Sorry. Long post. I hope you find the premise interesting and useful. And hope my writing below is not too bone-headed. Please feel free to correct or point out any misstatements or errors in my thinking.
This is not intended to be a controversial thread. At the outset I am not staking out a position. My questions are sincere and are not intended to poke anyone in the eye. The ultimate focus of my question has to do with the performance of vintage tubes as they compare to current production tubes. I am asking because it seems to me that there is a lot of marketing hype & perhaps some myth and wishful thinking when it comes to vintage tubes. There is also a rich body of collective experience. And, it seems, consensus that certain brands, factories, vintages and specific types of tubes are better than their peers and are "worth" the extra money they command. Of course, the principle of diminishing returns applies here. Right?
Do measures of voltage gain, transconductance, plate resistance, noise and microphony tell the whole story? Are they sufficient for predicting performance? To what extent do they predict longevity? Or is longevity primarily a function of empirical collective experience? What about the materials science aspect of vintage vs. modern tubes?
It seems that every company that produces tubes works hard to refine their design and balance innovation with "faithfulness to the vintage design", production processes, materials to make good sounding tubes. Even so, not all tubes from a given factory will perform the same, hence the testing and grading relative to the measures above and the consequent sorting into hierarchies of ascending levels of performance and price.
It also seems to me that performance will be closely tied to the circuit design and execution. A solid design would, it seems, be robust and produce excellent results with a wide range of tubes. A poor design might drive a tube in a way that is hard on the tube or requires a very specific technical characteristic for the circuit to perform well. Either of these situations could cause a user to come to completely different conclusions about what vintage/modern tube is "good" or excellent.
I have read some posts on this forum from certain individuals in which all "modern" or current production tubes or tubes produced by certain countries are dismissed out of hand. This seems like prejudice. Or it could, I suppose, reflect accumulated frustration with a given tube/brand/maker/etc as it performs in a given circuit.
I suppose I’m ultimately asking those who’ve more experience and who have invested more $$$ in tubes and tube rolling across various kinds of equipment to share their experience and opinions.
Thanks, in advance, for your patience. I hope to learn from those who are willing to share.
I’ll address a couple of your thoughts. Yes, performance, sonic signature, and longevity will be closely tied to the circuit design and execution.
Test results are important in predicting performance. But, we need to define performance. If you mean, will the tube last a long time, supply the required voltage, and have no emissions, then the answer is measurements are very important. If performance means that this tube will be sonically to your liking in a particular component and have the signature described by others, the only way to know is try it.
It’s true, not all tubes from a given factory will perform the same, although tolerances were very close and QC was adhered to. Keep in mind, most manufacturing in the 1940’s and into the 50’s was for the military. There was a high level of quality and consistency. Some tubes were "ruggedized" with extra support rods and micas. They were solely for military use. Other plants made their house brand of tube(s) and had defense department contracts. Tubes were tested and if they met the military’s specs, they were stamped with military codes such as JAN, W, CV, or VT-231. Tubes that were outside milspec parameters were stamped with the proper designation for that tube such as 12AX, AU, 6SN and were distributed for civilian needs. For our purpose, which is audio, tube factories produced an incredibly consistent product which will have its unique sonic signature when installed in a particular circuit. This is where the conversations and debates about tube rolling come into play.
Oh yeah, new tube manufacturers may be copying the design and tooling of some of the vintage tubes. There's an important element missing, the materials used back in the day. Some were closely guarded secrets, some of the materials aren't available, or they can't figure out what was in the special sauce that made such high quality tubes. I know one of the new production companies bought the gear that was used by Telefunken (I think). Correct me if I'm wrong.
One of the BIGGEST myths that is prevalent today is that " science, technology & empirical evidence..." have all the answers. It Doesn’t! The title alone comes from that very thought. Whether you actually believe it is yet to be seen. But it is interesting how you juxtapose science, technology & empirical evidence against marketing, myth & hype as if science, technology & empirical evidence have none of that. Meanwhile those who tell us to trust the science have little or no scientific enquiry to back up their daily propaganda.
Please pardon my skepticism. You may indeed be looking for TRUTH. But truth is ascertained by the use of intellect AND the use of our senses which give the intellect the necessary information for what we hear, see, small, etc. Then there is the idea that FACTS & Science give us very little usable info until they are interpreted. And there is the rub. Who’s interpretation shall we use? Especially pertenant in any conversation about music & hearing which is among the most subjective subjects on the planet.
I doubt this is what you expected. But it is worth considering. This is especially true of scientific enquiry into subjective subjects and expecting hard and fast facts. That ain't happening
Vintage tubes were likely produced in much higher quantities, tubes used in nearly every electronic gadget and the war effort. Mass production likely meant more experienced workers producing them and perhaps higher quality control. Durability also extremely important, lots of competition, less durable tubes would be exposed, lose out in marketplace. Add better raw materials in some cases.
Production runs today likely miniscule in comparison, standardization may be harder to achieve. Durability may also be less of a factor for marketplace, with small production runs lack of durability may not be exposed for a long period of time. And today's production tubes are generally only used in audio equipment, not run 24/7 as many tubes had to back in the day.
One thing I was hoping to tap into here with my original post was this (quoted from above)...
"There is also a rich body of collective experience. And, it seems, consensus that certain brands, factories, vintages and specific types of tubes are better than their peers and are "worth" the extra money they command..."
Let me be, perhaps, a little clearer in explaining what I'm thinking. I think it takes years of experience to really know your way around vintage tubes. Without that experience we're relying on others to guide the way. Isn't that one of the purposes of this Forum? To share our experience?
It seems to me that the names of certain trusted sellers of vintage tubes come up over and over again. Such as Vintage Tube Services, Brent Jesse and Upscale Audio (who also sell current production tubes). These guys have a lot of experience. And there are a few trusted sellers on ebay. Then there are sellers who are simply ignorant. And there are sellers who are willfully deceptive or dishonest.
I was hoping to hear stories from experienced listeners, about which tubes really delivered the goods and which tubes ultimately proved disappointing.
"Instead of writing this post you should buy some tubes, compare them, and decide for yourself."
jperry's suggestion sums it up. This is audiophoolery-just try something.
Read the particular tube user reviews. Like everything else, it may or may not align with your actual experience. The ol YMMV prevails with tube experimentation.
Do measures of voltage gain, transconductance, plate resistance, noise
and microphony tell the whole story? Are they sufficient for predicting
performance? To what extent do they predict longevity? Or is longevity
primarily a function of empirical collective experience? What about the
materials science aspect of vintage vs. modern tubes?
The book specs, to which tubes have to adhere, don't tell the whole story. There is science to the construction of tubes and its also a bit of an art. A guy on the assembly line could tell if the getters were being over-fired and could adjust things to correct for it. Most of those people are retired or passed on so the tube people in the business now have to reinvent the wheel. For example the Russians are still after all this time having troubles making small signal triodes that don't have microphonic problems and grid contamination problems leading to rejections and early failure. The Chinese OTOH often over-fire their getters which damages elements in the tube decreasing reliability. We've seen poor cathode coatings which flake off like old house paint, causing the power tubes to be susceptible to arcing.
Vintage tubes were simply built to higher standards.
Let me be, perhaps, a little clearer in explaining what I'm thinking. I
think it takes years of experience to really know your way around
vintage tubes. Without that experience we're relying on others to guide
the way. Isn't that one of the purposes of this Forum? To share our
experience?
It is.
My experience is, yes tubes do sound different. It should be obvious they are not all the same, if only for the simple fact sometimes one blows out while another one of the same type and brand and age runs for years. They all pass the same QA measurement tests so that should tell you all you need to know about the efficacy of measurements. This much is all obvious as can be and so it remains a mystery why anyone still wonders about such things.
This does not mean there are no physical properties might that account for the superior performance of certain tubes. The most experienced and knowledgeable man I know on the subject, Raven Audio's Dave Thompson, told me he heard from an engineer who worked at the factory where some of his most cherished tubes were made that the equipment used then pulled a vacuum 20% greater than today.
So there are reasons, and let me know the next time you see the inches of mercury vacuum stat on a tube.
Even then I would have to say that is just one on a very long list of factors. Tubes are a connosseur's game. Reliable information is so hard to come by that I gave up years ago. Until learning about Raven and Dave. Now thanks to Dave I know whatever I buy will indeed be well worth the extra. Just last night I swapped out a TungSol and moved some of Dave's around to the rows he recommended, and immediately experienced extension, nuance, and real live emotion like it was a whole new amp.
These are tubes collected from a lifetime of searching and comparing. This transforms tube rolling from a crapshoot to just about the easiest and most rewarding thing around. All you have to do is buy a Raven amp. The stock of these NOS wonders is limited, and when they are gone they are gone. He only sells within the Raven family. So there you go.
@markusthenaimnut, as you already mentioned, the following tube sellers effectively mitigate the risk of purchasing vintage tubes. They also will provide recommendations based on your component(s). They are worth repeating.
I have used all the above and can recommend them without hesitation. I would avoid E-Bay sellers, unless you either know them through personal experience, or through a trusted referral.
@tvad and Ralph who actually engineers some of the finest tube gear on the planet, have it correct as do others who mention reputable experts who do also sell Tubes. Andy is a gem, have a look at his Arsenal of test equipment and his listening skills superb. Also consider the genius of Roger Modjeski ( rip i miss him ) and RAM tubes. One point being, there is more to nos and new tubes than just newly discovered Raven. For example the particular genius of Jim White of Aesthetix. While the use current production tubes with extra grading far and above final factory QC, they point customers to Vintage Tube for upgrade help. i could go on….
I helped build some of the most advanced and powerful tubes in orbit above earth, i can assure you it is a high precision business requiring very tight process control and quality ALL along the way. RAM tubes undergo some of the most rigorous testing, however lint in the tube ( contamination ) plagues many modern tubes.
Scarcity is not diminishing returns
Many designers ignore the RCA tube design manuals at peril
Some designers and firms have a culture of designing for tube longevity two that instantly come to mind McIntosh ( under Gordon Gow ) and Music Reference. There are more.
also for the OP, it helps IF you focus on tubes deployed across your system. My reference system , with various input path contains 25 tubes…..ah which to work first ?
It would take a lot of reading and trial and error over years to become an expert on tubes. Apparent differences between the really good ones and so so tubes can be minor..
Asking for recommendations on this forum or others will usually result in recommendations of numerous different tubes
I recommend you talk to Andy or Brent (Upscale is no longer recommending tubes from what I've read here), decide who you like working with better, decide what changes in sound you want to hear from new tubes, take their recommendations and try a few of them yourself to determine what works best for you.
Talking to the manufacturer of your gear can also be a good way to find out what works in that gear.
Am I right in thinking that RAM doesn't manufacture their own tubes but rather rebrands (highly) selected examples from elsewhere? Any idea re. OEM for RAM?
visit the website but in short ( pardon the pun ) they are extreme graders and matchers of tubes others manufacturer. i think at one time they had some NOS Seiman EL34
I scratch my head at some of the things written by tube “experts.” I have been using tubed audio equipment since 1976. I used to change the tubes out in my preamp and amp every year because the sound started degrading immediately, losing slam and impact. The differences became really apparent after a year of daily use. Yet I read about burning in and buying very old used tubes at extremely high prices. As a scientist, I really don’t get the cryo business with tubes, either.
I have a lot of experience with 12AX7’s. Dutch Amperex used to be my fav tubes, I always found the Telefunkens “dark” sounding in my Marantz7C and AR SP6B. But I have to say that new production tubes out of Eastern Europe and even China (RAM tubes from 2 decades ago) sounded pretty good. I now run 6NS7 in my two preamps and have liked both the Tung Sol and Electro Harmonix varieties.
op, some good discussion on your post already - let me add my 2c to your points...
Q -- "And, it seems, consensus that certain brands, factories, vintages and specific types of tubes are better than their peers and are "worth" the extra money they command. Of course, the principle of diminishing returns applies here. Right?"
A -- yes, definitely and brent jesse’s writings and pricing of various brands on his website regarding the several common hifi audio tubes such as 6dj8, 12ax7/au7, 5ar4 detail this notion in spades
Q -- "Do measures of voltage gain, transconductance, plate resistance, noise and microphony tell the whole story? Are they sufficient for predicting performance?"
A -- necessary, but not sufficient (most common tube testers do not test the tubes in their full range of function), especially power tubes
Q -- "To what extent do they predict longevity?"
A -- only modestly well, to poorly sometimes, to the frustration of both seller and buyer
Q - "Or is longevity primarily a function of empirical collective experience? What about the materials science aspect of vintage vs. modern tubes?"
A - yes longevity is experiential on the part of the tube maker, and design, but also very much a function of the quality of materials used and screening done at the factory -- both were done a good bit better at the prime of tube production decades ago, rather than today, where much knowledge and experience has been lost and is being relearned, as mentioned in earlier posts - still, a learning curve, climbed again, is still a learning curve
Q -- "It seems that every company that produces tubes works hard to refine their design and balance innovation with "faithfulness to the vintage design", production processes, materials to make good sounding tubes. Even so, not all tubes from a given factory will perform the same, hence the testing and grading relative to the measures above and the consequent sorting into hierarchies of ascending levels of performance and price. "
A -- correct, there are youtube videos on tube making factories... watch those... you will understand -- screening and testing is key -- also as a tube making business, your production process quality and control is absolutely key, as rejects consume time and materials and do not yield sales revenues
Q -- "It also seems to me that performance will be closely tied to the circuit design and execution. A solid design would, it seems, be robust and produce excellent results with a wide range of tubes. A poor design might drive a tube in a way that is hard on the tube or requires a very specific technical characteristic for the circuit to perform well. Either of these situations could cause a user to come to completely different conclusions about what vintage/modern tube is "good" or excellent."
A -- correct - yes but in the day, we learned about how common tubes would perform in a variety of circuits and applications... everything was using tubes
"I have read some posts on this forum from certain individuals in which all "modern" or current production tubes or tubes produced by certain countries are dismissed out of hand. This seems like prejudice. Or it could, I suppose, reflect accumulated frustration with a given tube/brand/maker/etc as it performs in a given circuit."
A - such broad dismissals are usually based in prejudice, not fact, or based in old knowledge -- for example early chinese tubes were just terrible, in quality and in sound, but that was 20-30 years ago, they are trying to make a business work, so they improve and improve ... many of us have experiences over time, and in many many circuits, it becomes known certain circuits are hard on tubes, expose shortcomings sonically or in longevity quickly, but a bad tube is a bad tube and will show in many circuits over time - microphony is a trait that is exposed quickly, well before a tube actually ’fails’ to function
hope this point by point reply helps some, i tried to keep it pithy - will not get into my personal opinions of what tubes are good and poor, from where, where the sweet spots on the various tube type value curves are etc etc... that would be a book
You can go at the problems from another angle: how much does an equipment design demand of each tube? One reason I bought a Quicksilver Integrated Amplifier is that Mike S. designed it to spread the burden over more tubes than might strictly be necessary. I haven't had it long enough to verify the longevity, but the sound is great.
My first talk with Andy Bowman of VTS pretty much echoed those exact sentiments.
Materials, quality control and clean procedure. Something he feels is missing in todays Chinese and Russian tube manufacturers.
So ofcourse I purchases a matched Octet of Blackburn factory Mullard EL34's and havent had a hiccup since. So much better sounding the Primaluna/Shuguangs that came in my amp. (Warmer, more meat on the bone sounding)
Andy has kept a list of what tubes he sold me and how they measured just incase I need a replacement in the future.
Brent Jesse is another wealth of knowledge on the subject. He also has a large selection of NOS 6dj8 variants. My favorite ones of the many I bought from him are the Mazda 7308 French Military tube. Labeled Phillip Mini Watt E188CC.
I have limited experience with rolling of NOS tubes. I imagine, like everything in this subjective hobby, I am prone to listener bias and and limited SQ memory. BUT I have heard nice changes in SQ with quality NOS tubes....like the expression says, "everything matters"...
When tubes were the only game in town, hundreds of millions were made and a lot of money, engineering and manufacturing talent went into producing good tubes; nothing like this kind of market remains to push current manufacturers to up their game.
Also, what remains of tubes from the past that are highly sought after represent the cream of the crop. These are tubes that have been tested by the collective experience of the market. I bet that a whole lot of crappy tubes have long ago been crushed and disposed.
I currently only make use of a few tubes that are available in old and new manufacture. I use 12AX7s in my phono stage and I prefer the older tubes (I currently run Telefunken ECC803S) and I use Western Electric 310a tubes in my linestage. In my Audio Note Kageki amp (on loan to a friend), I did like some currently manufactured tubes, such as the EML 2a3. The only modern tube I run in my currently operating system are two 300b (Sovtek) tubes that are used as rectifiers in my phono stage.
The rest of the tubes in my current system are all, by necessity, old tubes--Western Electric 348 and 349.
I must share that I am not a tube roller, and had been quite pleased with the sound of my LTA MicroZOTL and Herron VTPH-2A stock. I did get the urge to try some NOS tubes...I contacted BRENT JESSEE, who I found to be responsive, honest and helpful; I am MOST PLEASED with the changes.....
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