When using a maple butcher block under a turntable, what is below the butcher block? Cone? Soborthane pucks? Does it just lay on the shelf? What are people using and how of they mounting the block? How are they mounting the table on the butcher block?
@stringreen Great thought and common sense overlooked! The table currently sits on a robust set of shelves on which also rests some electronics and hold around 1,000 records. Maybe not the best place to place a turntable.
My listening area in a finished basement room. I can spike a rack to the basement floor, spike the (new) Chop Block board to the rack and use original StillPoint cones on which to mount the Aries Extended. Hadn't thought to remove the Aries "feet" but they are not in use, that's a no-brainer with this config.
All I'm REALLY trying to do is get rid of some warmth that seems to be coming from the table (vinyl chain). I know it's not the electronics (all Herron Audio) and have pretty much isolated it to the arm (JMW Memorial 12) or table itself.
At the amplification used for mc carts, it's easy to pick up very tiny signals or resonances outside of the music.
My listening room is up on the second floor so I had to come with a mounting scheme to isolate my turntable (Technics SP10 MKII/ Basis Vector IV arm in Technics Obsidian plinth). I got the large Target wall mount shelf..I removed the standard MDF shelf and spikes...Replaced the spikes with these threaded rubber/cork blocks from Mapleshade that screw into the target shelf. I got a 3" maple butcher block shelf from "Dawn's Platforms" here on Agon that sits on top of those Mapleshade blocks...I removed the crap feet from the Technical Obsidian plinth and replace with Stillpoints...that sit between the plinth and the maple shelf. It works well for me.
nuttin'honey....just butcher block on a table. Surely you can try whatever you care to, but VPI designed solid suspension works with the block. Rid yourself of the damper feet and replace them with Bearpaws (very large brass cones...returnable if not wanted) Suspended chasis work best with lightweight tables. I tried Vibrapods....just muddied up the sound. Experimentation is fun however
“But...putting the springs beneath can it seems add a tiny bit more ring-off when the turntable itself is tapped (thinking of turntable born-resonance, rumble here, possibly being slightly amplified by being placed on springs).
So...the best approach I could come up with is: use springs, but holding up fairly heavy materials above. If the object held by the springs is too light then you get some feedback if the turntable is pinged sitting on the springs. But the more weight you place between the turntable and the springs. the lower the feedback to the springs.
Once you have a heavy base atop the springs it seems to be the best of both worlds: tap or stomp beneath the bass and the springs do a great job of isolating vibration to the turntable above them. But tap the turntable or the maple block above the springs, and that too produces even less vibration (measurable with the ipad app) than the turntable sitting on just a shelf or on just the maple block.”
>>>>>>>Wow! I didn’t think it was possible but your research into vibration isolation completely failed to turn up an explanation of mass-on-spring isolation. Should I be flabbergasted? 😮 Quick tutorial : You have to match the spring rate to the mass! The total spring rate equals the spring rate per spring x no. of springs. You want to obtain the lowest possible resonant frequency for the iso stand which is inversely proportion to square root of total mass and proportional to square root of total spring rate? It’s not rocket science. 🚀
bpoletti, I can't give you any solid knowledge on this issue. Even when I tried to get info, suggestions were all over the place. You can't do one thing that another audiophile will telly you is Absolutely The Wrong Way To Go!So take whatever I contribute with a grain of salt. I went down the rabbit hole "researching" (on a layman's level) many isolation materials and the various footers, isolators etc. I used a siesmometer app on my ipad, to get objective read outs of vibration isolation, and used the "hand test" (what I could feel coming through and other off the cuff techniques as well. So...not exactly lab work. But the best I could do given the wilderness of contrasting opinions. I ended up with a 2 1/2" thick maple block, atop various materials but most importantly:
The single most effective isolators were spring based - in my case Townsend Isolation Pods. They measured, and felt, vastly more effective than any other material or footer I tried (sorbothane, vibrapods, Isoacoustics pucks, etc).
That is for stopping major vibrations getting TOO the turntable on top of a block held upon those springs. Stamp the floor around the turntable and you can feel virtually nothing, and the seismometer app registers very small readings vs the huge spikes without the springs.
But...putting the springs beneath can it seems add a tiny bit more ring-off when the turntable itself is tapped (thinking of turntable born-resonance, rumble here, possibly being slightly amplified by being placed on springs). So...the best approach I could come up with is: use springs, but holding up fairly heavy materials above. If the object held by the springs is too light then you get some feedback if the turntable is pinged sitting on the springs. But the more weight you place between the turntable and the springs. the lower the feedback to the springs. Once you have a heavy base atop the springs it seems to be the best of both worlds: tap or stomp beneath the bass and the springs do a great job of isolating vibration to the turntable above them. But tap the turntable or the maple block above the springs, and that too produces even less vibration (measurable with the ipad app) than the turntable sitting on just a shelf or on just the maple block.
I've read some posts by some folks who seem quite experienced with these techniques who came to the same conclusion: best is springs incorporated into the system, but make sure they are holding up something heavy enough to also dampen any major ringing feedback from the springs. Again...take all that for what it's worth: just another audiophile who tried to answer these same questions. I'm quite happy with the way my base turned out.
I don’t think there’s a simple answer to this question. It depends on the floor, the rack, and the turntable. I’d try different things. I have 2 turntables. My equipment rack has 3" wood maple shelves that sit on small sorbothane bumpers and it sits on a concrete floor. The TT is more than 8’ away from the speakers (as noted, the further away the better).
My old HW-19 VPI TT (unsuspended) sounds best with an older variant of Herbies sorbothane pucks underneath it. I didn’t like the sound of them under my TW Acustic TT (122 lbs!). However, with the TW, I still hear some noise from the speakers if I rap hard enough on the wood maple shelf it sits on, so it’s not yet fully optimized.
I’d buy several cheap isolators people suggested or make your own (skip the Spam & DelMonte except for dinner?) and try them all out. Good luck experimenting!
FWIW, Steinway & Sons uses kiln dried wood. As do most other significant instrument makers of our time, such as guitar makers Martin, Gibson, Fender, and Rickenbacker.
Stradivarius, in 1644, likely did not.
Interesting case study on Kiln Drying Upgrade by Steinway & Sons
My TT is a Technics SL1210M5G. I use a combination of Vibrapod Cones and Vibrapod Isolators under the turntable itself, and placed on top of a Michigan Maple butcher block cutting board. It's pretty massive at 20"w x 15"d x 3.5"h (I think it weighs as much as the turntable). I felt I needed something to isolate room vibrations from traveling up into the turntable. On the advice of a disco DJ (who used a similar turntable) I bought a pair of Fellowes silicone gel wrist pads made for computer keyboards. The DJ said they'd do a great job of keeping bassy feedback out of the signal chain. He was right. I've had my turntable/butcher block stack resting on top of those wrist rests for around 8 years now with no desire to change anything.
@tuzarupa, small world, the table I had in play when I purchased my Lead Ballon was an AR EB101 and it seemed to work well for that set up, but what did I know. I just pulled my Arcci LB out of the attic a few years ago when I bought my Prime to replace a Scoutmaster that was inside my Salamander cabinet and the Prime would not fit, I sandblasted it, powder coated, added a middle support for a shelf at dead center and installed 2" maple shelves to support my tube mono amps to let them breath also adding mass to the structure by their shear weight also replaced the Iso Physics tone cones on the bottom with Herbies Giant Threaded Stud Gliders finally loading the legs of the stand with a mix of sand and Lead shot. Although I was just looking for a temporary set up to get me by the results have been stunning allowing me to move on to other things.
@tooblue, thanks for the information. I happen to have a 1 1/2 " thick slab of maple from my sisters kitchen remodel; countertop. Should fit the bill for an experiment. Not sure if I'll hear a huge change as my TT is a 1985 AR with a SME III tonearm. Not quite the instrument you have in your setup but I dearly love it. I'm thinking the AR suspension may cause it to be less sensitive to a number of environmental factors. But, one can never be sure until one actually experiments. So I will give it a go.
I abandoned the Arcicci lead balloon 🎈 a long time ago, too, especially after I came to the conclusion that lead as a material is just plain bad for the sound almost anywhere and in almost any amount. Yes, I know what you’re thinking - “but it’s such a good material for damping, not too soft, not too hard, and very dense. Just right.” I also concluded that the tall members of the Arcicci stand are tootall and therefore prone to moving at low frequencies due to seismic forces. As are many racks in general. That is coincidentally about the time real vibration iso stands came into vogue. Townshend, Mana, Bright Star, Vibraplane, etc.
@tuzarupa, I have long abandoned the Lead bars supplied by Arcci, found them to rob the liveliness from the table and I also tend to find brass and carbon fiber to have the same negative effect when it comes to setting up my tables.
@tooblue : "I start out with my trusty, fully loaded with lead shot and sand, Lead
Balloon by Arcci then I place my maple platform directly on top of the
Lead Ballons turntable support shelf which has adjustable spikes to
level things out"Just wondering why you are not using the original lead bars that Arcci supplied for placement on top of the support shelf. These were intended for the turntable feet. Did you find the maple platform to be a better platform for the TT? I still use mine but am wondering if I'm missing something.
A company called Anvil Turntables used to make a similar product like opposing magnetic isolation feet but you can’t access their site anymore. Curious.
I made some of those opposing magnet isolation feet about 25 years ago for a lightweight Optimus CD player. For lightweight things like that making the magnetic iso feet is not difficult but for heavy things you would have to figure out the size magnets to use and there is the added issue of the danger involved working with very powerful magnets. In addition, there’s the issue with magnetic suspensions involving how opposing magnets slip horizontally creating a slight path for vibration to travel. Nevertheless, it’s a very interesting idea.
Recently purchased an RPM 9.2 turntable. Pictured on Icon. It comes with steel shot inside the plinth. Best of all, it has three large feet nearly the diameter of a Campbell’s soup can that have big opposing magnets inside such that it actually floats the entire table on a cushion of magnetic resistance, so to speak. You can push down on one side and it will lean and then gently pop back up level. Its one of the best vibration isolation systems I’ve seen. Like floating on air bags but it’s polar magnetism. No interference anywhere. I have a music listening room built above my two stall garage and spec’d some hearty beams to span the floor underneath. It resulted in some low frequency springing when I’d walk across the room towards the table. Like big leaf springs in a truck. Could not feel it myself, but I could literally see it in my subwoofer, the cone would pulsate with steps. Not any more. I’m thinking someone ought to make these type of opposing magnetic feet as an add on tweak.
And I forgot to mention that some of the most expensive vintage and new turntable plinths use the same technique also, except with a butcher block and a lot of the newer turntables on the market today, there is hardly none to no void - for the vibrations to travel through.
You’re actually half right. Sometimes people have nothing else better to do. I found my 1-1/4" thick butcher block at my aunt’s house. It was at least 20 years old and hadn’t been used in years. This particular block had round feet made out of the same material that I cut off with a trim saw. Got a bag of lemons and an orbital sander and used the lemon halves to clean the multiple layers on the top of block until I got down to virgin wood. Then finished sanding the entire block. Brushed and air hosed the block off, sealed and stained that bad boy.
This is where I disagree with you. When the carpenters, you know the same people that make those lovely danish mid century hutches and such that audiophiles love to put their turntables on, make the butcher blocks they use up to 1/2" thick pieces of hardwood that they glue together with the grain going in opposite directions with compression on all 4 sides which completely changes the characteristics and composition of the wood than if it was just made out of 1 solid piece. It ends up quite dense after those treatments. Now I know you can relate to that.
The butcher block cost me nothing, it did and does absorb vibrations and made a quieter less vibrating turntable base especially when I added the Hudson Hi-Fi Silicone Isolation Feet. And it looks good too. But you’ve done this before right? Because you know it has no effect on vibrations on a turntable.
Those danish mid century hutches with the beautiful laminate teak that audiophiles put their turntables on are made the same way and use the same technique as the lowly butcher block. And the same construction technique is used when making the most expensive speaker cabinets. Layers of wood going in different grain directions glued together in compression specifically for the vibrations they don’t produce .
[tfpic mode /on] The reason maple butcher block is used because there is a scarcity of The ideal material, solid blocks of argon. It's perfect, but very hard to keep in its solid state. [tfpic mode /off]
It seems that maple block is not the best material. Bamboo seems to sould better to many, but maple has been around for a long time. I think the reason is that it's better than most of the shelving material.
I also have used these Hudson Hi-Fi Silicone Isolation Feet (4 Pack, Soft Block 60lb capacity) for speaker, cd player and receiver feet. The above items and these here are by Hudson Hi-Fi and cost very little for what they do.
I used these Hudson Hi-Fi 4x 2.5" Platinum Silicone Hemisphere Bumper Non Skid Isolation Feet w. Adhesive - that were reasonably priced for my butcher block turntable base. They are easier to use and don’t have the sticky tacky feel of sorbothane.
Just to be sure I made my point, I actually did do a comparison of Del Monte Sauer Kraut in small cans to their Mandarin Orange slices in water, in small cans. I really chose the Orange slices because the ratio of water to solid is higher. I also placed a CF tiptoe under the bottom of each can, and yes, Geoff, I do use only 3 cans so as to define a plane. If you remove the paper label, the can itself has 3 parallel ribs around its circumference, to add strength. This also gives it a pleasing art deco look. The important thing is to believe in yourself.
Of the dairy food group I believe you’ll find whole eggs 🥚 🥚 🥚 are a delicious addition to your tweak box and are surprisingly strong when positioned as shown. You should find three eggs provide a very stable platform as three points determine a plane. Four eggs usually won’t determine a plane due to the slight variations in size of the eggs. Eggs-ackly! One variable is whether to use raw or boiled eggs. Let your ears decide. Another variable: Tips up or tips down? Let your ears decide.
Wow. Highly entertaining. I didn’t learn anything, but I laughed my ass off. Fortunately I was sitting on a 3 inch slab of maple, so my ass vibrations were highly damped.
@geoffkait One of the best characteristics of Spam is that it has no expiration date. It's good forever even if it's left out in the open at room temperature.
Special mix concrete isolation platform. More dense than normal concrete but a third of the weight. Works fantastic under everything. Can get them specially designed in any shape thickness or color.
This is not necessarily my opinion, but the folks at Mapleshade (most of you know who this is), say that butcher block maple, or any maple that is kiln dried cured (dried in large ovens), is the worst thing you can put under your turntable. He uses maple logs that have been sitting outside for years, to air dry. They claim this to be best. They also say it is the most non-resonant. Remember, this is their opinion.
You've never read, evidently, any of my old posts about using cans of Mandarin Orange slices in water, DelMonte brand only, as turntable footers. I did an A/B comparison to Del Monte sauer kraut; Mandarin Orange slices in water won. $2 per footer; you cannot go wrong. Both my Lenco and my Denon DP80, imbedded in slate slabs, rest on Mandarin Orange slices in water. I suspect maple syrup would result in a warm, colored sound.
Of the major food groups Spam is the king of dampers on butcher blocks. Not too soft, not too hard. Just right. And the best part is if Spam doesn’t ring your bell sound wise you can make some sandwiches with it.
Pour some maple syrup on your turntable. Then you’ve really got something. But seriously, audiophiles will argue over anything. Some will say that one kind of hardwood sounds better than another. And I have read pro and con arguments around the use of maple under components. In the end, if you’re happy, that’s good.
@ glupson - Be very careful! Mine implosions are dangerous. The results just suck. And beware! Most of the visitors to Iowa go missing. They just wander out into the fields and are never seen again. Rumor is they die of boredom, but nobody has gone on a rescue mission. They just aren't awake.
I have a friend who has built a stainless steel bath of glycol which floats a 5 inch wrapped foam block on which his table sits. Any floor movement is self corrected by the glycol which seems to control vibration as well. I think it is a an oil. Had a problem with displacement on his proto type but seems to work remarkably well now.
@glupson - LMAO is an abbreviation for Loose Molecular Attraction Oscillator. It an advanced audio component that mounts next to any power outlet used for audio equipment. It's purpose is to magnetically remove bad electrons and re-spin the remaining electrons to help remove RF and to create a more pure 60hz A/C current source. The device uses pure natural vacuum that comes from the vacuum mines in northern Iowa. A recent shortage of this particularly desirable vacuum was the result of a series of mine implosions. Most of the remaining vacuum is being stored in liquid form in 7 tanker cars on a railroad siding outside Bozeman, Montana.
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