VPI Fatboys versus others in its' tonearm weight class.

Just an update to mine which is that I'm now completely satisfied with this upgrade which was a 10" JWM uni to a 10" Fatboy gimbal. 

All the textrure and midrange "grittiness" is there now. I guess phono cable burn in is real?!? Whatever happened I don't miss my unipivot at all.

I'm very happy with my TT/Tonearm and cart (Prime Signature / FB gimbal / VDH Crimson) - probably/hopefully for many years.

Agreed, an update here would be nice.

@skyscraper 

So what was the outcome ? Did it ever show up ? Review ? Thanks 

I finally ordered and installed /setup a 10" gimbal FB for my Prime Signature from the JMW 10" 3D Unipivot. I did a quick and easy setup so still have to fine-tune but is about 99% there (I know that 1% can be huge).

Inital thoughts are as follows from in headphones only so far (Focal Stellia), 

Even in closed back HPs, the amount of space around the instruments and imaging is mind blowing. Low end is more full. I read a comment once that it sounded like "more meat on the bones" and I agree with that.

One area that I'm still coming to grips with and may improve once I dial in that last 1% and the tonearm wire burns in is: I listen mostly to classic rock and like my lead electric guitar to sound "searing" - will cut right into you. The gimbal FB has a little less grit / edginess. I also heard this in the keyboards in another (Crazy Diamond) and horns in Savory Truffle. I'm hoping this improves but am thinking this is from going from unipivot to gimbal. 

I'll update again once I have more time with it and dial it in further.

Wow, thanks @antinn . I don't know  how good or not good the Prime Signature feet are but they seem very good. However, if I feel the need for further isolation (or is that decoupling?) then I'd likely purchase a platform from Townshend. I have that on my list anyway but is not a priority. 

As far as speed control - I'm a bit of a newbie (but not new - 19 mos in this hobby) and haven't read up on this and how it affects sound. I cannot hear my records fluctuatiing speed-wise..........or maybe I am. Hmm, will take a closer look at this. I like the idea of hot rodding the table a piece at a time though. Thanks again.

@laynes, 

With your VPI Prime Signature if you do not have speed control of the motor that is still an option.  Most people think the older VPI SDS is better than the current ADS, and VPI has discussed a better version of the ADS for the future, but the cost may be prohibitive if it ever arrives.  With speed control and the new pulley One Speed Pulley (For Use With ADS) – VPI Industries. you can run 2-3 belts all providing better speed control.  If you decide on an SDS wait for one with serial numbers in the 3000 series - these will be the later (newer) versions.  I have not seen any SDS serial numbers above the 3900-series. 

Alternatively, you can have SOTA modify the motor pod to operate with their motor and controller - Total Eclipse Package – Sota Turntables.  The general consensus is that the SOTA is the better motor and its controller is the old Phoenix Engineering's Falcon PSU and Roadrunner Tachometer | Analog Planet.  VPI has been 'threatening' to manufacture a better motor for many years but nothing as of yet.  I run the SDS and two belts and for now I am content with the performance.  

Beyond motor speed control, the other upgrades can get pretty expensive:

-The single-motor flywheel $1.5K Single Motor Flywheel – VPI Industries.  

-The Avenger pneumatic feet four for $4.45K, Avenger Pneumatic Feet – VPI Industries - if you floor vibration problems.  But at this price, other options to solve floor vibration problems are available.

- There is the (I think its ~$7K) 25-lb magnetic drive plater - it should fit the Prime Signature just check with VPI but at this point a new table 'may' be a better option.

The benefit of the VPI tables is the ability to incrementally upgrade the table.  

Thanks Antin. I had see the first link but not the second. I have now added a Fatboy to my "list". Maybe someday I'll upgrade my Prime Signature but I'm pretty happy with it for the most part and hope to be more so after the Fatboy. I'm thinking the next step up will be a significant increase in $$$, no matter which brand it is.

@laynes 

Are you familiar with these two reviews:

VPI Fatboy - Positive Feedback (positive-feedback.com)

VPI 12-inch 3D Fatboy Tonearm - Positive Feedback (positive-feedback.com)

I recently upgraded from a 12-inch 3D to 12-inch Fatboy, and my experience is consistent with the reviews above using Soundsmith cartridges - Boheme and Paua.

VPI ownership is enjoyable ONCE the setup is optimized.

Unipivot or gimbal, they're not examples of SOTA engineering.

With proper supporting equipment-cartridge/phonostage AND a clean LP, most ears will hear what it's designed to do-play a record at a respectable level compared to an uber $etup.

The best upgrade for a VPI owner is opening the wallet a little wider for a different brand.

Happy VPI Classic owner (11 years)

Thanks Fsonic. I also have a VdH Crimson and go back and forth between that and my Hanna Red. I have heard that the aluminum arm wasn't very good and I have the 3D arm now but wondering if the $4,500 Fatboy is a significant (enough) improvement. I've ready mostly good but a few blah reviews. I'd move to a Gimbal but am also ok with my/a unipivot.

Your post is also applicable because I have thought about waiting to upgrade my table and then do an arm then but I am at the end of this $$$ run over the past few months so that would need to be a 2024 purchase probably. That said, I'm not unhappy with my Prime Signature.

I did the VPI upgrade route too starting with a VPI Classic with unipivot 10.5 standard arm and ending up with a Prime with 3D arm before moving away from VPI. I did feel that the printed arm was significantly better than the aluminum arm, both of which were unipivot.

My next move was to have Greg Metz rebuild my Thorens TD124 with custom bearing and platter and mount a Reed 3P arm on it. This is where I came to believe that the tonearm has a tremendous role in ultimate SQ. There was a huge leap up in sound quality-more meat to the bones, more integration of sound, just better music, all using the same cartridges that had been in my stable-Benz Gliders and Ortofons. Since then I have gone up in the cartridge tier ranks with a VdH Crimson Strad and Lyra Etna Lamda. Then I added a Greg Metz Garrard 301 with upgraded bearing and platter and with Reed 3P and now I am off the upgrade path for good (as it pertains to drives/tonerams). 

I have mixed feelings about VPI. They are good in a lot of ways and have shortcomings. The tonearm designs are not up there with the best, but that is just my humble op. 

@skyscraper , how do you like your Fatboy? 

Any other comments about going from a JMW 3D tonearm to a Fatboy? Thanks.

OP,

I just had @mglik over to hear the differences in my system… which were ARC 160s to monoblocks, Added AudioQuest Hurricane (he got one as well… so understands it’s impact), and the tonearm and sub chassis upgrade to the Linn.

I think he will 100% agree (hopefully he will jump in) with my description of the change in my system. But to me it is a smaller change in sound quality. He really likes analog… his impression was of a bigger difference than mine. To me the character between the two are so similar that the increase in detail and air are relatively small… to him, much larger. He felt the analog character came through more. 

It is fun to discuss the subtitles of different sounds.

Will do. Thanks,

Mike

Hi Mike @skyscraper Either way, best of luck. Report back when you're sorted.

Noromance, you’re no doubt correct, but it shouldn’t make much difference in my case knowing to know which is doing what, as it’s highly doubtful I’ll ever be upgrading these components again. I’m just hoping together they make a significant improvement, that is if the Lyra Kleos ever comes in from Japan to actually find out.

I’ve been waiting 4-1/2 months now for delivery. Anybody else order one of these and had to wait so long? I found one comment online about someone waiting six months for another Lyra cartridge. This is definitely trying my nonexistent patience.

Mike

It looks like you're moving two items at the same time—the arm and the cartridge. You'll never know what component is making the most significant improvement. Not best practice.

There is more variation between cartridges than between arms so you're better off putting yr money into trying a different cartridge. 

I have a VPI TNT 1 with 9" JMW Memorial arm. Then Upscale got me with a sale on the VPI Avenger with printed arm. This was the top arm a few years ago. Two decades of turntable evolution and I couldn't hear any difference using a Benz LP. Much bigger improvement switching from the LP to a Gullwing. There is no body like no body. The Gullwing combined the ethereal transparency of the Clearaudio Goldfinger with the rich sound of the LP. The best of both worlds - and cheaper!

*  Lumi and Manley Steelhead phono stages.

No experience with Fatboy or Lyra but my datapoint chimes with what another poster said about VPI having a house sound.

Also have a Clearaudio Panzer with Universal and TT5 arms. And a Versa 1.2. In my observation more variation between cartridges than arm/turntable.

OP,

Upgrading my Linn Akito to Ekos SE (and to Keel sub chassis) was notable with increases in detail, air, and solidity. No change in character (good). I am very happy with the change. My dealer / friend thinks it is one of the best analog ends he has ever heard… the particularly synergistic combo of the Linn / Koetsu and the Audio Research Ref 3 phono stage is what pulls it ahead. While I have heard more detailed systems… the combination of detail and musicality is captivating. I am actually listening to the Blues Brothers vinyl album. The blues are so engaging.

It took the level of performance from parity with my digital end to an increment above. This is the hard thing to communicate. To me, well worth the incremental investment of $5K or ~10% the cost of my analog end or or 3% the cost of my system. It really allows my system to reach to another level… but doesn’t leave my digital end behind. I think this is because the variability of recording quality fluctuations are greater than the difference between the analog versus digital end. So, a great recording on the digital rig will still sound better than a typical recording on the analog end.

However, if I pull out a 1957-60 jazz recording on vinyl and time stops… I  get goosebumps on my arms, chills up and down. Definitely capable of spiritual inspiration.. I have a lot of albums from that era, in pristine condition.

Ghdprentice, Congrats on your new tonearm. Glad to hear you’re getting some real enjoyment out of your upgrade. What differences have you experienced listening to your records with the new Ekos SE arm installed?.

That’s a lot of records you have. I think I’ve maybe up to 1500 LP’s, but rarely buy any anymore, since used CD’s are some much more reasonably priced and usually in pristine condition, unlike used vinyl.

I’m hoping the Lyra Kleos cartridge will be in by the end of May so I can take a listen to how it will sound on the Fatboy.

Stringreen, I hope the Fatboy sounds better than what you describe. I’d hate to have wasted the thousands it cost. Most reviewers and Audiogoners have indicated it should be a significant upgrade over the 10.5 arm, but the proof will be in the pudding. We’ll see.

Mike

No...going from the 10.5 to the Fatboy is not a huge improvement....perhaps Fatboy was properly adjusted.   The Fatboy sound is just different...not better (but everyone has their taste).  To get the 10.5 arm closer to the sound of the Fatboy, there is the 2nd pivot for about 100 dollars or so that I am using a is certainly worth the little expense and trouble to set up.

OP,

Looking forward to hearing your impressions of your new tone arm. A couple weeks ago I received my upgraded Linn arm for my LP12, Akito ($2.8K) to Ekos SE ($5.6K). Wonderful upgrade. I have to admit it is really helping me enjoy my vinyl (2,000 albums). 

Todd, thank you for sharing your experience with your gimbaled Fatboy. I hope my results are as good as yours.. I’ll listen for the qualities you describe when the Lyra Kleos cartridge finally arrives. The Fatboy is already at the dealer who’ll be doing the installation and set-up once it does. I’m not going to attempt to set it up with my current cartridge first.

I looked into the Soundsmith Pau you have but it was unfortunately not compatible with my Luxman’s 507uX Mk2’s integrated amp’s built in phono stage setting. VPI indicated the Lyra Kleos wihich does match would by compatible. I read VPI has used Lyra carts to demo products at shows. 

I hear you on the issue of not trusting your hands when placing and removing the tonearm/cart on a record. I hate that process too, as I notice a decrease in fine motor control at age seventy. Taking the arm off a record after it is done playing is much less nerve wracking though since I acquired a "Little Fwend" tonearm lift.

Mike

I recently went from a Classic 3 with the 3D tonearm & dual pivot to a Classic Signature with the gimbal Fatboy and heard a significant difference with my Soundsmith Paua Mk II. It is significantly quieter in the grooves with less chatter. I had the HW 40 feet on the Classic 3 as well (plus it sits on a Symposium) and attribute most of the difference to the tonearm. I noticed improvement across the frequency band with low and mid-bass being the most noticeable change. Mid-bass is more three dimensional. Cymbals have more shimmer and there seems to be more space between the instruments/notes. 

As I get older my hands get a little shaky sometimes which makes me nervous when playing records. Even if the gimbal Fatboy is not quite as good as the unipivot with the dual pivot I see myself enjoying the turntable more with the gimbal tonearm. 

As others have said matching the cartridge to the arm is vital but you also need to consider matching the cartridge to your phono stage. The Paua and my Modwright PH9 X seem to be an exceptional match. 

@Skyscraper will you install the Fatboy now and have the dealer assist when your Lyra comes in? Using the Fatboy with your current cartridge should really highlight the differences between tonearms. 

I hope you'll enjoy your upgraded turntable!

Badgerdms. I’ll keep you posted here. The Fatboy has come in at the dealer, but I’ve still probably a couple more months before the Lyra Kleos finally gets here from Japan. Then I’ll have both installed by the dealer and be able to report something to you all.

Glad to hear you had good results with your choices. How did your Pure Harmony setup compare with what you had with the VPI Classic 1, and what cartridge and arm did you have on the Classic 1 if you don’t mind my asking? My Classic 2 is so new to me, and such a major purchase after 40+ years with my old Bang and Olufsen Beogram 4002, I couldn’t bear even thinking of swapping it out, though you might have made a wiser choice by doing so.

Mike

I'd be interested to hear your impressions with the new arm all set up and after some time listening.  I had a Classic 1 and decided to get out rather than chasing up the VPI line (to be fair, I already owned two and was looking for something different).  I went over to a Pure Fidelity Harmony w/Acoustic Signature arm and love it, but am really interested to hear about the path that I did not take but considered.  

Bsion I'll be sending my JMS tonearm in on trade tomorrow towards the Fatboy. purchase.  The trade-in certainly helps defray the cost. Hope you can get one for yourself sooner, rather than later. Good luck with that. 

Mike

Slaw,

You are correct, my principal cartridge on the HW40 these days is a Hyperion.  Sorry.

Bill

Did you have to wait a while to get your Lyra cartridge when you purchased yours? The seller was guesstimating three months to be built and shipped from Japan, but another person online said he had to wait five.

FYI Music Direct and Elusive Disc have the Kleos (0.5mV) in stock. I’m on my second Delos, the first from MD and the second from ED who took my old Delos in trade credit. Thanks for this thread, I too am looking at going to a Fatboy gimbal.

Andirocks, thanks for that info.. Once the Kleos comes in I’ll wait a bit before posting here how its sounds.

Tablejockey,  Its too bad that when you spend twice as much you usually don't get twice as goog with most equipment upgrades. Diminishing returns set in quickly with this hobby. I bet your Kiseki Blue sounds real nice though. I'll have to look that cartridge up.

Mike

"what cartridge and arm do you have on your Classic?"

skyscraper -

presently using a  $2 Kiseki Blue. Prior to that used  the popular Audio Technica ART9.

In the grand scheme of things/context of my overall system, The KB is a good performer but I hear the ART9 as a better value. I don't hear a 2X the cost "better sound" This is naturally  subjective and system dependent. Fortunately, the KB was purchased at a significantly le$$ cost.

Perhaps a gimbal arm upgrade would bring out more from the KB. It's a reminder our hobby is just a matter of opening the wallet wider.

Looks like your dealer is doing a very detailed setup. I will be looking forward to you impressions.  

The wire in your new tonearm will have a break in period which may take a while.

It's my understanding Lyra cartridges take somewhere between 50 - 100 hours to settle in.

Tablejockey, I’d like be able to watch how he does the setup to see what can be learned, I will note the brand protractor as you suggest, and if possible, see how he does the alignment. He mentioned he uses a computer program during the set-up process, so that would be interesting. I did the set-up on my current tonearm and cartridge, but have no idea if it could have been done better.

If you haven’t mentioned it already and I've shamefully forgotten, what cartridge and arm do you have on your Classic? I’ll let you know here once the Lyra Kleos comes in how it sounds in tandem with a Fatboy, compared to the current Ortofon 2M Black on my JMW 10.5i. tonearm. Hopefully the improvement will justify the cost and be worthy of some envy.

I need to find out how long the Lyra Kleos takes to break in or begin to start sounding as it should. My Magico A3’ speakers sounded just awful the first few times they were used. Luckily they blossomed shortly thereafter, and relieved the equally awful feeling in the pit of my stomach. Does anyone know if tonearms have to break in as well? I can’t imagine why that might be, but that doesn’t mean it’s not the case.

Mike

"dealer selling me the Fatboy will be doing the installation and setup once the new Lyra Kleos arrives, so I’m in luck there."

skyscraper-

You may want to make note of what alignment method  dealer is using, along with brand protractor for reference. You can then do a future setup yourself.

I'm a little envious- would love to put a Lyra/Fatboy on my Classic. 

Bill, will do, and thanks.

Mike

Hey Bill, I believe you meant to write, Hyperion, for your cartridge.

Mike,

Congratulations, may you derive great joy from your new arm and cartridge.  Please keep us posted once you are up and running.

Bill

Tablejockey- luckily the dealer selling me the Fatboy will be doing the installation and setup once the new Lyra Kleos arrives, so I’m in luck there.

Stringreen, I think the gimbaled Fatboy will bolt on with a single nut into the hole where the unipivot point currently resides, once removed. So it should be quite simple to install..

Below is a VPI Youtube video on how this is done for anyone's reference. The simplicity of this install was a big reason I ended up choosing the Fatboy. Videos like this are computer age equivalents to the "Volkswagen Repair for Idiots" book that got me through four years of college with my '59 Beetle. 

When I got my VPI arm, they also sent me a metal guide that when placed on the spindle, the exact placement of the 3 attachment screws of the arm was accurate and obvious.  There is no hole to drill.

We are gonna be on  this planet  only once(depending on you beliefs.)

You deserve getting what you want. Enjoy the beautiful music once it's setup.

Looks like a very simple installation.  Get a decent jig if you don't already have one.

There are plenty of what's "best" threads for more confusion on that.

Thanks mijostyn. I’m thinking you made a good recommendation on the Lyra Kleos cartridge from the research I did. Hopefully the gimbaled Fatboy will nicely complement it, even though it might not measure up to the quality of your tonearm.

Did you have to wait a while to get your Lyra cartridge when you purchased yours? The seller was guesstimating three months to be built and shipped from Japan, but another person online said he had to wait five. At least the Fatboy should get here quickly as it’s only coming from VPI in New Jersey. With any luck the. Kleos will be here June 1.

Did it take long for your Lyra to break in once you started using it? One thread here claimed it took 50-100 hours for an MC cartridge to fully do so.

Mike

@skyscraper , bankruptcy court is Alcoholics Anonymous for audiophiles. When your wife complains tell her it's better than buying prostitutes. My newest trick is threatening to buy a motorcycle. No, really you are in for a treat. Mike

Took the plunge today. One gimbaled VPI Fatboy is now on order. Hopefully it will sound great coupled with a Lyra Kleos cartridge also on order. What a splurge to get both. See you all in bankruptcy court. 

Thank you all for your advice, encouragement and occasional lambasting. Couldn't have figured out what to do without your guidance over three threads. I learned a lot in the process 

Mike. 

Honestly I would be shocked if VPI would produce an expensive arm like the Fatboy and have it perform at a level appropriate with the price. No reputable company would… and high end audio is highly competitive. But the user community is highly varied in skill and experience.

Thank you Bill, that's encouraging to hear. Glad yours' has been reliable too. So many products aren't,

Mike

I have a Fatboy on my HW40.  It is a very good arm.  The previous Prime had two arms, a 3D with the Unipivot and a metal arm.  They were good too, but the Fatboy is better than either.  Easier to set up, greater clarity and depth.  The principal cartridge has been an Experion.  I can't fault the sonic performance of the HW40 with Fatboy, which is quite satisfactory.  It gets a lot of use and has proven to be reliable too.

Lewm, if the consensus was the Fatboy performs way worse than other cartridges in its’ price range, then i would reconsider going that direction. That’s why i started this thread. I do appreciate you and others taking your time to make suggestions to help me figure out the best way to proceed.. Thanks again,

Mike

Ok. 

Mijostyn and lewm . For the reasons mentioned a few posts back, I’ve decided not to perform any major or minor surgery on the turntable to install another tonearm. I will instead wait until I feel comfortable budgeting the resources to purchase the gimbaled VPI Fatboy, which drops right into the current tonearm’s base as an upgrade..

Although it would be easy for either of you to do otherwise it this was your turntable, it’s more involved than I’d like to get. I do most things on a DIY basis, right down to building my own home, but I’m not going to mess with this. In any event this thread is about how the VPT Fatboy performs relative to other tonearms in it's price range.

Mike

Spindle to Pivot. If VTA tower is centered over the pivot point then measuring to the center of the VTA tower is ok. Measure in the plane of the platter surface.