and choral music and piano with the divine Scriabin, I can listen that on any system even a bad one because I love this music so much... But new musical tastes for me sometimes are possible only in an improved audio system to sound at his best... I am also now interested in therapeutical music,classical Indian music and Persian ancient music or Iranian contemporary music and it is more easy to taste that with a good system...


"Your history enlightened my day"

Glad my story could do that.

My system was originally purchased by a fairly wealthy bachelor cousin. When he moved out of his home and into a penthouse apartment he told family members to come get whatever of his stuff they wanted. He was going minimalist. I thought all this was kind of strange and did not go.

But, my brother-in-law and his family jumped in the truck and got some of his stuff. In that stuff was this system. I think they thought they were getting something like those multi-component systems from the 1980s.

When they got it home the wife didn't want the giant speakers in the house and they did not know how to hook it all up anyway and so it went in their basement for several years. I knew it was there but had no notion of what it was.

So when my low end system started to fail I asked him if I could try that stuff. Once I got it all going I told my brother-in-law how great it was but he did not want it and did not want it back in his basement. So here I am.
Ah! thanks very much N80..Very interesting read for me... Your history enlightened my day...Please would you described this miraculous inheritance... I am curious and hooked by your personal story...The story of each one of us is at the end the story of all...Thanks to you... Reading you I understand you so much...
@mahgister: "I am interested by you and your walk and particular road and experience in audio toward simple joy"

Okay, I'll bite. Others have heard this before. I have always been a music lover. I have always had some sort of 'system' but mostly low-fi. And for decades had great enjoyment of music on those low end systems. Usually on weekends.

Last summer I inherited a really nice system 16-17 year old system that had been languishing in a basement.  I wasn't even sure how to hook it all up....had never seen XLR cables or bi-wired speaker wires bigger than a garden hose.

The first try out of the system was disappointing. Sounded flat and low bass.

So I came to this site and got some advice about old gear that had been sitting a long time, room dynamics, etc. When I got all that right I was blown away. Dropped DirecTV and now listen to music every day. Mostly the same music as before just on a better system. I've been replacing a lot of that music which was mp3s purchased on iTunes with well researched and well produced CDs.

So what grabbed me? Transparency. The system disappears. Richness. Fullness. Ample soundstage. Separation. Precision without sterility. Nice highs without glare or being too bright. And one of the most important things to me: bass. Not thumpy boomy bass but tight, precise, well defined bass that is balanced with the highs and mids but still able to thump when it should. That's what keeps me coming back and what has given new life to the music I have always liked.
When I was young (20 years old) a friend of mine,older, introduce me to audio...Together we listen to classical music, on his homemade speakers, with relatively good amplifier(phase linear)… I dreamed years after that to listen my Bach on a good system with some "musicality" to my ears... My own system at this times was particularly minimalistic and not so good...

Then 45 years later, i succeed (relatively speaking for sure) to create some relatively good, for the price paid, audio system, even if i never had enough money to buy what I dream for in audio... To touch this dream then i read a lot on many audio forums for the last years, at the end, modulo some information, I succeed by wise purchase with few bucks to devise, with luck and mostly experiments, some audio system with a relative and satisfying "musicality"... The greatest improvements always comes from simple experiments with room and gear , way more than from the purchase of the amp,speakers,dac .etc For sure it is very important to buy the right product, but money dont buy necessarily audio "musicality" nor good taste,nor ears education... This is my simple history and the reason why I am interested by you and your own discoveries...I want to learn and read from you, simply that...Suggestions are welcome,observations are welcome...

If you want to say anything else,be like Geoffkait, always short and sweet, and most of the times funny...
I dont want to argue about "musicality", it is only a metaphorical term that speak about some pleasure suddenly felt after some modification of an audio room or grid, by creative, inventive means or an intelligent purchase...It is an audio forum ,not a linguistic symposium nor a philosophical one... I am interested by you and your walk and particular road and experience in audio toward simple joy... Never mind snobism or stupidity, I only want to listen to some intelligent and sincere lived experience by anyone who has something to communicate apart his own prejudices and boredom or bad faith...I accept smiles and spirit...

By the way I own a Sansui, this is very good but not the holy grail except for the low price, my sex life is good for the past month and perhaps the new one, I had only the normal hearing loss linked to my age...

musicality |ˌmyo͞oziˈkalətē|

noun

tastefulness and accomplishment in music: she sings with unfailing musicality.

• the quality of being melodious and tuneful: his speaking voice hinted at musicality.

• awareness of music and rhythm, especially in dance: the audition panel was looking for coordination, musicality, and flexibility.


Perhaps, Musicality = Music to my ears

It has nothing to do with the system. Just spin a disc full of music you despise: Even God bestowed an heavenly perfect setup onto you, it would not have any musicality to your ears.

In other words, claiming an hi-fi system with musicality = It gets out of the way (i.e. doesn’t distract you enough) to enjoy the music.







@mahgister, you asked:

"Apart of personal musical taste and education, in your own audio system what steps had make possible the experience of "musicality""

As with some others above, I’m still not convinced "musicality" is a useful term. That’s why I said in my first response:

"I think when that is the case it is easy for us to misunderstand one another and not even know it."

In this thread alone there is almost no agreement on what it is or even whether it is a system issue or a performance issue.

Heck for schubert it is any music that is at least 100 years old and performed without the aid of any 20th century technology whatsoever. ;-)

So I can’t answer the question.

I can tell you what I like about my system but I wouldn't use the term musicality or musical to do it.


This time I find myself in agreement with Geoff Kait. It seems to be a weird combination of impending death, hearing loss, and refusal to admit failure when the time to start over has come and gone. I can’t count how many old geezers have smugly announced that they have finally discovered the Holy Grail and announce it was found in a yard-sale sourced 1970’s Sansui receiver, Bozak loudspeakers, and carefully tinned lampcord. These are the same guys who want us to know that after 50 years of marriage their sex lives are better than ever.
Musical taste has nothing to do with the personal experience of "musicality" per se... Every one has his taste, and bliss is a democratic possibilities for all biological human entity... I am more than ever curious about the particular experience of "musicality" in audio by each of us...Steps,means, revelations,experiments etc ... I am even interested by what money can buy if you have no other revelation than your last purchase...But I prefer low cost inventive or creative solutions ...
@schubert : "A rock concert is more a social event than a musical event"

A very narrow opinion and not one that can be supported with anything but a single opinion.

I’m not a classical aficionado. But I’ve been to a lot of live symphonies in good places, I’ve been to opera in Italy, been to chamber music series at Spoleto, I have friends who are phd’s in violin, piano and organ. And I’ve been to a fair share of live rock and blues shows. And I just don’t get your narrow view.

Nothing wrong with having it. But sharing it doesn’t help anything.

"How else could you get 5k people to wave their hands in unison like a
Nurnburgh rally ?"

I would be surprised if Wagner wasn’t playing AT Nuremberg. In fact, Bruckner was played during some of those rallies.





uber,  A rock concert is more a social event than a musical event .
How else could you get 5k people to wave their hands in unison like a
 Nurnburgh rally ?
The older folks get the more convinced they are they’ve just about closed the gap on Audio Nirvana. Trite but true. 🤗
True , but more alike than different . The money I spent was over 50 years .

All jokes aside , every thing counts, Trite but true .The room is the most important thing . My car gets me caught up in music and the 4 speakers likely cost Nissan less than 10 bucks .I’ve walked into many rooms where the owner spend 20k to get
harsh treble and muddy base down to no avail because it was the room
not his gear !

I’ve always been to lazy to fool with rooms but then I’ve moved around all my life and too old to start now .
My standard joke is I’d rather listen to a 1500 $ speaker with a 5k amp than vice -versa .
The only thing I ever really liked to play with are turn tables . Owned over 100 and at least 200 phono cartridges .Still have 3 in my old age . And run 2 .

I have no idea how easy it is to replicate live classical music. Never been to a classic live event and likely never will.
Would imagine without the vagaries of amplification and mixing desks it might be a little easier than full on rock concerts.

So Schubert take on it might be fairly realistic for him.

For myself I KNOW I have attended more God awfully poor sounding live rock concerts than good ones.

I KNOW I do not want my,music in my room to sound like the majority of rock concerts I have attended ... Lol.

Different horses for different courses.