elate,
Couple of things, what are your room dimensions and budget?
Personally I don’t like to clutter my room with a sub in every corner. So I end up going with pair of mid-level subs from REL. For my room (15’D x 30’W x 8’H), the pair of REL’s (500W ea.) were more than adequate. IMO for two channel audio, the high-level input connection offers far superior system integration of the sub-bass with the main system.
I would recommend you start with atleast two high quality subs and add more later, if needed. Also, is your room acoustically treated or untreated?
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What is your definition of a "lower end sub"? - Is it based on price point?, or performance? Are you looking to augment music or LFE’s What do you hope to gain with 4 subs? why not just two subs? I see the SVS SB1000s have a 12" driver and cost $599 each - have you considered 10", 8" or 6" drivers? My current A/V system sub has an 8" driver and my previous sub was 2 x 6.5" in a push-pull configuration. Both of those subs handled LFE’s with amazing dexterity and detail. Both of those subs had 200 WATT amp built in, and both went pretty deep into the low end. So is a 12" driver really necessary? A well built sub with a 12" speaker would probably require upwards of 400 watts to effectively control a 12" speaker - and around 300 watts to control a 10" speaker I also play bass guitar and the driver in my amp and many other professional quality amps are 10" these days, because they convey greater detail with less power The reason for the smaller driver is the ease with which the amp can control the cone IN BOTH directions. Once you have the subs you have to match it to your other speakers and having four subs will make that process more complex to "get it right" Based on your budget of around 4 x $599 you could do much better with just two subs at @1200 each. One thing that puts me off the SVS SB1000 Sub is that silly little two pin power plug. To drive a long-throw speaker effectively with 300 watts takes considerable current and that little socket is not capable of delivering enough current in the time required. Transient spikes suck A LOT of current Take look at subs like KEF https://www.visions.ca/product-detail/9463/kef_r_series_dual_9_500w_subwoofer_piano_black_high_gloss...Paradigm has a few offerings https://www.paradigm.com/en/subwoofersOr maybe Klipsh https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B00NVPMJNC?linkCode=gs2&tag=dotdashca-20BTW - I haven’t heard any of these subs - but the first two at least have a reasonable reputation for quality and Klipsh are actually brining out some pretty good speakers these days. After all, isn’t QUALITY the REAL GOAL here? Good luck with your choice - Steve |
I know both the Cornwall and Heresy well. Sure, they play really loud - but sound overly bright (and irritating). Lack of bass below 50 hz in both only makes them sound worse! Adding subs will not improve the sound. A pair of Altec Valencia's would be a significant upgrade (had 'em!). A much better-balanced speaker! |
Elate wrote: "I have been reading alot lately about the DBA thing, and without even trying it, I am positive that it will be the best thing for me."
You must be pretty good at wrapping your head around new ideas, because the idea that four subs spread around the room = QUALITY instead of merely QUANTITY is fairly counter-intuitive.
Elac: "... the high level speaker input which I will need for hooking up to my vintage integrated amp..."
It is possible to make a passive "voltage divider network" which would derive a line-level signal from your integrated amp’s speaker-level signal. I assume REL subs have a built-in voltage divider network which performs this function. In other words you are not necessarily limited to subs which have speaker-level inputs.
Elate: " Will 4 lower end subs work for enhancing my system or do I need to go higher up in the chain as far as quality is concerned? "
Assuming your requirements are not exceptionally demanding in SPL capability or low-end extension, you probably don’t need four top-of-the-line subs. The SVS SB2000 looks good to me; imo the SB1000 would probably need EQ.
@williewonka wrote: "What do you hope to gain with 4 subs? why not just two subs?"
Imo the advantage of four subs over two subs is, smoother in-room response. And "smooth bass" = "fast bass". As a ballpark rule of thumb, the more intelligently-distributed bass sources in a room, the smoother the in-room bass. So two subs are potentially about twice as smooth as one; four subs are potentially about twice as smooth as two; and eight subs are grounds for a divorce.
Roberjerman wrote: "I know both the Cornwall and Heresy well. Sure, they play really loud - but sound overly bright... Adding subs will not improve the sound."
Imo adding subs can in some cases significantly improve the sound of bright speakers.
You can think of the tonal balance of a speaker system as a see-saw with the balance point at about 700 Hz. Brightness is a symptom of too much "weight" north of 700 Hz. By adding more "weight" well south of 700 Hz, subs can improve the overall spectral balance.
Subs can’t actually fix problems north of the subwoofer region of course, but if a speaker is good except for a lack of energy in the bottom octave or two, subs can be very helpful.
Imo, ime, ymmv, etc.
Duke
kinda into that four-sub thing
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You can get a doodad to take a high level signal to low level at Best Buy for $50. I did this recently for a desktop system. The thing is aimed at car audio and will be in the car audio installation area. |
Imo the advantage of four subs over two subs is, smoother in-room response. And "smooth bass" = "fast bass". As a ballpark rule of thumb, the more intelligently-distributed bass sources in a room, the smoother the in-room bass. So two subs are potentially about twice as smooth as one; four subs are potentially about twice as smooth as two; and eight subs are grounds for a divorce. IMO - the more "sources" the less detailed the bass gets and it I do not believe it equates to FASTER BASS.either I always found the fewer drives the better - when it comes to HiFi. I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one - sorry Just a differing opinion :-) Regards |
@audiokinesis and @millercarbon Huge +1! |
williewonka,
By cancelling out room nodes, i.e. peaks within the room, the bass decays faster, not to mention you get a more consistent room interaction. Keep mind mind we are talking subwoofer frequencies, i.e. below 80Hz, where you can't tell where the sound is coming from. A smooth frequency response, without room nodes works best, or at least as an alternative to a lot of room acoustic treatment, perfectly positioned speakers (for bass), etc.
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Smaller Tsu Research subs
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Velodyne and SVS are a good match with Klipsch. I was at one time using Khorns front, KLFC7 centre, Hersey II's as rears with a Velodyne FSR18, a true beast back then. |
williewonka, Based on your budget of around 4 x $599 you could do much better with just two subs at @1200 each. Respectfully, I’m not here to argue a point but to offer up a different way of thinking ’out of the box’ to get good bass. The 4 sub SVS SB1000’s would be a killer set up to augment elate’s Klipsch mains as those ’little’ 12 incher’s are quality mechanical devices for producing bass with a good price to performance ratio too. And the SVS SB1000's with the high level speaker input are actually $499 all day long, not $599. https://www.svsound.com/products/sb-1000 elate, The
SVS SB1000's
would take some time to find the right placements in your room but
with
their small size and high level speaker inputs you would have more options and ease of placements.
Read what Duke was gracious enough to write here on Agon: Tyray asked: "Can a customer use their own passive subwoofers of choice?"
You can totally use your subs of choice, active or passive. Here is the amplifier that I use to drive my passive subs, note that it has a single band of EQ and a switchable 25 Hz "bass boost" circuit, which may come in handy with sealed subs:
https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-sa1000-subwoofer-amplifier-rack-mountable--300-811
Tyray: "Or do I have to use AudioKinesis designed passive speakers for best results?"
I think the subs I designed work well for this application, but they are NOT required for good results. I don’t like to make claims like "best results" because in this hobby there is always something better... I’ll only claim "best I know how to make at my price point given where I think the goal posts are."
Tyray: "As I’m trying to understand if you would need to ’customize’ your swarm peripherals, amps, speaker wire, crossovers and any other hardware to work with the subs a customer may propose."
I don’t really "do" custom Swarm systems wherein I don’t at least supply the passive subs, but it’s not rocket surgery. Briefly...
Spread your subs asymmetrically around the room, perhaps with one (but no more than one) in a corner, and bonus points if you can raise at least one sub up off the floor such that it is closer to the ceiling than to the floor.
(If you prefer, you can also use a symmetrical configuration - see Todd Welti’s "Subwoofers: Optimum Numbers and Locations" on Harman’s website.)
Any subs which are fairly far from the main speakers, you want their top ends to be rolled off fairly steeply no higher than 80 Hz, so they don’t betray their locations by passing audible upper bass/lower midrange.
I usually find that reversing the polarity of the sub farthest from the main speakers tends to improve the in-room smoothness, but in a very large or open-floorplan room the result may be deficient in the bottom octave.
If you don’t have test equipment, when setting the controls on your subwoofer amp(s) by ear, the sequence is: First set the level, then the frequency, then the phase. Cycle back through this sequence several times to fine-tune. Credit to master acoustician Jeff Hedback for teaching me what the proper sequence is.
Duke
As it may help you ’wrap your head around’ something that at first does seem counterintuitive, that 4 smaller subs can sound so good. And of course you could also buy one of Duke’s kits, but I do understand the bug to try to do it yourself. |
An F series Velodyne? That was a time when real audiophiles snubbed subwoofers and a substantial improvement over my ULD.
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@williewonka wrote:
" IMO - the more "sources" the less detailed the bass gets and it I do not believe it equates to FASTER BASS.either
"I always found the fewer drives the better - when it comes to HiFi.
"I think we’ll have to agree to disagree on this one - sorry"
Willie, I have NO PROBLEM with agreeing to disagree. Let’s do that.
But I hope you don’t mind if I try to explain myself a bit. Heaudio123 pretty much already said it, but here’s my version:
In the bass region, frequency response peaks take longer to decay than the rest of the spectrum, and therefore are literally and perceptually "slow". Also, the longer it takes for a sound to fade away, the louder we perceive it to be. So not only are the peaks louder, but they hang around for longer. Double whammy. By smoothing out the frequency response in the bass region a distributed multisub system results in much smaller peaks, so we no longer have frequencies which decay significantly slower than the rest of the spectrum. So we no longer have boom, overhang, muddiness from notes taking too long to decay. Hence my statement that "smooth" bass = "fast" bass.
Smooth bass also results in more DETAILED bass because frequencies which linger for longer (those nasty peaks) are what blur subsequent bass notes. The key to clarity in the bass region is how the notes decay - what we don’t want is notes which decay too slowly thereby masking subsequent notes. Bass trapping also addresses the decay of the notes, via a different mechanism. It is not at all obvious that multiple subs and bass traps have this common ground, so let me explain that as well.
According to multiple experts on acoustics and psychoacoustics (such as Floyd Toole and Sean Oliver and Earl Geddes), at low frequencies, speakers + room = a "minimum phase" system. What this means is, the frequency response tracks the time-domain response, and vice-versa. So where there is a frequency response peak, there is slow decay. And where there is slow decay, there is a frequency response peak. The good news is: When we fix one, we have simultaneously fixed the other.
Bass traps absorb energy and therefore reduce the decay time, and the more often a sound wave strikes the bass trap the more it is absorbed by it. This is how bass traps absorb more of bass energy that is decay more slowly (and thus striking it more often), thus smoothing out the in-room frequency response. I’ve already described that a distributed multisub system smooths out the in-room response, but in doing so, it simultaneously improves the time domain response, resulting in more uniform decay times across the bass region. Therefore, counter-intuitive at it may seem, bass traps and distributed multisub systems are working on the exact same problem but coming at it from different angles.
In my experience a distributed multi-sub system usually makes a larger improvement than bass trapping, but there may be situations where the opposite is true. And we can use both.
Like I said, I’m perfectly okay with agreeing to disagree. No need for you to explain your position, but I hope you don’t mind if I explained mine.
Duke |
1 or 2 high quality subs would be better than 4 cheap subs because you would have to deal with inferior crossovers, high distortion amps, and poor cabinet design. This sums up to very poor & inarticulate bass, the exact opposite of what you want for music. I am not sure why your are stacking speakers on top of each other. I would think that this would cause blending issues. I think a single pair of the best set which I believe would be the Cornwalls and 1 or 2 very high quality subs would be the way to go. To get the benefit of the subs, blending and handoff are the key to improvement because you don't want to hear the subs. They should blend so well that you can't locate them. The speakers & subwoofers should sound as 1 functioning unit. Not an easy thing to pull off. Not quite sure how you would connect 4 subs speaker level. It's very easy with RCA's but 4 with speaker level would be a challenge. With a little creativity, I figured out how to connect 3 RELs speaker level with my own system but RELs are a little different because your speakers run full range then you use RELS proprietary crossover to get the perfect blend. I would recommend REL, Martin Logan or JL Audio. Martin Logan is a particular stand out for having Anthem Room Correction, speaker level connections and starting at a reasonable of $650.00 |
You could consider 2 Klipsch KA-1000-THX amps each running dual
KW-120-THX woofers. They can be daisy-chained, and the amps have continuously variable phase control and crossover frequency and a boundary gain compensation control. Could probably obtain the whole kit used for $3-5K, and they'd be a good match with your heritage mains. |
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just look just look at the SVS 3000sb
subwoofer of the year and many awards. For $995 No sub is as good at 2 x that.technologies from their ultra 16
free shipping, 45 day satisfaction return ,and even Free Shipping return
if not totally satisfied I just have 2
,microprocessor controller great app
and 13 inch driver ,tunefull powerfull bass to18 hz .NO competition I sold a $1600 JLaudio sub ,just check it out
no one else offers this 45 day audio ,and at this price ,5 star reviews
and 5 yr warranty.
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I ended up with a pair of REl S3 SHO's and they blend into my system seemlessly. They also work well in home theater. The only other subwoofer I would consider is Rythmik. |
audiokinesis - I thought that was a very succinct explanation. Bass problems seem to me are best fixed slowly over a period of time, with experimentation.
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With a four sub DBA or even a three sub DBA for that matter any decent sub will work. What type of music you listen to and how loud you like it as well as room size will dictate which models would best suit your needs. Any company that manufactures subs should have an in house tech that can help select the correct model for your system, if they don't, I would not buy from that manufacturer.
My personal experience is with SVS, Rythmik and REL and there are many other companies out there such as AudioKinesis and HSU that I have heard good things about from many other sub users.
One extra plug for Rythmik, they offer a couple of different amp options along with their standard option and one of those options has the speaker level input so you can get that input on any of their subs.
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I loved Duke's "eight subs are grounds for divorce." I'm an open baffle bass guy, so GR Research subs are the deal for me. 2 of them would be great. The Audio Kinesis Swarm is awesome but considerably above your budget. Brian Ding's Rythmik subs are fast and articulate. He developed the sensing coil woofer control that is also used in the GR open baffles.
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I agree with the suggestions of Rhythmik... excellent subs in my limited experience.
Duke
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The GR open baffle sub designs are intriguing. The uncolored sound without the box, quick settling time, and the way it loads the room may be the better option but more expensive. I always see GR OB subs flanking the OB main speakers, not in a DBA, but why not in a DBA? The Rythmik G22 dual opposed sub is also tempting, has the least boxy sound (for a box).
The bass array concept makes sense to me as room correction really improves the perceived tightness in bass. Best to start with a smooth room response before calibration.
I've got a Parasound P5 on the way for some bass management, mainly for the high pass to relieve my tube amp from sub 50Hz duty, and reduce all those midrange smearing vibratiions in the lively Tekton DI cabinets.
Integrating a sub without both a low pass and high pass crossover seems tricky. I'll soon find out what a difference a high pass makes.
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Rythmik and SVS are both great. I have a mix of them in my 4 sub setup. Power Sound Audio also makes good subs. Buying internet direct will in most cases get you more bang for your buck. I think Rythmik is the only one that will give you the connection options you want. I don't see where you ever mentioned the room size? Based on your thoughts about getting 4 SB 1000's, is $2000 your budget limit or can you spend more? If you don't have a gigantic room and aren't concerned with pressurizing it, 4 smaller subs could work just fine. You gain a lot of headroom by using multiple subs, meaning that each individual sub doesn't have to work as hard as only one or two would have to in order to produce the same SPL levels. |
Why would you stack Heresys on top of Cornwalls? That in itself has got to cause some weird effects. |
Hi Elate, I would ask that you give Paradigm a chance. Our Defiance Series Subs begin with our V - Series which is made in China starting at $449 Retail for the V-8, but are designed by us in our Factory in Mississauga (Toronto) Canada. Our Defiance X-Series starting at $999 and all subs above are 100% made in our Canadian Factory. Starting at $599 Retail for the V-10, you get the ability to run our most advanced Anthem Room Correction Genesis Software, full App Control from any mobile device with the ability to adjust for phase and polarity as well as many other settings along with optional Wireless Connectivity, which I recommend as a (last resort). You can use the frequency sweep tone in the app and move in 1Hz increments from 20Hz-120Hz finding every vibration and rattle in your room or house and be able to isolate it. Our Quick Measure Tool in Genesis will allow you to find all the peaks and the nulls in the room allowing you to take screenshots of your favorite positions you mark or make note of as you move the sub around the room from position to position so you can go back and compare which spot measured the best. Every Sub we have above $599 can utilize our Genesis Software. Right now, only the Defiance Series has App Control. Again, our Defiance X-Series Woofers and Amps are made in our factory in Canada. All woofers that use our Active Ridge Technology (ART Surround) material which has two US Patents are 100% made in Canada. They are more linear than any other woofer made and that increases output and takes away distortion. https://www.paradigm.com/en/technology-design/patented-active-ridge-technology-art-surround Take a look at these videos of competitor’s woofers and you can see how out of control they are as they look like flags flapping in the wind - you’ll see the rubber surrounds get distorted because they can’t assist in controlling what the cone does. Our surrounds are over molded and literally fused to the cone. You can pull on the rubber and the rubber will tear before it separates from the woofer cone. This is not to disparage our competitors at all because many make viable products, but our X-Series Subs and above simply don’t react like these in the video! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWim_TVjpno&t=54s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErijR3HSa_M The biggest benefit to our ART Surround Technology and main patent we have on it, is that it increases the output of the woofer by +3dB. From and output perspective, that is the equivalent of adding one whole additional driver to the box. All of our Subs that have those drivers is like doubling the number of drivers contained in the cabinet. This may be the single most overlooked and best advancement in woofer technology within our industry in the last 20 years. As big a company as we are, having a 250k sqft. facility where we build 68% of what we sell there, from a marketing standpoint, we still operate like a small company and this technology is widely unknown to most and likely why we tend to get overlooked in so many different categories. When people talk about buying direct over buying from a bigger manufacturer, there is the misconception that direct is always better. Because we build so much in house - we literally build machines to build parts from raw material, it gives us a huge advantage and allows us to bring technological advancements to the forefront that many other companies simply can’t produce, or certainly produce it for what we’re able to. That is what differentiates us from so many of our competitors. I hope that you will please take our products into consideration and give us chance to earn your business. https://www.paradigm.com/en/subwoofers https://youtu.be/tJJtWokUIWk You may find your closest Dealer here: https://www.paradigm.com/en/dealer-locator I always recommend calling Dealers before showing up to find out what they have to demo and of course, the times we’re in now make it more challenging. If you find a Dealer through our Website that you would like to work with, we can always help in regards to an in-home trial if you’d like. Please let us know if we can be of any further help. Thank you for your time! Chris |
You gain a lot of headroom by using multiple subs, meaning that each individual sub doesn't have to work as hard as only one or two would have to in order to produce the same SPL levels.
+1 big_greg |
