To add a bit of detail, there is about 13 feet between the front wall and my listening position (couch), with an open staircase behind the couch leading downstairs (so about another 8ft to the back wall). To the left of the speaker there is about 4 feet to a bay window, and to to right the room is open to a total width of about 25 ft. Ceilings are 8 ft. I don’t generally listen at very loud volumes, because my speakers don’t like that but also out of preference. All musical genres.
Vandersteen 1C to 3A Signature
I currently own the 1Cs, paired with a Naim Nait 5i. I like the sound, have had these speakers for the better part of 15 years and I still love their presentation, the openness and sense of space they provide. They are fabulous to my ears.
Which isn’t to say they are perfect, they don’t like being played too loud (seem fragile, break up at higher volumes), and the bass isn’t as deep or (more importantly) as defined as it could be. Also I sometimes hear some lack of refinement in the tweeter (although at other times it sounds positively glorious, especially with horns and flutes). So after refinishing the basement and adding a big TV with prewired surround sound I found a used Vandersteen center speaker, so I’m thinking of moving the 1C to the basement and getting a different (hopefully better) speaker for upstairs. I did a bit of research and it appears Spendor is supposed to be a good match for Naim, so I was able to borrow a pair of S8E to try out. You can tell the speaker can handle much more power and can play cleanly at those high levels, and the sound is nicely balanced throughout the frequency range, but they sound like boxes. The Vandy’s don’t. I think I’ve written off Spendor, Proac, Totem and the like, as the design looks similar.
I should probably stick with Vandersteen or similar sounding speakers. I have an opportunity to buy some 3A Signatures, but am afraid I will lose the lithe nature of the 1’s which I like, so I’m looking for opinions on this, and maybe for suggestions of other models that would sort of fit into the sound I’ve tried to describe. Thanks
Which isn’t to say they are perfect, they don’t like being played too loud (seem fragile, break up at higher volumes), and the bass isn’t as deep or (more importantly) as defined as it could be. Also I sometimes hear some lack of refinement in the tweeter (although at other times it sounds positively glorious, especially with horns and flutes). So after refinishing the basement and adding a big TV with prewired surround sound I found a used Vandersteen center speaker, so I’m thinking of moving the 1C to the basement and getting a different (hopefully better) speaker for upstairs. I did a bit of research and it appears Spendor is supposed to be a good match for Naim, so I was able to borrow a pair of S8E to try out. You can tell the speaker can handle much more power and can play cleanly at those high levels, and the sound is nicely balanced throughout the frequency range, but they sound like boxes. The Vandy’s don’t. I think I’ve written off Spendor, Proac, Totem and the like, as the design looks similar.
I should probably stick with Vandersteen or similar sounding speakers. I have an opportunity to buy some 3A Signatures, but am afraid I will lose the lithe nature of the 1’s which I like, so I’m looking for opinions on this, and maybe for suggestions of other models that would sort of fit into the sound I’ve tried to describe. Thanks
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I don’t think you’ll lose much if anything going to 3A Sigs and will likely gain a ton with better bass, dynamics, and probably greater refinement up top. I’d absolutely say go for it! Another brand you might like would be Nola. Regardless, after 15 years with the same speaker I think you’re due, and if you haven’t already definitely get out and listen to hear what else is available these days just for reference if nothing else. Best of luck. |
I had a Naim Nait 5i, and imo with the 1C, which I also owned but never paired, I suggest you have a LOT of room to go up in terms of sound quality with that pairing. I didn't keep the Nait 5i for too long; it simply wasn't that good. Thin, lacking body and not terribly captivating, classic Brit, flat earth sound and on the whole sterile. The 1C is ok, but certainly not all that. It's a starter speaker, very nice, but compromised, as would be expected for a budget model. At the time I thought they were super-great, but much more experience shifts that perception. Do have any idea of how much of the performance spectrum lies beyond that combo? I suggest you get moving - either up the Vandersteen line if that's your thing, or onto something else - before you spend another 15 years not hearing that much of what is possible in HiFi. :) My guess is you might be convinced that there is not much better performance than Vandersteen for the money. So, you may as well do the 3. "Lithe"? You mean, constrained, less adept, less generous, less dynamically easeful, less tonally ripe, etc. You're afraid of what you'll lose, but you seem to not realize that there is far more to be gained moving up from your level. You are relatively low on the performance level of audio systems. Your issue is not what you will lose, it's not realizing all there is to gain. :( |
If you want to move up the Vandersteen line the model 2ce would be my recommendation. Many moons ago I replaced the 2ce with the 3a and in my listening room I preferred the 2ce . Placement is very critical with Vandersteens and I could never get the larger 3a to sing! https://www.vandersteen.com/products/model-2ce-signature-iii |
Treo will suit you much better. Find an owner who is upgrading to the carbon tweeter. One of my systems is built around the Treo, the other 7’s. There is a lot of development and engineering from the 7 in the Treo. loved my 3a-Sig, Brother still has them but they iMO need an amp w grunt and drive, the box w sound anchors is not small. see treo system https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/7100 consider joining the Vandy owners forum enjoy the music ! jim |
Excellent advice thus far. I moved from my 1C’s to 2CE Sigs in a matter of a month (got very lucky with someone selling his 2’s for a very very fair price), seriously, as I fell in love with the 1’s sound and wanted more. You would not loose anything moving up, IMO, only gain more of what you already like about the 1’s. The 3’s should work nicely for you if the price is right, but as Jim @tomic601 stated, the new 2 model III’s sound to be an incredible solution as well, as would be the Treo’s, but I would assume a larger investment. I don’t think you can go wrong with any of them. BTW, I still have the 1’s as ‘rear’ speakers in my HT set-up, and comforted in that they are solid back-up speakers as well. I had to do that while getting one of my acoustic couplers repaired. Was nice to have them at the time, but could not wait to get the 2CE Sigs back in operation. Big difference. |
I auditioned the Treo CT and the newest 2CE Signature III against each other for a long time, and chose the new 2CE to replace a 20 year old pair. At the time I was considering a like-new pair of Treo CTs (1 year old, $6000), and I still second-guess myself for not getting them. They don’t come up for sale often. I think the newest 2CE is arguably a better speaker than the 3, and my dealer said the same thing. It’s certainly a better value. I would get the Treo CT instead of a pair of 3’s for sure. Virtues of the 2CE Sig III: * Price ... a superb value. * Better bass extension than the Treo (though the bass the Treo has IS superb) *Same mid-range drive as the Treo CT, iirc Virtues of the Treo CT: * Gorgeous speakers, and much better spouse acceptance factor esp. for a living room * More solid cabinet, fewer resonances * Carbon tweeter. My 63 year old ears couldn’t hear much difference between it and the 2CE, and the midrange of the two seemed equal. Said to be a better tweeter by "everyone" though. * Can be placed closer to the wall without messing up the bass response The salesman at my dealer owns a pair of 2CEs that he has paired with $20k of amp and preamp, and he says they just sung beautifully. With every improvement to the front end, the speakers rose to the occasion. When I was trying to choose, he warned me that the Treos might reveal deficiencies in my front end more than the 2CE’s did, which meant upgrading everything and I couldn’t do that. The other salesman there has Treo CTs to which he’s added a pair of subwoofers (the alternative could have been the Quatro CT), with an Audio Research front end and Chord Hugo TT2 DAC, and he says it’s magical. More $$ than I have! I am in the process of investing about $10k in amp/preamp or integrated soon, and I think the 2CE’s will rise to the occasion. Of course, that’s pocket change for some of you! Maybe later I will switch to the Treo CT. Maybe. Long-winded tale, taking it FWIW. Good luck. |
@patrickdowns Thanks for your opinion of the new III’s. Since they came out, and have received so many glowing reviews, I am really thinking about the new 2’s as a replacement for my older Sig’s. The 2CE Sigs do fit my space/room nicely, and I’m not sure I could do a lot better than the III’s for the money. |
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I would suggest something, um, outside the box. 10 years ago, I decided to replace my 1Cs. The 2Ces were a little too large, physically, for my room. I ended up with a pair of Ohm Walsh 2000s, and 10 years later, I haven't regretted it for a minute. Based on your room size, you might require the Walsh 3000 or 4000. The drivers sit proud of the cabinet, no boxy sound here. Quite capable in the bass, and you can crank them without any congestion or loss in sound quality. They come with a 120 day return option, but you will the lose the shipping round trip if you return them. |
I've heard good things about the Ohm. In that form factor, the speaker I would audition if I wanted something other than the Vandersteens (front firing), would be the Larsens. Larsen 6 or 8. I say that only because of intriguing reviews and word of mouth. They fire towards each other, throwing up a "wall of sound." Larsen 6.2 review: https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/larsen-model-62-loudspeaker Larsen 8 review: https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/larsen-model-8-loudspeaker
The Sound In Itself Large-scaled music, where the match between room sound and direct sound is a vital matter, especially illustrates the virtues of the Model 8s. Orchestras sound surprisingly like orchestras, with a transparency that goes not just down into the midrange but all the way down. If you wanted to write down the bass and cello parts of a symphonic composition from listening, these speakers would make it easy. At the same time, the human voice is also very convincing. A good recording of a person speaking sounds startlingly like a real person, something that often escapes speakers that change directivity in the midrange on account of the baffle step. And instruments with serious lower-midrange content sound unusually convincing, as noted. The Larsen Model 8 is to my mind a speaker that everyone seriously interested in audio ought to listen to and at as much length as possible, since one needs to adjust to its quite different approach to reproducing sound in rooms. There are things it does, and important things at that, that to my mind lie at the heart of actually sounding like live music. The approach is entirely different from the near-field, directional speakers that can also claim a really accurate reproduction of what is on the recordings, albeit in a different way. But the approach of the Larsen Model 8s has validity of its own. How speakers should work in rooms is not a very standardized matter. But the way of the Larsens is one of the ways that works. The Larsens, most impressively, really sound the way music actually does sound. The Model 8s are not just another try at making a speaker like all the rest except better, as so many high-end speakers are. Rather, the Larsen Model 8s are something special in their own right. |
Phaco, I auditioned a goodly number of speakers recently for an upgrade and spent a little seat-time with the 1Ci because I fondly remembered similar seat-time, many years earlier, with either the model 2 or 3. Can't recall which because that was a while back. However, I do remember being very impressed by what I'd heard. The 1Ci, to my ears, were a disappointment compared to that experience, even powered by a 75 watt into 8 ohms rated MAC tube stack. I'm not familiar with your amp. However, judging from the specs alone, conservatively rated at 50 watts into 8 ohms (likely more) seems rather limiting with regard to appropriately matched speaker choices. The best advice anyone can give you on something like this is to spend some critical listening time to a variety of speakers, under conditions as controlled as you can get them (i.e. same or similar amp; etc.). More than just about anything else in audio, speakers are a very personal, subjective choice. Different ears like different sound signatures. Best of luck! |
Good advice from @oldaudiophile The best advice anyone can give you on something like this is to spend some critical listening time to a variety of speakers, under conditions as controlled as you can get them (i.e. same or similar amp; etc.). More than just about anything else in audio, speakers are a very personal, subjective choice. Different ears like different sound signatures. I can only speak to the original Treo that I have been completely happy with for a few years now and have no desire to look anywhere else. I am often surprised at just how good they sound as if it were the first time that I was listening to them. Some would say that at 85 dB sensitivity they would be hard to drive but I have them paired with a Class D power amp and they sound great at all volume levels with zero issue at all. Low and mid volume levels sound great and I can go as loud as my ears and body can handle and they sound great. Since you are already a Vandersteen fan you won't go wrong with any of your choices. They are all great speakers. Happy Listening! |
Wow, a lot of good advice and information, thanks to all for your responses. Budget is an issue here, I’m sure 3k for another amp and the same for speakers will add quality, but that’s not really in the cards at this point. I must say I’ve spent more time with the Spendors and they have either grown on me, or as speakermaster said warming them up properly changed their sound; either way my decision is more difficult. I will take the general advice of going about it by trial and error, and have noted specific suggestions such as Ohm Walsh and maybe Larsen. With respect to buying Vandersteen new - they basically don’t have any real dealers in Canada any more, and definitely none within 300 miles. I will mst likely buy used, unless I buy Magnepan. Any opinions on LRS? They are within my budget… |
I’ve owned the LRS over a year now, always liked them a lot, but first added a REL T/Zero lll and now a REL T/9i and they are incredible. Good success Belles Aria integrated, Musical Fidelity M2si, Schiit Vidar and Gato 150...I use in small room, where Magnepan said the LRS would sound better than a larger model... |
@OP, If you have the Vandy 1's, I would suggest buying a pair of Vandy subs. Now that the new Sub 3 has come out, you can find a pair of 2wq's for close to $1k used. These might add the 'punch' you need. They also relieve your amp from the power demands of the bass frequencies.-So, you might notice an improvement in performance they don’t like being played too loud (seem fragile, break up at higher volumes), and the bass isn’t as deep or (more importantly) as defined as it could be. Also I sometimes hear some lack of refinement in the tweeter (although at other times it sounds positively glorious, especially with horns and flutes). The best part is that you can use them with any other speaker- Like the Magnepan LRS's which I know will benefit from adding subwoofers. Once again, please reach out to Johnny Rutan (audioconnection). He won't try to sell you anything, but will offer the best advice to anyone who like Vandersteen. PM me if you want his number. Bob |
@gdnrbob and o.p.... That's exactly what I did in my quest to improve my 1Cs, along with upgrading most of my electronics. It helped to add one, then a second 2Wq, then a pair of MHP-5 crossovers. But after all of that I felt I had taken the 1Cs as far as they could go, and I still wasn't happy. That's when I began the search for new speakers, ending up with the Ohms. For the price, the 1C is a great, if compromised, loudspeaker. But it isn't an MBL Radialstrahler, not even a poor man's Radialstrahler. It sounds to me like the o.p. is ready for a real loudspeaker upgrade. |
@OP, The 3a sigs are great speakers. I know you will love them. As far as recs for power amps- (I would still contact John Rutan...) But, if you'd rather not,... Then a Belles Aria Integrated would be on my list. It sounds great with Vandersteen's. I heard it at Audioconnection. 75wpc, should be good to run the 3asigs, unless you really want to blast it☺). And, please do join the Vandersteen forum- It's on the Vandy website, just look for the tab up top. B |
congrats on your 3a-sig, my brother owns my pair. He runs them with a nice Threshold amp and ARC preamp. Hopefully they came with the SoundAnchor stands ? for best results follow the manual closely for tilt. I use a Leica Disto laser. The 3aSig have the magic 5a mid and tweeter, awesome sound possible for sure. As Bob mentioned please do join the owners forum, we need Canada on the podium Jim |
Well, taking into consideration the unique tonality of any given amp, if you want perceptual waste about 20-25% of your upgrade, put under 100wpc on them. Nice way to underperform. It's about quality for me, not the misnomer of playing loud, or good enough amp. It will run w. 75 Watts, but it won't be great. Could actually sound worse than Nait 5i and 1C in terms of quality. :( I wouldn't want to hear Vandy 1-3 with anything less than 200wpc. Be ause of novelty you'll think it's ultimate. Not close when underpowered. |
I have Vandersteen model 3's (not 3a sigs)and ran them with a naim supernait 2, and after a long time of messing with placement I got them to sound fantastic. Naim does have a "gainy" lively sound which I believe woke up the Model 3's to a point. Curiosity got to me and I purchased a pair of brand new model 2 signature 3's, to try. Still have the 2's(almost a year) but the naim is gone. The model 2 sig 3's are more refined in the mids and highs than the 3's with very slightly less but better bass. The naim was too much for the 2's in my setup. I now use an audio research integrated(dsi200) and it sounds fantastic. I believe its largely bc of the passive preamp. I have great results with the model 2 sig 3's but im under the impression right now that the integrated should have a passive preamp to compliment the time aligned design of vandersteen.(at least it worked for me) Really smoothened out the sound in a big way. All other integrateds I tried were active pre's and sounded similar to each other and missing something. probably due to room size? I tried an Ayre ax7 which was good(passive pre)but lacked power for louder volumes. In looking for a "powerful" passive amp, I ended up with the ARC. The passive pre is very engaging even at a low volume. That's my outcome after many amps with these speakers...so far lol. Hope it helps you! Amps I "tried" with Vandersteen Naim Supernait 2 Supernait 2 with high cap Mcintosh ma 6900 Krell 400xi Krell Vanguard Musical Fidelity A308 Ayre Ax7 Audio Research dsi200 |
Congrats on the 3ASigs! I’ve owned them as well as 1Cs and other Vandersteens. When you decide to look more at amps, I’ve found great luck with Belles in the price range I suspect you may consider. The 150a reference v2 is a great match, as I suspect the newer Aria also is. That 150A Ref V2 with a Audible Illusions preamp was a magic combination with the 3A Signatures. Enjoy the new speakers! |
I'm using 3Asigs with Bryston 3B-ST, ARC SP-16 with Schiit Loki. Incredible sound, first rate imaging, bass , detail and because of the Loki, I'm able to dial things in as needed. I have set the Loki to my liking and really never change it. The amp and preamp are 20 plus years old. The Vandy's are close to that age. |