Using PA Speakers In A Home "Audiophile" Application!
Hi guys,
I am a bit inspired to explore/trial usage of a pair of PA speakers at home after i attended a live event recently.
I looked at some Yamaha PA models and zoomed in on one that isn't too huge/heavy, relatively easy to move around perhaps.
Are there any audiophiles here who had relative satisfaction trying such speakers at home? I am also thinking that this may not be a great idea, but, just curious at the moment.
First: Generalizations are only occasionally useful :)
Second: Your own listening habits and hobby goals have a big role in what equipment best serves you. There’s a parallel in the car hobby. People have daily drivers, but also some other car(s) that they drive only on nice days and often spend more time tinkering with it than actually driving it. Ask that person what they expect from the experience…and you’ll get a different answer for the daily driver or the garage queen.
I have powered DXR12 Yammy... dynamics are awesome and electronic music is sublime.This speaker will wake up any recording... down side is the white noise at idle. For a summer-patio rig it cannot be beat. I move alot for work and these high quality PA kit are easier to sell fast for decent money.
@deep_333My concern would be breakups in the drivers, which cause distortion and harshness. PA stuff mostly does not care about that sort of thing since sound pressure is the main goal. But its a big deal with home audio speakers, where such things can shoot the product down.
My concern would be breakups in the drivers, which cause distortion and harshness. PA stuff mostly does not care about that sort of thing since sound pressure is the main goal. But its a big deal with home audio speakers, where such things can shoot the product down.
@atmasphere, Thanks for the input... I am leaning more towards this 3 way design for reasons mentioned above. It isn’t all that cheap, however...$3000 - 3500 a piece ($6000 - 7000$ for a pair). Nevertheless, since this is 106 db sensitive/possibly running at fractions of a watt for home listening levels...what type of "audiophile grade" home audio amplifier might you recommend?
Other thoughts: I did some searches and found some notes on Benchmark’s website...may be a good fit?
"The Benchmark AHB2 is the only high-powered amplifier that is designed to be noiseless when driving very high-efficiency speakers. The A-weighted signal to noise ratio is 132 dB in stereo mode (135 dB in mono mode). This is 17 to 30 dB quieter than the best competing amplifiers. More importantly, the A-weighted output noise of the AHB2 is -112 dB relative to 2.83 volts. Since speaker voltage sensitivity is measured at 2.83 volts, we can use the sensitivity to calculate the acoustic noise produced by the amplifier-speaker combination. If we select the worst case, an extremely sensitive 110 dB speaker, the acoustic noise will be -2 dB SPL at 1 meter from the speaker. This means that the acoustic noise is 2 dB lower than the threshold of normal hearing. This indicates that the noise produced by the AHB2 should be inaudible in this worst-case example.
In contrast, most high-quality amplifiers produce a noise voltage that is 17 to 30 dB higher than that of the AHB2. When these competing amplifiers are connected to 110 dB speakers the acoustic noise will be 15 dB to 28 dB above the threshold of hearing! The AHB2 may be the only power amplifier that is capable of noise-free operation when driving extremely sensitive speakers."
Small amounts of crossover distortion produced by push-pull transitions in the output stage may translate into audible defects. This is especially true when driving high-sensitivity speakers. High-sensitivity speakers can reveal the shortcomings of traditional class-AB amplifiers. It is not surprising that many people do not like the way high-sensitivity speakers sound when driven from a class-AB amplifier.Benchmark AHB2 1W Distortion Level.
The AHB2 uses a patented feed-forward error correction system to eliminate crossover distortion. This system provides 1st-watt performance that exceeds that of a class-A amplifier"
Might you have any other amplifier suggestions for this "PA experiment", $5000-ish & under?
I suppose my Klipsch “Jubilees” (535 bass bin/402 horn) from their Pro Cinema catalog might be stretched to call a PA speaker. Although designed for active application I run mine with passive crossovers and Faital compression drivers on the 402 horn. Yes, they can and will run you out of the room but yes again, at 105 db sensitivity they can be remarkably tame and sublime with flea watt amps. If you’re looking for immersive, direct, front soundstage experience look no further. Top to bottom horn loaded bass is something to behold. Are they living room acceptable, no. But with all this I am thoroughly enjoying my relatively new Coheret Audio coaxial 12 GR. A wonderful change of pace -
With regards to the Benchmark amps, I use two as monoblocks with the Jubilees. They are extremely quiet through these big horns. But honestly no more so than any of the First Watt amps I use -
@deep_333You will need a low noise amp for that and also one that has low gain, otherwise the noise floor of the amp won't be much help. The Benchmark, while excellent, as over 30dB which means you'll notice noise from your front end.
Our class D amp is quiet (but not that quiet) but it only has 22dB of gain.
I think you'll have to try things out and see what works. High efficiency speakers are often a challenge that way.
SET amps often have only 15 dB of gain, sometime even less. But their noise floors are not as good as our amp but that doesn't mean they won't work. But you would be looking for low noise tubes...
I don't think an SET is a good idea with this speaker since its designed with the idea that the amp can behave as a voltage source. SETs can't do that so you'd have a tonal coloration due to frequency response errors.
My concern would be breakups in the drivers, which cause distortion and harshness. PA stuff mostly does not care about that sort of thing since sound pressure is the main goal. But its a big deal with home audio speakers, where such things can shoot the product down.
I don't know the specific product referred to by poster @deep_333, but as a claim aimed at pro drivers in general your statement is incorrect. If there are breakup modes prevalent here it's most likely due to a driver section being used outside it's recommended frequency range, and not because the drivers are more prone to breakups as such than "home audio" variants or very expensive, boutique equivalents - unless we're speaking beryllium diaphragms in the MF/HF drivers, which extend more cleanly into the upper octaves for a given diaphragm diameter. Motorforce is a factor as well, but hardly applicable as a significant contributor in this context.
Moreover, as a design intended for active configuration there are obvious advantages using steeper filter slopes, and thus avoid severe driver overlapping as you would with passive designs. This not least is a factor with horn-loading. Modern pro drivers (and even ones decades old) are extremely well designed, and used within their design parameters - not least actively - will yield no effective problems with breakup modes.
Nevertheless, since this is 106 db sensitive/possibly running at fractions of a watt for home listening levels...what type of "audiophile grade" home audio amplifier might you recommend?
I can say for certain pictured PA speakers above aren't 106dB sensitive overall. The direct radiating woofers are in the 96-99dB sensitivity range, although the horns above are +100dB sensitive. If they were passively configured then the system sensitivity would be dictated by the least efficient driver section (with the horns above dialed down to match LF), which are the woofers here. Since these are intended for active config. a staggered sensitivity rating for each drivers section should be stated.
With regard to amp matching, Ralph is the meastro here in giving advice. Noise can be an issue though with +100dB sensitive drivers coupled directly to amps without any passive filters in between, which can be partly alleviated with higher impedance drivers of 16 ohms, or simply a fitting resistor size in series over the MF/HF section.
I recently built a pair of horn based, coaxial floor standers using Radian (pro) drivers. These (and similar) have been used to great success by Live Act Audio, Daniel Hertz, Coherent Audio, Spatial Audio and others, in various sizes, boxes, open baffle, on and on…you get the picture. With proper “Home Audio, audiophile” crossovers and proper enclosures, the Prototypes I made allowed me to break free from 40 years of Panel speakers. (I had Quad 63, Martin Logan ESL and Eminent Technology LFT 8 all at the same time until this past year and have sold them all on CAM). The experimental (first) pair I built are so good that I may not commit to the Ultimate Version I had planned. I now enjoy All the detail and imaging but with real Dynamic Range!
Try the Pro Audio stuff but take the above advice of others here and be aware of Pro Crossovers and enclosures, as they both are not suitable for home use.
Enjoy the experience of trying Something Completely Different
Could you suggest an "audiophile grade" active crossover?
Like poster @kckrs suggested, the Xilica XP-series is very good - I use the XP-3060 model myself. There’s also the Danville Signal dspNexux 2/8, which has received some positive feedback. More on the Danville at this Audiogon thread.
DEQX seems to be at the top of DSP/DAC units, albeit more pricey. Maybe poster @mijostyncan elaborate more on them.
Can I get away without a active crossover and just ’passive biamping’ on this speaker, i.e, four channels of amplification--> 2 full range stereo/L/R channels going to the 2 big woofers and 2 fullrange stereo/L/R channels going to both midrange/tweeter combos.
If I didn’t have to buy anything/make do with existing equipment...
Schiit Tyr mono 1 ---> Left woofer
Schiit Tyr mono 2 ---> Right woofer
Jungson JA99 class A or Yamaha M5000--> left mid/tweeter, right mid/tweeter...if either one of them feels like the noise floor isn’t low enough, replace/try out the Benchmark AHB2 (supposedly miracle noisefloor) is the current plan. The Benchmark amp would be additional expense and would like to avoid, if possible.
Preamp.: Yamaha C5000
Source: Technics SLG700 (sacd+streamer)
Subwoofers: Rythmik F12G
Other thoughts: I could pop out the drivers and add copious amounts of the no-rez material from Danny Ritchie inside the cabinet, if needed.
I was hoping I could stay "relatively purist" on this rig and not go to town with dsp/processors.
For decades, audiophiles would sneer at them, calling them, among other things I won’t repeat here, “PA speakers”.
Well, I’ve been happy with them, and like clothing fashions, what goes around comes around and they’ve made a comeback.
They move a lot of air. Imho, that is one of their prime virtues. Matched with the right amps, they are heaven. I wouldn’t trade them for anything, and I haven’t.
I do not have my unit yet, a Pre 8, but it should be shipped any day.
DEQX has been in business for quite a while. since 1995 I think. Their previous units were very well excepted by those who had no problems with the steep learning curve. They were limited by the slower processors that were available at the time. The newest processors are way faster and more powerful. The new units are much more user friendly and were supposed to be available 2 years ago, but covid screwed them up (processor availability), they had to switch to an even more powerful, but more expensive processor which required changes to the main circuit board. There are three units, the Pre 4, Pre 8 and LS200, a 200 watt/ch integrated. The Pre 4 has four DAC channels for mains and subwoofers and the Pre 8 has 8 DAC channels, triamp mains and subwoofers. The Pre 8 will retail for $13,000. The price of the others has not been released yet. The Pre 8 is being released first to a select group of individuals who will test the beta programming. I should have mine shortly.
All three units use the same 64 bit floating point processor. The DEQX system is unique in that it tests the near field response of the speakers before testing the room. It can determine and isolate speaker problems from room problems. Once it is set up the user has an exceptional amount of flexibility in term of adjusting the sound to taste. All units use the same subwoofer management system which again is very flexible with high resolution choices of crossover points and slopes. The processor automatically adjusts phase and timing. Presets allow for the easy selection of sonic palettes one might use for various situations For instance you might have one preset with a Gundry Dip in it for sibilant recordings. You might have presets for different volumes (loudness correction). A favorite trick of mine is to have presets for different listening positions. The computer will adjust the timing and phase of the speakers so that any seat in the room becomes the listening position like my desk at the rear left corner of the room. All units have a phono stage which was developed with Dynavector and is supposed to be pretty good although it is high output only. I'll certainly report on that as I plan on getting a transformer to go with my MC Diamond and perhaps a few high output cartridges. My current phono stage does not have a high output section.
Because the Pre 8 has a 4 way crossover you can turn any loudspeaker into an active speaker, each driver having it's own amplifier. I plan on using it as a three way system, 2 channels for the low frequency transformers of the Sound Labs, two for the high frequency transformers and two for the subwoofers. The Atma-Sphere MA 2s will drive the low frequency transformers, a Bricasti M25 will drive the high frequency transformers and two QSC PL380s will drive the subwoofers. Crossover points will be at 100 Hz and 5 kHz.
Modern pro drivers (and even ones decades old) are extremely well designed, and used within their design parameters - not least actively - will yield no effective problems with breakup modes.
@phusisI've run into breakups in older designs (like Altec, with their aluminum diaphragms) and also in newer designs, like the JBL speakers I use for my keyboard setup. If I get over a certain volume, the speaker doesn't handle it that well (gets harsh) so it does seem like I'm setting off a breakup in the horn.
My speakers at home use beryllium diaphragms; the first breakup is at 35kHz.
I haven’t read the entire thread, so this might have already been mentioned.
But if one cares at all about imaging and soundstage, then pa speakers should be avoided.
I have heard dozens of pa speakers at many different price points in home systems, driven by good quality amps, and have never heard a wide, deep soundstage, with good layering, nor precise placement of musicians within it.
They all tend to project the music out into the listening space, and reproduce it in a very flat (not talking about frequency response).
I have heard dozens of pa speakers at many different price points in home systems, driven by good quality amps, and have never heard a wide, deep soundstage, with good layering, nor precise placement of musicians within it.
The culprit is largely PA electronics, imo. For example, I’ve tried Crown amps on my hifi rig and the soundstage flattening is immediate. I have also observed it when trying out Mcintosh hifi amps (not meaning to offend any Mcintosh users)...the flat wall of sound with no depth, layering and nuance. Denafrips dac --> Luxman, Schiit, Yamaha hifi amps, etc should remedy that situation...is my theory for now/will know an answer in the next month.
If you are ever in Southern California, you need to come to my house and hear what PA components set in the right cabinets can do for imaging and soundstage, clarity, and precision of instrument and vocal placement.
Some of the "PA" components are/were of extremely high quality and placed in the right cabinets, driven by the right electronics, can do just as well as the high priced spread of today.
For example, take the 18" and 9.5" JBLs I used in the Mermans. You really think some Parts Express woofer is the same quality? You really need to step up your game to come close, and I’ve had people say that my speakers can "out-image" systems costing 6 figures. I do use a modified Great Heil AMT over 2.5kHz.
Remember that back in the ’60s, 70s, and 80s, JBL would use many of the same components in their PA systems as they did in their studio monitors used in mix-down of so much of the music that we still love.
I’ve run into breakups in older designs (like Altec, with their aluminum diaphragms) and also in newer designs, like the JBL speakers I use for my keyboard setup. If I get over a certain volume, the speaker doesn’t handle it that well (gets harsh) so it does seem like I’m setting off a breakup in the horn.
My speakers at home use beryllium diaphragms; the first breakup is at 35kHz.
That’s not much of a basis for qualified comparison here. Which JBL’s are those, and how are they (or the Altec’s) representative of a whole segment of speakers?
Look, I believe we’ve been here before, but there’s nothing to support the narrative inkling towards modern pro drivers, or even a range of older dittos, being in particular marred by breakup modes. There’s tons of great pro drivers and horns out there with solid R&D behind them, and they don’t suddenly turn harsh when pushed - believe me. If they did they’d be out of business. Of course you could find cheaper "weaklings" among them with sub optimum horn profiles, flimsy material choice, less than stellar drivers and overall execution, and they would be the easy and even convenient target for field coil-, beryllium diaphragm-fitted and lovely hardwood housed speakers like your no doubt great Classic Audio Loudspeakers to make a case against them.
Instead choose someone your own size, as they say; it would be most interesting to put together an all-out combination of partly DIY, off the shelf quality pro driver-fitted horn-based speaker setup at a likely much cheaper price, actively configured with horn subs and all, and then have a showdown for a more fair comparison. I’m not trying to belittle speakers as the ones you own, on the contrary, but if we want to make this a fair fight then let’s have the other party pull out their big guns as well :)
That’s not much of a basis for qualified comparison here. Which JBL’s are those, and how are they (or the Altec’s) representative of a whole segment of speakers?
Look, I believe we’ve been here before, but there’s nothing to support the narrative inkling towards modern pro drivers, or even a range of older dittos, being in particular marred by breakup modes. There’s tons of great pro drivers and horns out there with solid R&D behind them, and they don’t suddenly turn harsh when pushed - believe me. If they did they’d be out of business. Of course you could find cheaper "weaklings" among them with sub optimum horn profiles, flimsy material choice, less than stellar drivers and overall execution, and they would be the easy and even convenient target for field coil-, beryllium diaphragm-fitted and lovely hardwood housed speakers like your no doubt great Classic Audio Loudspeakers to make a case against them.
@phusis You make a really good case- most of my experience with the speakers I mentioned didn't include any investigation of what was actually causing the harshness. I assumed a breakup because I got to compare a beryllium diaphragm made for the old Altec horn against the stock aluminum unit; I have to assume that difference really was on account of the differences in the diaphragms.
The JBL to which I referred is the JRX115. Seems to me we had an expanded version of that speaker in the studio that used the same horn driver. A lower (not rock concert) levels it was pretty convincing in the mids and highs. It uses a Titanium diaphragm in the midrange.
My CARs use a JBL tractrix horn which seems to work really well. He has since replaced this horn with a machined maple horn; but as I understand it his maple horns correct an error that was in the TAD maple horns he used to use.
@ditusaIts worth noting that my drivers use a beryllium diaphragm (as you probably already surmised); the driver is also modified to run a field coil. As far as I'm concerned, JBL knows what they are doing with their horn structures- I've seen no reason to replace mine. The diaphragm uses a Kapton surround so doesn't act weird when you get near the cutoff frequency. As a result its fine with a 6dB/octave crossover.
I use Cabinet Speakers for my periods of listening to Blues Music.
I spent much of my Teens and 20's in small venues being up close and personal to Pa Speakers watching Performers on stage.
These were the days where my keen interest in audio was seeded.
As an individual interested in audio equipment and the sound produced, I ended up with ESL Speakers., for myself these speakers types have ticked many boxes.
ESL Speakers are as a result of my 20+ Years of using them not able to create the recollection and impression that a live music venue is being mimicked.
Cabinet Speakers are the tool for the Job, I have had Cabinet Speakers periodically in use with the system for many many years. I have moved on from very coloured presentation designs and have ones with less Cabinet Influences in use now.
I have no issues having multi speakers to be used to create the sound that delivers what is most attractive for a particular Genre of music, in my world, both Blues and Live Blues recordings are worthy of it
@arnold_h, Tekton has all kinds of speakers, way too many for a small company, if you ask me...hard to say if Eric Alexander's eccentricity has any patterns associated with it, 😉
The culprit is largely PA electronics, imo. For example, I’ve tried Crown amps on my hifi rig and the soundstage flattening is immediate. I have also observed it when trying out Mcintosh hifi amps (not meaning to offend any Mcintosh users)...the flat wall of sound with no depth, layering and nuance. Denafrips dac --> Luxman, Schiit, Yamaha hifi amps, etc should remedy that situation...is my theory for now/will know an answer in the next month.
Not in the various circumstances I've heard them in.
Everything from: modern tube amps (low powered 300B, to high powered push-pull), Nelson Pass class A, high powered A-B, vintage amps, etc.
Not all of them have been in well treated rooms, but most were on the better side of home living rooms,
Some certainly sounded better than others, but none of the gear made any appreciable difference in soundstage and imaging.
If you are ever in Southern California, you need to come to my house and hear what PA components set in the right cabinets can do for imaging and soundstage, clarity, and precision of instrument and vocal placement.
Some of the "PA" components are/were of extremely high quality and placed in the right cabinets, driven by the right electronics, can do just as well as the high priced spread of today.
For example, take the 18" and 9.5" JBLs I used in the Mermans. You really think some Parts Express woofer is the same quality? You really need to step up your game to come close, and I’ve had people say that my speakers can "out-image" systems costing 6 figures. I do use a modified Great Heil AMT over 2.5kHz.
Remember that back in the ’60s, 70s, and 80s, JBL would use many of the same components in their PA systems as they did in their studio monitors used in mix-down of so much of the music that we still love.
I live in the San Fernando Valley, just outside of LA.
Who said I was comparing any drivers to "some Parts Express drivers"? But there are plenty of other companies that carry higher end drivers, anyway.
I am a big fan of HEIL drivers. I've used them in the past in a couple of projects.
As an individual interested in audio equipment and the sound produced, I ended up with ESL Speakers., for myself these speakers types have ticked many boxes.
ESL Speakers are as a result of my 20+ Years of using them not able to create the recollection and impression that a live music venue is being mimicked.
Cabinet Speakers are the tool for the Job, I have had Cabinet Speakers periodically in use with the system for many many years. I have moved on from very coloured presentation designs and have ones with less Cabinet Influences in use now.
I have no issues having multi speakers to be used to create the sound that delivers what is most attractive for a particular Genre of music, in my world, both Blues and Live Blues recordings are worthy of it
@pindac....Here are some preliminary results from my PA experiment, i.e. "higher end" (as far as PA is concerned with solid cabinets, etc) PA horns tied to "high end" hifi electronics. In addition to uninhibited dynamics, there is a very high level of detail being perceived in a non-abrasive manner (surprisingly) on gentler genres of music. I couldn’t say the latter about some old JBL synthesis/Greg Timbers’ stuff i used to have, i.e., my other point of reference for this type of speaker. They got a bit abrasive, if you pushed it. The Yamahas are "smoother" with better tonal balance. Anyways, I attribute this type of detail to the fact that these are drivers designed for extreme SPLs (120db+) for sustained periods in large venues and still sound decent. When I’m running them at home @ 85ish db, these speakers are barely getting pushed at fractions of a watt, i.e., distortion levels are remarkably low and compression is nil.
Speakers are the gross bottleneck in pursuit of detail and resolution (besides the room). But, guys end up chasing their tail with subtler electronics and wire at some point instead. It appears to me that the hifi speakers that are believed to be highly resolving (in hifi circles) are not really all that resolving. If they get close enough, they just end up too abrasive or analytical, pull you back from the music again.
"Live" is maybe a combination of uninhibited dynamics, sound power, resolution, detail.....and clarity (nobody talks about clarity), as far as "measurable" metrics go...all of this is in a non-analytical package perhaps....ESLs are a bit of an anomaly and a curiosity for me. Perhaps, they fulfill some of the measurable metrics, but extremely hard to get a low end driver integrated.
Downside, of course, is...most PA speakers are hard on the eyes including the ones i am experimenting with (WAF = poor, wouldn’t be permitted in my living room even on a blue moon day). But, if I closed my eyes, it is hifi full and square!
I have been demo's Two DIY Built Speaker designs both using a same Company Speaker an the same model range.
Each Driver was a full range PA dual concentric, one was a 15" model and the other a 18" model.
Cabinets were substantial in materials and bracings.
I heard the on occasion over three years prior to Covid, and each time seemingly something more attractive was present.
Both Builders were very willing to make it known, the Drivers only started to really impress after the 300 Hour of usage period and recommended methods to keep them working to fast track to these hours.
I'm using PA drivers and horns and cabs (Peavey FH1 bass horn) in my main system, but the difference between a hi-fi setup and a pro PA set-up most often lies in the crossover. If you're after max SPL you probably go with different frequency crossovers and slopes - to protect the drivers from over excursion or over heating - than when your goal is maximum fidelity and smooth transition between drivers and phase coherency. That makes a HUGE difference.
Still, I'm sure that there are pro speakers that could be used in a home environment but those are far from the majority.
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