Vandersteen

Very very unusual situation .......

What is the rest of your system? Sounds like the new VANDY speakers are an extremely poor mismatch with the rest of your particular gear.
system synergy matters --big time -- and one size does not fit all.

When you say they " fall to pieces..." , can you elaborate please? 

What speakers were you using previously in this same system where this did not occur, and what equipment are you currently using?

I am not understand what falls to pieces means.  Symphonic works could be the way your source and preamp send the signal, same for rock.  

The Sigs will do justice to some fine quality gear so the point-of-no-returns is likely elsewhere in your system. Vandersteens are very sensitive to toe in, tilt, and distance from walls but "falls to pieces" on complex works sounds more like a speaker control (signal) problem as noted above.

I've been listening to mostly hard rock and the blues through my 3A Sigs for the last 5 years.  In no way are these speakers deficient while playing that music.  You received some good insight in the last 4 posts.  

I've heard the 3a and Treo ct many times and they are absolutely fantastic. They do justice with all types of music especially complex classicals and rock. Then again, the source and amp was all Ayre acoustics.  I don't think it's the speakers.  Tell us what components your using and the type of speaker wires. 

I understand the OP’s point - but I’d say it’s really only valid in the context of overall high end speaker designs.

The Vandy 2 and 3 series are not goosed through the presence region and can sound less dynamic to those used to the many, many high end speakers that are. They also both feature a gently falling overall FR, desirable IMO for natural sounding tonality in most rooms. Both speakers (The 2, in particular, IMO) work amazingly well on their own terms, but neither is perfect in every respect. IME, no speaker is going to satisfy every listener on every recording, and the 2 and 3 are designed to the relative strengths the OP identified at the expense of the relative weaknesses the OP identified. Just MHO, but for me:

The net result is that the 2 and 3 virtually always sound great with smaller scale music, but may feel less satisfying on "bigger" music.

this hobby would be a lot easier if the recordings were better.  That is the main issue a lot of times, our expensive gear makes some of our favorite music sound like crap.  I don't get how they could make something like Dark Side of the Moon sound so good in 1972 but yet in modern times with all of the knowledge and techniques most guys can't come close to making recordings like this. 

 I've heard Vandys on a handful of occasions over the years... 
 Many years ago I had the 3A Sigs here in my house for a demo, w/ Parasound Halo gear that I had at the time and I loved them. From what I remember, they had the sound that everyone describes from Vandy... I was quite inexperienced then and had yet to experience real 'hi-end' audio, just then coming out of HT and into 2-ch, so I don't know what I would think of them today, 15 years later. Was it the Halo gear that made them sound good to me?

 Five years or so ago Richard V. was in town with a SimAudio rep. They did a controlled presentation / demo of some new huge (and expensive) 700w or so Sim SS amps with the Model 7. After a long introduction by the Sim guy, he played some somewhat odd tracks of island-fusion something or other. It sounded a lil cold and emotionless. Could it of been these new amps not wormed up or not fully broken in?

 Two or three years ago I had a Quatro demo (for serious consideration) at the same local dealer, w/ SimAudio gear. The tone was so off that very familiar music sounded like it was being played by different people with different voices and diferent guitars. Sounded like a weird facsimile of what I was used to hearing from this band all my life --not natural and real sounding at all. I was very surprised at what I heard (but my current system excels at real, natural and proper tone and timber, so I could be spoiled). Was it the mid level Sim gear or the cables to blame for the bad tone?

 Same year as above, I listened to the Trios a few times at AXPONA w/ C/J gear. I played a reference CD track of mine, a bluegrass version of Another Brick In The Wall. It has a segment of some fast picking of two acoustic guitars. It totally fell apart. A jumbled muddy mess, but sounded good when the tune was in its clean and simple stages. Is the CJ gear to blame for the lack of clarity?

The point here?  I know people love Vandys, and I did one time too, but as mentioned from others, they need gear and cable matched very very carefully to sound great. There are many out there that can attest to having great sound with Vandys...just to many bad demos for me.  As a reference, I like Daedalus, Devore and sometimes Harbeth (set-up dependent), just bad luck with Vandy.

Thanks to everyone for your thoughts

Why don't you answer the questions raised in the replies by describing the rest of your system, how it's setup in the room (including dimensions) and let people try to give you some meaningful suggestions? 

Vandys can rock pretty well IMHE, this might be as simple as tweaking your placement, etc. Cheers,
Spencer

What is the rest of the equipment in your system? What previous speakers did you use?

Vandy's are pretty darn good speakers. There are 4 likely possibilities:

1. Your setup is off.
2. Some other component in your system is causing the issues you hear.
3. Your newly acquired Vandy's are broken.
4. You don't like them.

I've heard Vandy 2's and 3's with large scale classical music and though they were about as good as it gets at their price point.

Most audiophile loudspeakers "fall apart" when trying to reproduce large scale music when compared to their performance of smaller musical groups.  The Vandersteens are no worst than other similar loudspeakers in this respect. 

The owners manual gives very specific setup instructions. Its not difficult, but you need to take the time and do it. Also, move the speakers closer together. Try them at 6ft, 6.5ft and 7ft apart. Measure from inside edge to inside edge. Make sure the contour adjustments on the back of the xovers are set to 0, and carefully check your speaker cables at both ends to be absolutely sure you didn't accidently wire them out of phase.

If none of that helps, list your entire system and a description of your listening room.

I have 3A Sigs and while I don't listen to large scale symphonic works, they excel with rock and jazz.  And anything with well recorded vocals.  

You can see my system in the systems section. One thing I don't have listed is that I use Audioquest Colorado ics, which work very well indeed. 

I owned the 3a sig's (just sold them today, so I can get the Treo's), and I never noticed them 'falling apart' on certain music.
As others have mentioned, what components are you using with the Vandy's?
Johnny Rutan, audioconnection, is a font of Vandy knowledge and would be a good person to contact with your problem.
Bob

Not a 3A Sig but I do have the 2CE Sig II powered by McIntosh monoblocks MC 601, 600 watts per amp and never experience any falling apart. I love my 2CE Sig II as they just get better and better as it aged.

A question for all the people who say their Vandys don't fall apart on large scale music -- at what volume level are you listening?

The point of the OP is valid imo. There are many speakers which are superior to the Vandy II and III in terms of tightness and accuracy of the bass especially. I found this to be the case regardless of listening level. These models of the Vandersteens are not the last word on definition and cleanness, and bias in favor of the speakers does not change that. I owned the II CE and got tired of the indistinctness of the low end, so I moved to as far afield as I could, the Maggie 1.6QR. Of course that model has its own issues. Both of these speakers are bargains but have distinct shortcomings. 

In terms of their performance to price the lower end Vandersteens are highly recommendable, but certainly not in terms of absolute performance. This should not be shocking, as after all Vandersteen has improved their lines markedly with much superior and much more costly models like the 5 and 7. 

I had Vandersteen ll CE Sigs for a couple of years and kept switching amps, both tubed and solid state, including Krell, Rogue Audio, Musical Fidelity and Conrad Johnson in the hopes of "waking them up." Ultimately, I could not get them to achieve the level of dynamic range I wanted. I finally found my desired level of punch in Thiel 2.4s and have enjoyed them for several years now with no inkling of swapping them for another speaker.

" These models of the Vandersteens are not the last word on definition and cleanness, and bias in favor of the speakers does not change that. I owned the II CE and got tired of the indistinctness of the low end, so I moved to as far afield as I could, the Maggie 1.6QR. Of course that model has its own issues. Both of these speakers are bargains but have distinct shortcomings."

The problem with Vandersteens is that very few people take the time to set them up right, and match components for best results. Right now I have my Model 2's v biamped with 2 Ayre V-5's, Aesthetix Calypso and a Wadia 861SE. That's close to 30k in electronics for a $2500 speaker. If you listened to my system, you would never say the speakers are the weak link in the chain. They embarrassed both pair of my B&W 802's, made the 1.6's and 1.7's sound like they were broken, and in most areas, outperform my Wilson's. But that's only if you set them up right. Most people aren't aware of just how transparent Vandersteen's are overall, and quite often mistake flaws in other components as speaker issues.  

Talked to John Rutan awhile ago. He said using the Belles Aria integrated not only improved the overall sound of the Vandy's, but drastically improved dynamic range. Somewhere down the road I'm going to try this amp on my Vandersteen Treo CT's to validate his impression.

mb1audio02, your comments mirror the perceptions of a good number of audiophiles. Any speaker will leap to impressive performance levels when placed with very fine gear and set up well. One method of system building which is "tried and true" is to find what one considers an outperforming affordable speaker and jack up the components ahead of it. Of course, the opposite method is just as supported, using what are considered outperforming affordable electronics with a perceived more high end speaker. As might be expected there are proponents of each method. I have tried both and one can get desirable results either way, but typically not SOTA. 

So, it's not surprising that you achieved far better results than average by complementing the Vandy's with the most suitable gear. My point was not to diminish Vandersteens, but simply to point out why some would not prefer the sound. A system which has been optimized for one speaker will not typically serve all speakers with equal benefit. One notable exception is the Exogal Comet DAC and Ion PowerDAC together, which I reviewed for Dagogo.com and own. It was the only set of pre/DAC/power electronics to take five speaker systems (including panel, dynamic, hybrid dynamic, omni) to their best performance ever, something which had never occurred in all my years of reviewing. I was deeply impressed by that result. It should be expected that normally a rig that is set up to maximize the sound of a dynamic speaker would not be forgiving to a panel speaker.

However...

In regards to your comment about the Maggies sounding "broken" in comparison, I will share a brief story. At one point I had a pair of MMGs in my office. Some friends who are huge Vandy fans were interested, having never heard them. I carted them over to their house and used their system to compare the Vandy 3's (I forget which version)  to the humble MMG. We simply dropped the MMGs in and did no optimization for them. They guffawed at the sound quality level achievable when this cheap $600 speaker was put into their big gun system. No "broken" sounding result that time! Obviously a radically different result as would be expected.
I knew it would not be a cakewalk for the Vandy 3, but even I was surprised at how competitive the MMG was considering two Vandy Subs were in use but not tweaked for the MMGs (They were also in use with the 3s). 

I consider the term "broken" as largely a dismissal of the panel sound. There seem to be nearly as many fans of Magnepan as Vandersteen - they are both premier audiophile speaker sellers in North America. Maggie fans would be as able to describe the sound of a Vandy, or any dynamic speaker, as sounding "broken". Technological preference plays a large part in your comparison. 

As for myself I find both have something terrific to offer and specific limitations, which is why I work with both panel and dynamic speakers. The Vandys and Maggies are perhaps the most adored of these two competing technologies, and for good reason. :)

Finally, I suggest that for people who have the perception of the OP, they might wish to try a class D amp with very high power, like 500-1,000wpc, with the Vandy 2 or 3 as this should tighten up the speaker quite a bit. Tonally the outcome is not guaranteed to be acceptable (I put the odds at 50/50, but such things are part of the exploration. 
 

Years ago I drove a pair of Vandy 1Bs with an Acurus A250 amp and this combo provided a full range dynamic sound on everything I listened to. The "most audiophile speakers fall apart" comment is silly and in my experience utterly unfounded, as any supposed "audiophile" speaker should be expected to play anything well, and most actually do within possible sound level or bass response limitations, but LS3/5As shouldn't be expected to sound like something with 10" bass drivers. I use mains now with very small 3.75" mid/bass drivers (Silverline Preludes) and a couple of REL subs…65 watt pc tube amp…this rig will play anything beautifully from low levels to ear damage warning zone, and the "music style" specific speaker concept is ridiculous…Mahler and Landreth both should feel as good as mandolin solo works, and in most reasonably sorted systems they will.

" I consider the term "broken" as largely a dismissal of the panel sound. There seem to be nearly as many fans of Magnepan as Vandersteen - they are both premier audiophile speaker sellers in North America. Maggie fans would be as able to describe the sound of a Vandy, or any dynamic speaker, as sounding "broken". Technological preference plays a large part in your comparison."

Poor choice of words on my part. I should have taken the time to compare the differences between the speakers than to just say they sounded broken.

having owned 3A Sig for a decade before moving to 5 A and now 7 Mk2 I will say there are a couple of critical things to get right about the Model 3 in general.

First it sounds like you did not buy them thru a dealer - make sure they are not broken including a fried voicecoil or  a delaminated surround. IF you did get them thru a dealer make them work to support you. IMO just about every Vandersteen dealer is crazy about the product and supporting it. Richard also takes a lot of ? via web and posts answers and of course he picks up the phone.

setup - verify gas tight and correct phase connection thru the chain. Are you biwiring ? do you know IF the connections are correct ? Shotgun or ?

Follow the setup directions to the T
did you do the math on the room and use the golden ratio setup #’ ?
the sound anchor stands are essential do you have them ? are they by any chance touching the back wall ?
the acoustic coupler will connect to the back wall in a massive way if they're too close. you can also tune the bass a bit by experimenting w distance to back wall. You can download Vandertones off Vandersteen website and use a simple radio shack analog SPL meter - this way you will know what your room is doing..more non Vandersteen owners should also do this...many prefer head or ears in sand...
Use a tape measure and a helper to very your ear height at the listening position and the distance to speaker, get the tilt right !

you can also download the setup manuals off the Vandersteen website

finally IM experience you need an amp with high damping factor to control the woofers BUT also a sweet top and mid - they are pretty revealing. I used a 200 WPC Mac and I would say it worked well. My LiL Mac 240 would run them barelyy...ha The Mac did not do so well with the 5's but that is a deifferent tale...

My old 3 A sig still in service making great music in brothers system - 150 WPC PS Audio has a vice like grip on Bass, Mac preamp, SOTA table.....ah.......

Enjoy

Jim

Very good info from the replies to your post. I have 2CE's, 3ASigs and Maggie 1.6 in different systems in my home. They ALL sound great to my ears and other's who have visited. With Vandersteens and Maggie's, set up is VERY IMPORTANT!! All of the points made regarding set up by the folks responding here are spot on. Read the manual, experiment  and take your time. If possible, speak with Richard Vandersteen or John Rutan of Audio Connection. They will help you get the speakers performing their best. I'm a long time customer of John Rutan's. He's the best in the business and he's "Way Recommended".

gdnrbob, please keep us posted on your thoughts on the Treos. Are you getting the CTs?

I'm sorry, but I really have to agree with bewoods1962, he is absolutely correct in what he is saying and I do know what he means without asking him for a further clarification. I know this because I used to own Vandersteens at one time and got rid of them. Please, I really don't want to get into an argument with anybody here as this is just my opinion and I'm just expressing it like everyone else. Vandersteens are really nice speakers, but certainly not worth what they are asking for them as I feel they are incredibly over priced for what they can do. They are nice enough for acoustic jazz at low volumes, but just cannot hack it for rock or symphonic works. There is so much better out there for the same or mostly less money than Vandersteens and no, I am not going to tell you what I think is better as that will lead to more arguments of which I already am going to have to defend myself for just saying this small piece. All I am doing here is agreeing with the original writer ( bewoods1962 ) that is all.

@tomic601 +1  

Jim is right on here.  I had 3A Sigs for about the same time as him.  I found keeping them out into the listening room to be critical.  If I had them too close to the wall behind them the sound was a bit congested and "rough".  They need breathing room and good electronics and cables.  Richard V. used Audioquest cables for many years at shows with his speakers and had fine results.  I followed his example...that is not to say that they are the only synergistic cables with Vandys.

Re-read what Jim said above and implement as many of his suggestions as possible.

If you want a second opinion, John Rutan at Audio Connection, Verona, NJ is it!

Hope you work it out!

I owned Vandy 5ACs and have had 2CEs Sigs as well. Problem with Vandys is that the "sweet spot" is about a quarter-inch wide and they are hugely over-priced. For about one-third the price Tyler Acoustics gives a vastly broader sound-stage and equivalent quality drivers.

I have to agree with what @tomic601 says, and follow setup exactly. Vandersteen gives very specific instructions on setup, and the stands are a necessity--they add that last bit of focus to the sound.

But I will say this--I have some 2CEs here and don't feel they "fall apart" on any type of music.  Especially large-scale classical.  And, I don't even have them properly set up yet. (Have not had time to fully tweak placement and to be honest, they would probably do even better in a slightly larger room.)  I can vouch for them being power hungry, though. The Threshold Stasis amp I'm running has no issues driving them--the Vandys really bloom when I turn the volume up.  Less powerful amps can't give them the juice they need.  Feed them well with plenty of power and good source components, and they'll treat you well.

I'm a planar speaker guy myself, so some qualities of the speaker aren't exactly my preference.  But still, what the Vandys do, they do nicely.  I probably will keep these for a second system.  

My Vandie 4As are excellent on symphonic works.  They don't 'fall apart' at all, but then they run separately amplified bass sections with a Vandersteen external crossover.

Wow!  4As?  Don't often hear about Model 4s.  How long have you had them?

My experience with Vandersteen is they excel no matter what you throw at them.  I own a pair of Vandersteen 3.  I have it so I can run them either in my all tube analog system consisting of an Audible Illusions Modulus 3, Music Reference RM-9 & VPI tt, or swap the speaker cables and run them as my home theatre front speakers.  I used to own a pair of Vandersteen 2C driven by Quicksilver Monos & Audible Illusions 2C . . . no negative issues to report there either.  I play in a rock band and have used hearing protection for years so my hearing is fine.  I can tell you these speakers can reproduce Deep Purple as if you were on stage with the band as well as play Vaughan Williams Symphony Antartica.  Highly recommended.

However, I find the  bewoods1962's behavior here a little bit disrespectful to this number of people trying to help and give an opinion. 

Sounds like not enough amp. I have 2ce's with stereo subs and are heavenly on symphonic music. Running old sonatas mono/blk M200. Set up is fussy but once you get it they are quite nice. I have heard many 3a sigs. and always was amazed. They really like good electronics. Good luck

Long time Vandersteen owner. 2CE Sig's and now 3A Signature II Anniversary Edition. Agree with consensus they will play anything, from soft unplugged acoustic to concert loud rock (like way past 11!). They will also quickly expose the short comings of poor equipment behind them.
Vandy's have legs and need to breathe with ample, quality amplification, connections and receiver/preamp.
Personally I run a Yamaha RX-Z7 to an 300wpc Adcom 5802 amp with MIT shotgun cables all the way. Slight tweaking of position or connection continues to surprise with new levels of detail in even my oldest recordings. Build a good foundation, experiment and enjoy.  

I have the 3A sigs for about a year now and could not be more impressed. I've attended many demo's prior to the purchase and heard a lot of great, and not so great speakers. The one thing that sucked me into Vandersteen was that I just couldn't stop listening to them. Some speakers I raved about imagining, others the level of detail but the 3A's I just listened and enjoyed. To me they are just make you want to listed instead of dissecting the pros/cons. 
I have an odd shaped room with high ceilings and I can not tell how much proper placement, tilt, toe and contour controls can improve the sound but even right out the box they sounded great....just very enjoyable to listen to with zero fatigue. 
when that woofer is pushed properly rock music is excellent 

the comments about value are absurd. Richard is hyper frugal and nothing absolutely nothing  makes it into a speaker without adding value.
The 3A sig use same tweeter and mid as the vaunted 5a
Tyler while sourcing direct to consumer use Scanspeak drivers as do Vandersteen including a patented MID. As you should know Scanspeak has nothing to touch the carbon / balsa drivers at any price.

perhaps you should start a Tyler thread vs. pollute helping the OP

email me a picture of your 5 a carbons as you set them up, who was your dealer?

Tomic
 scroll down and read below
 Looks like Deepee is already on the Tyler agenda payroll.
 Look at his glowing Vandy review something had to change!
Like you said Tyler is a good box speaker and I have heard them.
Id enjoy and invite Comparison
 Vandersteen 1CIs at $1274 the pair to the 2500 tyler boxes and see what most will leave with
 Let alone try and play Chris Issac San Fransisco days 515 was just a train,
 without the Cows mooing.
 Best JohnnyR



deepee9923 posts01-25-2014 7:52amI've had my Vandy 5A Carbons for about 18 months now; they replaced my beloved Maggie IIs which were coupled with an ancient Vandy 2W powered subwoof. Given the right source material, the 5s just seem to disappear from the room, leaving only the music. Setting up the high-pass filters to match your amp's input impedance is a matter of setting a few DIP switches and takes about a minute to figure out and do. You can spend as much or as little time as you wish emplacing and angling the speaks for a single sweet spot to take advantage of Richard's efforts to provide perfect imaging, or just muscle the things around till they sound right in your room. Mine are toed-outward about 30 degrees and about 18-inches from the long wall they're on, and from my off-center listening chair the imaging is perfect - and nearly as perfect at the other end of a 7-foot couch.
As for power, I run a pair of Vacuum Tube Audio M-125 monoblocks (each with four KT-88- 6550-type tubes in push-pull configuration) and Roy Mottram tube preamps. In triode mode the monoblocks step down to about 65 watts per side and I am able to rattle the dishes three houses down the street with cannon-fire on 1812 Overture; however the true joy is hearing the difference between the "tink" of a cymbal most speakers give you to the "ding" the Vandies deliver.
Agreed with all above posters, it's GIGO. Feed the Vandersteen 5A Carbons fresh lobster and they'll serve you fresh lobster. Feed 'em canned tuna and that's what'll come out. They neither add nor subtract anything from your playback media. Therein their beauty.
Not mentioned by others here, but IMO vital, is that these wonderful speakers be discreetly bi-wired as the manual recommends. I was bi-wiring through a single four-conductor Canares cable and was quite content. One bored afternoon I doubled-up with some extra cable, nothing fancy, for true bi-wiring and "WHOMP!!" the backside of the soundstage just fell away. An unbelievable improvement over what I already thought was perfection. Don't ask my why; it makes no sense electrically. (I've since upgraded the speaker cabling and connections a bit, none of that $1,000 a foot crap, but nothing made the improvement of the magnitude that discrete bi-wiring does, even if you have to use lamp cord.)
One caution if you're going to spend Lamborghini money on custom cables: Be sure the speaker ends are spades that will fit the rather smallish connectors on the back of the speaks. For DIY cables, Audioquest makes a silver spade that fits just right for 10-12 gauge wire; otherwise you'll likely spend a few hours on a grinding wheel.
Bottom line is: the 5A Carbons have eliminated one baffling and very expensive variable in the hi-fi equation. They are, to my ear, invisible.

I've been hearing several people say as of late that the Vandersteens are overpriced, which I don't agree with as of now, but this is the first time that someone has actually suggested an alternative.  I'll have to go listen to Tyler Acoustics.

+1 regarding the Vandersteen 1Ci.  I'm trying to really reconcile why I'd need anything more.  I've been considering them for a few years now.  Been buying more expensive monitors that I really question whether they are any better than the Vandy 1s.  With the Belles integrated or some Quicksilver tubes I'd probably be set for good.

..just finished listening to Carman (Bernstein, Horn) on my Vandersteen 5A’s/all Ayre electronics with VPI Superscout/rimdrive/classic platter/3D arm/Ortofon Winfield cart......Its like you were right there. (The orchestra was clearly mic’d better than the singers, (soloists all had their own)....but quite wonderful. There is no kind of music that requires good equipment than does big scale opera.

I can understand the OP point-of-view.  Vandys are not bad, at all.
Careful gear and cabling matching are paramount. As much as I enjoyed the "2" series, I went w/ Thiel. Specifically, the CS 2.4SE loudspeakers.
These do not falter on any musical genre. Happy Listening!

Jafant
As you should at 4 x the price of ordinary 2's
And as you are very well aware, Jim T ( RIP ) is a designer prehaps the designer most aligned with Richard on basic design parameters and philosophy...

And Theils Jim's anyway are -/$&@! Fine speakers

Johnny R., hate to disappoint you, but I'm not on Tyler's payroll. Again, my only beef with the Vandies (other than price) is that at least in my listening room, you have a very limited "sweet spot," off-axis of which you're missing their true value. Here's what I got for the 100 percent dealer mark-up:
I had to fly the guy over from Seattle to Spokane (at my expense) and back, and spring for lunch plus drive 360 miles of driving from Spokane to where we live and back. He spent about 5 minutes with a $10 Radium Shack dosimeter optimizing the speaks, then the rest of the day trying to push a billion-dollar set of Audioquest speaker cables and interconnects on me. The Vandies benefit immensely from bi-wiring, even at the Blue Jeans Cable level, and placement relative to the back wall and toe-in/toe-out can work wonders. No flies on them, but I would put Tylers' Highlands of Decade D12x's up against the 5AC carbons any old day. Insofar as speakers are probably the most subjective of components in a good sound system, and I sure haven't heard 'em all so I'm no expert. Suffice to say I'm happy with what I've got now and won't be looking for something different anytime soon.

Bewoods, I have had the same opinion of Vandersteen 2ce & 3a sig for years.  I owned a pair of 2ce sigs and the midrange driver just could not handle orchestral works.  Gritty strings, congestion and all that, drove me crazy.  Tried them with top notch amps, Belles, Bryston, Cary, made no difference.  I went to the same dealer to demo the 3A sigs and although they were better, I still was not thrilled with symphonic pieces.  I then got hold of ET Lft8Bs and it was a night and day difference in the upper mids and highs.  However, they had issues with bass so the seach continued.