“....VPI is at the bottom of my list for turntables. After having met Matt at Axpona last year it would be lower if this were possible....” LOL, JSAutter I am still laughing with your comment.indeed Mat is funny. He usually blames Fedex for the poor design and cheap construction practices of his Tonearms and turntables. I know a guy who has appointed a law office to sue VPI for damage.
I have a TNT, but it has been significantly modified, I machined and added a 0.25" thick MIC-6 AL constrained layer plate to the bottom, and added a 2nd armboard courtesy of a delrin Avenger armboard and it sounds great, but the cost to manufacture and sell today would be close to the $15K HRX. VPI has never said the new model is better at half the price. If a fully loaded Prime is better than an older TNT, then it is the tonearm, but a TNT with fat-board and an AL constraining layer and current motor would be the HRX at nearly $18K. But, the TNT is huge. The TNT and now advanced with the Avenger to easily accept multiple arms, are the tweakers dream, you can start at one level and just keep going up, they really are about your journey. So VPI has tables to match the customers desire, destination, or journey. As an engineer, I appreciate the constant experimenting and never ending changes that Harry with VPI has pushed. While to some it may be a marketing ploy, however, as an engineer I see it as one persons passion that the company has not lost, especially as many of the advances/changes are backward compatible, how many companies offer that within a mechanical prespective. Softwear, yeah today thats easy, try it mechanically - that is is a whole nother relm. But, some changes are just manufacturing efficiency, VPI will tell you that the TNT super platter is just too difficult and expensive to manufacture today. However, I will be the first to admit that if Harry has engineering notebooks documenting all the changes, those are some THICK notebooks.🤔
That's what is said about every new VPI model. What are they up to now, 100 models since the 1980s? How can every model be "new and improved"?
This is my problem with VPI. They keep making new turntables and then 3 years later offer a turntable that's "better for half the price" which would make me feel ripped off. I'm not sure they know what their turntable sound like, but they are a great marketing company. It would be interesting to compare an early TNT to one of these tables.
I am amazed at how many different people had their corn flakes pissed in in such a short time. I had VPI tables prior to my Teres and found them to be good bang for the $$$. And VPI's customer service was very good. That was 9-10 yrs ago. I don't know Mat but the bad mouthing of VPI in this thread is something I didn't expect, especially when no one has heard the TT.
"Granted, 10K (the actual starting price of Rolex’s after sales tax) is high, but the quality of materials, finish, and the built-in-house movement set them apart from all but their very finest competitors. No $800 divers watch with a mechanical movement is master chronometer certified. "
The Rolex is not even close to being worth what they are asking. I had a Submariner, sold it, kept my omega, which has a much better movement. All you have to do is put the two watches next to each other. If you into status symbols, by all means Rolex. If you are into watches, Omega or even a Grand Seiko is a better watch for the money.
I was at CAF, and talked to Harry about this new table. First, its is not an Aluminum-Lucite-Aluminum layer, it is Stainless-Aluminum-Stainless, with the concept being to concentrate the plinth mass close to the Platter. So, the arm-boards, being the same construction while being cantilevered are massively stiff. Machining stainless steel is a whole other league from aluminum. The platter is magnetically coupled and levitated. The motor is not the HW-40, it is is a very different (new) design, with a very low current in-rush. So, this is not some multi- motor belt design, and if you have ever read the of Basis design, you should know of their near heroic efforts just to machine a very high tolerance rubber belt. The coloring is of course quite bold, and has obviously drawn the ire of some. But, from a technical and engineering standpoint, there appears to be a lot going on, but it is not all visually apparent, and to disclose all the details, risks disclosing a lot of intellectual property; a bit of a Catch-22.
My friend and I heard the Clearaudio Statement V2 or another by them which was $120,000 back in 2016 about at a show. We were not impressed. However, I've read reviews that just the center weight makes a huge difference. Maybe, but what we heard wasn't worth it and certainly took up too much real estate.
roxy, from a practical standpoint turntables are all about listening to records. There are much less expensive turntables that are going to do the job better than this thing. If you want to buy a statement turntable I think the Clearaudio Statement is way cooler with its pendulum system. I also think it is just as silly (really do not like the arm.) If it is artwork you are after then buy art. It will probably be worth a lot more in the end. I have a tendency to think these things are all about ego. You see the same sort of behavior with cars.
I gave specific examples of why I rated my own VPI tables as very good but not great. The latest one discussed here may have solved the vibration problem or not. The VPI arm may or may not be lacking in high end qualities, especially in the bass performance. Overall, I've had no trouble with the two tables and VPI 16 RCM once they were set up to maximize their capabilities.
What an odd thing to say. Do super expensive cars give car collectors a bad name? Do super expensive breeds give show pet owners a bad name? My superscout master sounds spectacular with a great cartridge. I happen to find the bling attractive, the candy apple red, black and silver giving it an art deco look. I bet it sounds great and as a conversation piece for incredibly wealthy individuals why not?
Many people would find 5k for a turntable absurd and why aren’t you giving several thousand of that to a food bank?
Yes, I have had two unipivot arms prior to the SME (back in the 1980s). First an Audiocraft then a longer Ultracraft. Good arms but not great arms. One had to dial in the correct amount of damping oil in the trough to use them. I have heard good sound from Graham unipivot arms at shows on ultra expensive tables such as the TechDas. I thought my next arm would be a Tri-Planar or a Thales, but the SME sounds excellent and is still being made and sold with a new SME table.
That is going a little to far sturgus. Audiophiles just can't afford to feed their young. Fleschler that is because the SME and Tri Planar are superior arms in large part because they do not use unipivots.
@mijostyn, I seriously contemplated your suggestion. What's holding me back is that the Zero is not exactly a 'mobile device'. Otherwise I could sell the house to buy it..... ;-).
@mijostyn I agree with your previous post about the competition. I own VPI products including a 19-4 turntable (which had a semblance of isolation with rubber and sprung/spring platform) now used as an excellent 78 rpm turntable. My TNT VI is a good, not great turntable. It sounded mediocre until I put it on a Townsend Seismic Sink a few weeks after purchasing it in 2006. It sound great now. Why can't VPI make good isolated platforms? Their arms don't get me excited either. The SME IV modified I use or my friend's Tri-Planar are superior sounding to a VPI amr. I'd buy a half dozen good turntables before I would buy a Vanquish. The Kronos and Thales look good to me for 1/4 the price of a Vanquish (SME too)!
As was mentioned previously, pushing the envelope is what makes the stuff we can afford better. That there are people out there that can afford it makes advancing the art practical. In reality, if you put the same tone arm and cartridge on a lesser table of high caliber you would probably not be able to tell the difference. IMHO the AF one is elegant the Zero is not. I think it is more complicated than it needs to be. Mr Nichikawa is over reaching. But the press bought it as usual. Michael Fremer in his usual manner spewed praise in the silliest of ways. "This turntable stomped all over every other turntable I have ever heard. It wasn't even close -beginning with blacker backgrounds than I have ever heard from a turntable." The back ground noise on the absolute best pressing is far in excess of even the cheapest modern turntable. It would be like trying to hear a pocket radio standing next to a running bulldozer. The only reasons it is better than his current table are it is much cooler and it cost twice as much. Only 40 of them will be made and 10 are already sold so edgewear you better hurry up and get in line:) Rich people buy stuff that gives the rest of us jobs and in the end better stuff. The time people wast being jealous is the time they could spend making themselves rich and in more ways than financially.
@mijostyn, TechDas is the first company I think of as a design trying to push the enveloppe. With the current renaissance of vinyl playback they gave Hideaki Nichikawa - the designer of top Micro tables like the SX-8000 mk2 - the opportunity to build on his 1980's designs, using modern cutting edge technology and large resources to do it. The AF series is a 21st century incarnation of the Micro tables. The AF I and II are descendants of SX-8000 mk2 and the SX-5000 mk2, while the AF III strongly resembles the RX-1500VG.
But as mentioned before, we're now in the age of hyper capitalism. So TechDas added the AF Zero to their line up. They pulled out all the stops, making the ultimate statement at $400k. They can bring this thing to market, because that market exists in the real world. A pretty sick world if you ask me, but there you are.
Oh, thanks for the correction lewm, right gimbal. Got it. Not envy at all lewm. A practical analysis of the product at hand. The only positive thing I have to say about it is that at least it has a gimbal bearing on the tonearm. I would get a Kuzma 4 point 14 long before I would buy that (actually not a fair comparison because I have a 4 point 14). How about a 12 inch Tri Planar or a Reed 5t or a 12 inch Origin Live Enterprise or an SME V 12. There are so many arms that at just a glance I would go for over that. A SAT arm on a SOTA Cosmos would out perform that and save $60K. As I have said before I could care less what a piece of equipment looks like as long as it is built well and my own choice in turntables reflects that. The only turntable on the market I have the hankering for is the Techdas AF 1 because it is a clever, extraordinarily well built extremely cool, state of the art mechanical device. Will it sound better than my SME 30/12? Probably not, at least noticeable by me. But I am jealous of those that have one. At this moment I have other fish to fry. What I REALLY want is a Mclaren 720S Spider.
I guess it depends on your definition of 'money's worth'. If a person wants a trophy to show off and likes the VPI's idea of good taste, he'll probably have his pride of ownership. That's what this is all about anyway. It's got nothing to do with sound quality per se.
edgewear, you never get your monies worth when you spend 2-3 times as much for an inferior product. However the person who buys one of these would not know the difference. In reality they will sell very few of them because the vast majority of real audiophiles are not that dumb. I just discovered if I place a neodymium magnet 1.004 meters from the spindle on a line through the horizontal bearing of the tonearm the image just snaps into focus:)
Hyper capitalism leads to hyper consumption in just about any consumer product category you care to think of. Actually it's sort of a mystery why it took the audio industry such a long time to tap into this market. Perhaps it's because audio was just a hobby for geeks. But now with the tech revolution the geeks have taken over the planet. So audio has suddenly become fashionable and the industry is savouring the moment.
This might explain the current avalanche of $100k+ audio components. This trend enables cutting edge designers to really push the envelope and develop state of the art products better than anything we've ever heard before. Some of these technological advances will find their way into lower priced derivatives. This is good news for us 'normal' audiophiles.
But the prospect of making huge profits on 'audio trophies for the rich' probably attracts a different breed of 'entrepreneurs' as well. It's these characters that give the industry a bad name. The most obvious category that fell victim has probably been cables.
Vinyl playback has become an expression of excellent taste in trendy circles and the turntable has turned into something of a status symbol. So it's bound to fall victim to these characters as well. They simply go after the money of well heeled trophy hunters who don't have a clue about sound quality. It's painful to watch and it may even be harmful to the industry, which might explain the angry tone of voice in some of the contributions.
I'm not implying in any way that the VPI falls into this category. Most likely it doesn't. VPI has been a reputable manufacturer for many years, even in times when vinyl playback was still on the lunatic fringe. I definitely don't like the 80's red & black styling, but that's a personal call. I have no doubt it will sound great and anyone with the dough who does like this styling will likely feel they get their money's worth.
Insanity on public display in my opinion. It is stuff like this that gives audiophiles a bad name. Now, how many people could afford it, unless it was reviewers getting it on free loan or multimillionaire folks like Trump, who will buy it to show off.
Mijo, That's "gimbal", not gimbal.I can't believe what a bunch of childish responses this thread collected. Yes, most of us, including me, cannot afford the Vanquish, but the reason to jump all over it cannot fairly be based on cost alone. (If it was composed partially of parts done in red but cost $5000 instead of six figures, would that make the choice of red less reprehensible? Are aluminum and lucite, particularly when used together to form a single piece with constrained layer damping inherently bad? If so, say why please. And since none of us can have heard the thing, it seems unlikely that any of the disdain emanates from a place of wisdom. The thing is what it is, and those who have the moolah to buy it will know what they're getting. Here we have mostly expressions of envy in one form or another.
Agree with theophile. There is a market for $100K turntables. It's the same market for $200K speakers, half a million or more in electronics, etc. Ragging on VPI or TechDas or others for building state of the art tables for the wealthy is bizarre. Do you not understand marketing?
Mind you Techdas uses the same principle with the tone arm boards as VPI.(ie cantilevered) and nobody seems to be on a crusade to denigrate their design choice.
VPI is the result of one man's desire to become more involved in his hobby without enough knowledge to make wise engineering decisions, coming up with an array of glitzy sub standard turntables and tonearms. It is what happens when you have more money than you know what to do with I guess. Perhaps the new gymballed tone arm is a sign that this will change under his son's direction? This turntable is a sign that it will not. Putting the Techdas AF 1 through 5 in the same room with this stuff is an insult. It's only fault is that is is not enough better than an SME 30/12 to justify the added expense. But if money were no problem I would certainly go for one just because it is a beautifully made engineering tour de force.
I don't have a TT at this point in my life (nowhere to put a giant system in current house). I do miss my vinyl, but after reading this piece, t's almost a relief to not be in the game...
I know manufacturers do this 6-figure launch thing partly out of a sense of market compulsion, needing to keep up with other big-ticket launches; also the battle to stay visible & relevant (ie, an arms race). Still, it's kind of ridiculous to see stuff like this, particularly when so few younger people want to/can afford to enter the hobby.
Can a 7-figure launch be far away?
I have a sentimental attachment to VPI, because my 1st serious table was one of theirs (in mid-'80s). But this does seem excessive.
At least w/an Aston Martin, I could go to the grocery store & run errands...
@wspohn- That's an interesting point. You can compare the incremental improvement in SQ of this set up, but compared to what? I seriously doubt anyone with a $8K analog front end and $20K total system cost would install this TT into their system and notice any difference at all. You certainly would not put an $800 cart on a $120K TT or listen to it through a pair of $1600 speakers.
I wonder how much of the incremental SQ improvement is due to the uber high end cartridge, cables, pre-amps, amps and speakers connected to this monstrosity? I wonder how it would compare to a TechDas TT or other high end table connected to the same equipment list?
If you are going to ask for a TT to sit beside your new Wilson Chronosonic speakers, that would be the one. Just how much of that price is 'because we can' plus the blingy bits would be interesting.
I have never been a huge fan of their tonearms, but when I asked a local dealer if they supplied arm boards for one of their then higher end tables, that would take a different manufacturers arm (I am a long time SME V fan) they acted as if I had sworn in church.
No doubt the new table will perform very well - but I'd like to see a blind listening test from know reviewers, between it and some of their best top end models like the Avenger. My bet would be that if they didn't know what they were listening to, the increment in performance would be nowhere near the increment in price.
Perhaps it is just me. If I had so much money like Warren Buffet the VPI would be affordable. Affordable is a word that is an oxymoron. I personally would help many people in need and opt for a Lynn Sondek at 10 or $15K and the Lynn would be amazing! 98% of the world's population cannot afford this VPI. Also. The $10,000 interconnects, or the $50,000 speakers, or the $80,000 Electronics to run it. An Audiophile needs much money to collect music. Now, with streamg technology, people like myself with lower income who loves music can have great benefit. We also can enjoy great sound for less than $4,000 Which is a huge investment for us. $$$$ Does not have much for the love of technology and the love for music.
As the owner of a Teres table and Verus motor for over 15 years reading about this VPI and the reaction to it is almost comical. Chris Brady developed a direct drive way back then, and was a lot more open with it leaving little doubt the vast majority of the cost went straight into the hardware. Compared to this VPI where it seems the vast majority of the cost went into the candy apple red paint. I bet you $500 the bearing in my Teres is at least as good.
Then there's the arm. I hear VPI is already working on a 14. Feet, that is.
I mean this thing is a joke. Metal and acrylic, same crap they been using for decades. Different shape, new color, dudes lap it up. That arm board- is it anything other than a hunk of aluminum? I mean okay, maybe it is. I don't know. Honestly just looking at it, knowing what I know about turntables, and VPI, my bet is aluminum. Not that you can't build a really good table with acrylic and aluminum. You can. For this kind of money though, if that's what VPI did, then it goes beyond rip off and shows just how little respect they have for their customers.
Only thing more hilarious, the idea of "findings" as if any of this has anything to do with technology. Hello? See above. 15 years ago. Sheesh. "Findings?" Yeah. As in, wanted to find out how many suckers there are. And that's how many they will build.
cleeds, Thanks for the correction, although I don't think it negates my original point, which I have forgotten now. What VPI DD did I apparently completely miss out on? Because even now I cannot recall their third of 3 efforts in that category. I'm willing to accept that you are correct, however, because I am not a VPI customer. Not that there's anything wrong with that.
The table's projected price does not make sense when you break it down into its components. As VPI has done in the past, sometimes they build a statement product just to see if it can be done and hope to take some of their findings and trickle it down into their "main" production run. Similarly to what they did with their first $30K DD table which spawned a second $15K DD table. Is VPI trying to be like Ford and challenging the Ferrari's of the TT world? I wish any manufacture of niche audio products luck, we need them.
Br3098, The Vanquish is direct drive. Only the second such ever produced by VPI.
On that level, it can honestly be said to be truly new and possibly improved compared to its single antecedent.
The Vanquish is actually VPI's third DD turntable.
Br3098, The Vanquish is direct drive. Only the second such ever produced by VPI. On that level, it can honestly be said to be truly new and possibly improved compared to its single antecedent. You can decide for yourself if you are stunned by it. Or not.
"Or perhaps run with a higher interpolation multiplier?"
I played with the numbers; I couldn't find a solution with the current encoder that didn't produce non-integer results, except with a timing window other than 1 second.
"i assume that they are using encoder interpolation to get the count up to 2560 P/R?"
The encoder ring has 160 poles (80N/80S) spaced every 2mm. This would produce 80 PPR on its own. The pickup interpolates 8x (this is the source of the SDE or subdivision error spec) for 640 PPR. The pickup also synthesizes a quadrature output which doubles the resolution to 1280 PPR. The controller can create a count on both the positive and negative edges of both I & Q outputs so the effective resolution is 2560 PPR. A count of 1423 for 33.333 RPM implies a resolution of ~0.07% (±1 count or 1/1423) and the software reports an error of 1 or 2 counts almost constantly. The software can also measure the rate at which the pulses are incoming (W&F) and reports errors as high as ±10 counts although the test record method does not indicate speed fluctuations this high. It would be helpful if VPI would give some guidance on how they measure a W&F spec 10x better than what is achievable given the hardware configuration.
Funny thing is if they used a slightly smaller encoder ring with 90 poles, it would produce integer results for 33.333/45/78 RPM at 1 sec readings (count=400/540/936).
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
