Using Maple Butcher Block Under a Turntable

@invictus005 ,

You’re actually half right. Sometimes people have nothing else better to do. I found my 1-1/4" thick butcher block at my aunt’s house. It was at least 20 years old and hadn’t been used in years. This particular block had round feet made out of the same material that I cut off with a trim saw. Got a bag of lemons and an orbital sander and used the lemon halves to clean the multiple layers on the top of block until I got down to virgin wood. Then finished sanding the entire block. Brushed and air hosed the block off, sealed and stained that bad boy.

This is where I disagree with you. When the carpenters, you know the same people that make those lovely danish mid century hutches and such that audiophiles love to put their turntables on, make the butcher blocks they use up to 1/2" thick pieces of hardwood that they glue together with the grain going in opposite directions with compression on all 4 sides which completely changes the characteristics and composition of the wood than if it was just made out of 1 solid piece. It ends up quite dense after those treatments. Now I know you can relate to that.

The butcher block cost me nothing, it did and does absorb vibrations and made a quieter less vibrating turntable base especially when I added the Hudson Hi-Fi Silicone Isolation Feet. And it looks good too. But you’ve done this before right? Because you know it has no effect on vibrations on a turntable.

Those danish mid century hutches with the beautiful laminate teak that audiophiles put their turntables on are made the same way and use the same technique as the lowly butcher block. And the same construction technique is used when making the most expensive speaker cabinets. Layers of wood going in different grain directions glued together in compression specifically for the vibrations they don’t produce .

And I forgot to mention that some of the most expensive vintage and new turntable plinths use the same technique also, except with a butcher block and a lot of the newer turntables on the market today, there is hardly none to no void - for the vibrations to travel through.

Recently purchased an RPM 9.2 turntable.   Pictured on Icon.   It comes with steel shot inside the plinth.  Best of all, it has three large feet nearly the diameter of a Campbell’s soup can that have big opposing magnets inside such that it actually floats the entire table on a cushion of magnetic resistance, so to speak.  You can push down on one side and it will lean and then gently pop back up level.  Its one of the best vibration isolation systems I’ve seen.  Like floating on air bags but it’s polar magnetism.  No interference anywhere.  I have a music listening room built above my two stall garage and spec’d some hearty beams to span the floor underneath.  It resulted in some low frequency springing when I’d walk across the room towards the table. Like big leaf springs in a truck.  Could not feel it myself, but I could literally see it in my subwoofer, the cone would pulsate with steps.  Not any more.   I’m thinking someone ought to make these type of opposing magnetic feet as an add on tweak.  

I made some of those opposing magnet isolation feet about 25 years ago for a lightweight Optimus CD player. For lightweight things like that making the magnetic iso feet is not difficult but for heavy things you would have to figure out the size magnets to use and there is the added issue of the danger involved working with very powerful magnets. In addition, there’s the issue with magnetic suspensions involving how opposing magnets slip horizontally creating a slight path for vibration to travel. Nevertheless, it’s a very interesting idea.

A company called Anvil Turntables used to make a similar product like opposing magnetic isolation feet but you can’t access their site anymore. Curious.

http://www.contractorsweldingsupply.com/new-product.html

@tooblue : "I start out with my trusty, fully loaded with lead shot and sand, Lead Balloon by Arcci then I place my maple platform directly on top of the Lead Ballons turntable support shelf which has adjustable spikes to level things out"Just wondering why you are not using the original lead bars that Arcci supplied for placement on top of the support shelf. These were intended for the turntable feet. Did you find the maple platform to be a better platform for the TT? I still use mine but am wondering if I'm missing something.

@tuzarupa, I have long abandoned the Lead bars supplied by Arcci, found them to rob the liveliness from the table and I also tend to find brass and carbon fiber to have the same negative effect when it comes to setting up my tables. 

I abandoned the Arcicci lead balloon 🎈 a long time ago, too, especially after I came to the conclusion that lead as a material is just plain bad for the sound almost anywhere and in almost any amount. Yes, I know what you’re thinking - “but it’s such a good material for damping, not too soft, not too hard, and very dense. Just right.” I also concluded that the tall members of the Arcicci stand are too tall and therefore prone to moving at low frequencies due to seismic forces. As are many racks in general. That is coincidentally about the time real vibration iso stands came into vogue. Townshend, Mana, Bright Star, Vibraplane, etc.

@tooblue, thanks for the information. I happen to have a 1 1/2 " thick slab of maple from my sisters kitchen remodel; countertop. Should fit the bill for an experiment. Not sure if I'll hear a huge change as my TT is a 1985 AR with a SME III tonearm. Not quite the instrument you have in your setup but I dearly love it. I'm thinking the AR suspension may cause it to be less sensitive to a number of environmental factors.
But, one can never be sure until one actually experiments. So I will give it a go.

@tuzarupa, small world, the table I had in play when I purchased my Lead Ballon was an AR EB101 and it seemed to work well for that set up, but what did I know. I just pulled my Arcci LB out of the attic a few years ago when I bought my Prime to replace a Scoutmaster that was inside my Salamander cabinet and the Prime would not fit, I sandblasted it, powder coated, added a middle support for a shelf at dead center and installed  2" maple shelves to support my tube mono amps to let them breath also adding mass to the structure by their shear weight also replaced the Iso Physics tone cones on the bottom with Herbies Giant Threaded Stud Gliders finally loading the legs of the stand with a mix of sand and Lead shot. Although I was just looking for a temporary set up to get me by the results have been stunning allowing me to move on to other things.

My TT is a Technics SL1210M5G. I use a combination of Vibrapod Cones and Vibrapod Isolators under the turntable itself, and placed on top of a Michigan Maple butcher block cutting board. It's pretty massive at 20"w x 15"d x 3.5"h (I think it weighs as much as the turntable). I felt I needed something to isolate room vibrations from traveling up into the turntable. On the advice of a disco DJ (who used a similar turntable) I bought a pair of Fellowes silicone gel wrist pads made for computer keyboards. The DJ said they'd do a great job of keeping bassy feedback out of the signal chain.
He was right. I've had my turntable/butcher block stack resting on top of those wrist rests for around 8 years now with no desire to change anything.

I don’t think there’s a simple answer to this question. It depends on the floor, the rack, and the turntable. I’d try different things. I have 2 turntables. My equipment rack has 3" wood maple shelves that sit on small sorbothane bumpers and it sits on a concrete floor. The TT is more than 8’ away from the speakers (as noted, the further away the better).

My old HW-19 VPI TT (unsuspended) sounds best with an older variant of Herbies sorbothane pucks underneath it. I didn’t like the sound of them under my TW Acustic TT (122 lbs!). However, with the TW, I still hear some noise from the speakers if I rap hard enough on the wood maple shelf it sits on, so it’s not yet fully optimized.

I’d buy several cheap isolators people suggested or make your own (skip the Spam & DelMonte except for dinner?) and try them all out. Good luck experimenting!

bpoletti,
I can't give you any solid knowledge on this issue.  Even when I tried to get info, suggestions were all over the place.  You can't do one thing that another audiophile will telly you is Absolutely The Wrong Way To Go!So take whatever I contribute with a grain of salt.
I went down the rabbit hole "researching" (on a layman's level) many isolation materials and the various footers, isolators etc.
I used a siesmometer app on my ipad, to get objective read outs of vibration isolation, and used the "hand test" (what I could feel coming through and other off the cuff techniques as well.  So...not exactly lab work.  But the best I could do given the wilderness of contrasting opinions.
I ended up with a 2 1/2" thick maple block, atop various materials but most importantly:

The single most effective isolators were spring based - in my case Townsend Isolation Pods.  They measured, and felt, vastly more effective than any other material or footer I tried (sorbothane, vibrapods, Isoacoustics pucks, etc). 

That is for stopping major vibrations getting TOO the turntable on top of a block held upon those springs.  Stamp the floor around the turntable and you can feel virtually nothing, and the seismometer app registers very small readings vs the huge spikes without the springs.

But...putting the springs beneath can it seems add a tiny bit more ring-off when the turntable itself is tapped (thinking of turntable born-resonance, rumble here, possibly being slightly amplified by being placed on springs).
So...the best approach I could come up with is:  use springs, but holding up fairly heavy materials above.  If the object held by the springs is too light then you get some feedback if the turntable is pinged sitting on the springs.  But the more weight you place between the turntable and the springs. the lower the feedback to the springs.
Once you have a heavy base atop the springs it seems to be the best of both worlds:  tap or stomp beneath the bass and the springs do a great job of isolating vibration to the turntable above them.  But tap the turntable or the maple block above the springs, and that too produces even less vibration (measurable with the ipad app) than the turntable sitting on just a shelf or on just the maple block. 

I've read some posts by some folks who seem quite experienced with these techniques who came to the same conclusion: best is springs incorporated into the system, but make sure they are holding up something heavy enough to also dampen any major ringing feedback from the springs.
Again...take all that for what it's worth: just another audiophile who tried to answer these same questions.  I'm quite happy with the way my base turned out.

prof wrote,

“But...putting the springs beneath can it seems add a tiny bit more ring-off when the turntable itself is tapped (thinking of turntable born-resonance, rumble here, possibly being slightly amplified by being placed on springs).

So...the best approach I could come up with is: use springs, but holding up fairly heavy materials above. If the object held by the springs is too light then you get some feedback if the turntable is pinged sitting on the springs. But the more weight you place between the turntable and the springs. the lower the feedback to the springs.

Once you have a heavy base atop the springs it seems to be the best of both worlds: tap or stomp beneath the bass and the springs do a great job of isolating vibration to the turntable above them. But tap the turntable or the maple block above the springs, and that too produces even less vibration (measurable with the ipad app) than the turntable sitting on just a shelf or on just the maple block.”

>>>>>>>Wow! I didn’t think it was possible but your research into vibration isolation completely failed to turn up an explanation of mass-on-spring isolation. Should I be flabbergasted? 😮 Quick tutorial : You have to match the spring rate to the mass! The total spring rate equals the spring rate per spring x no. of springs. You want to obtain the lowest possible resonant frequency for the iso stand which is inversely proportion to square root of total mass and proportional to square root of total spring rate? It’s not rocket science. 🚀

nuttin'honey....just butcher block on a table.   Surely you can try whatever you care to, but VPI designed solid suspension works with the block.  Rid yourself of the damper feet and replace them with Bearpaws (very large brass cones...returnable if not wanted) Suspended chasis work best with lightweight tables.  I tried Vibrapods....just muddied up the sound.  Experimentation is fun however

My listening room is up on the second floor so I had to come with a mounting scheme to isolate my turntable (Technics SP10 MKII/ Basis Vector IV arm in Technics Obsidian plinth). I got the large Target wall mount shelf..I removed the standard MDF shelf and spikes...Replaced the spikes with these threaded rubber/cork blocks from Mapleshade that screw into the target shelf. I got a 3" maple butcher block shelf from "Dawn's Platforms" here on Agon that sits on top of those Mapleshade
blocks...I removed the crap feet from the Technical Obsidian plinth and replace with Stillpoints...that sit between the plinth and the maple shelf. It works well for me.

It will depend on your home construction.

@stringreen Great thought and common sense overlooked!  The table currently sits on a robust set of shelves on which also rests some electronics and hold around 1,000 records.  Maybe not the best place to place a turntable.  

My listening area in a finished basement room.  I can spike a rack to the basement floor, spike the (new) Chop Block board to the rack and use original StillPoint cones on which to mount the Aries Extended.  Hadn't thought to remove the Aries "feet" but they are not in use, that's a no-brainer with this config.  

All I'm REALLY trying to do is get rid of some warmth that seems to be coming from the table (vinyl chain).  I know it's not the electronics (all Herron Audio) and have pretty much isolated it to the arm (JMW Memorial 12) or table itself.  

At the amplification used for mc carts, it's easy to pick up very tiny signals or resonances outside of the music.

All I'm REALLY trying to do is get rid of some warmth that seems to be coming from the table

Try replacing your mat with a vinyl record preferably a 10". Which is what I use.

@noromance What mat?

@bpoletti Er... your turntable mat. You don’t have one, do ya? No Virtual System either. A few years ago, I had problems with heavy furniture under my 401. Warmth, blurring, sluggishness. I put 3 small granite block samples on the furniture top. Then placed the heavy 401 on small brass compression rings I had knocking around. Basically the turntable sat on 3 pieces of tiny decouplers which rested on the granite which rested flat on the furniture top. It totally cleaned up the sound for no $. I use a different set up now but that worked for years.

@noromance

I assume you use a 10" because of the raised lip on most vinyl records, that would leave some area unsupported, still not flat.... Would a flat profile lp be better? Or..cut the outer lip off of a regular lp and smooth the edge off?

@noromance The table rests on three original Stillpoints.  I doan need no steenkin mat. 

All kidding aside, the previous owner of the table saw this thread ad gave me a call over the weekend.  Made a couple of suggestions.  Both have improved the sound and reduced the magnitude of the warmth I was trying to address.  Still room for more tweaks.  

@slaw Yup. 10". Seems to work fine with the overhang. I wanted to get the Resomat but he's retired from making them.

@bpoletti yes but it is the wood that makes it sluggish. Try the stillpoints on granite blocks..I beg you!! And spill the beans on what you did.

ya, i just have a 2" maple butcher block under my VPI Scoutmaster II.
I am just using the cork and rubber squares: about 1" cubed. its good, but not the best. 
vibrapods are good as well.

but with a blank butcher block, you can drill 3-4 holes to install spikes.
e.g, from Dayon Audio or Parts express. but you will want to use a drill press to make sure the holes are perfectly straight, so that your spikes are perfectly straight. 

1. drill hole in the block
2. install metal female outside threaded piece into the hole you drilled.
3 . screw in the metal spikes. 
4. put metal discs under the spikes if you like

I've done this, worked for me

Curious as to why you would consider putting your turntable on a slab of wood? Does it matter if it's currently sitting on a metal table? Is that why?

Placed the maple butcher block on three cones solid brass (facing up) on the top of the record shelves (same shelf / position as before).  Placed the Aries Extended on the butcher block.  Put three stillpoints under the table at the approximate position as the cones under the bb.  Adjusted for level.  

There was an improvement.  Dynamics seemed a bit shrper, bass a bit tighter.  The subtle warmth around the lower registers of a harp and clarinet was reduced providing more detail, particularly woodiness of the clarinet.  

Maybe the soundstage was improved.  Maybe.  Maybe the imaging was a little tighter.  Maybe.  Maybe tenor and also voices were a little more natural (less chesty, but since its vocals, who know what they REALLY sound like live).  Maybe.

My conclusion is that the ~ $120 investment was worth it.  

I do intend to try a set of dedicated rigid shelves that are "coned" directly into the concrete floor with the table sitting in a configuration with the maple bb like above.  Not sure there is much room for improvement, but it might be worth a try.  

Huh? Three brass cones facing up? You broke the golden rule of cones. For shame!

@geoffkait  What golden rule of cones.  Oh, no.  I didn't know!!   Please don't call the cone police!  Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa!  ;-)

I didn't want to put threaded inserts into the maple bb.  My thin and weak excuse is that I didn't want to risk damage to the bb.  The real reason is that I was too lazy to drill out holes for the inserts.  Figured it would be OK.  The Stillpoint cones are point-up, BearClaws are solid brass and point-up.  

Sad...……..

The thing with cones is they’re rather *directional* and should always be points down. When they are points down they allow energy to *exit* the system and disallow energy to come up into the system, relatively speaking. This is also why the specific material of the cone and the shape of the cone are also important. What you want this very rapid energy transfer as well as seismic energy blocking.

I have my Thorens 124 with glued-on ebony wood spikes sitting on a 1" maple butcher block which sits on spikes attached to wall shelf bolted to a stud in the wall. It allows me to use the classic Swiss Beachwood plinth with no mushrooms instead of some massive thing and it just sounds and looks awesome.

Does any one set their  TT spikes directly on the maple block?

I just did take the little spike stands away and rested the TT spikes on the maple block. Then I threaded up my 2 belts and now the motor pulley is too high for the platter and won't stay on. I remembered I had 3 small myrtlewood blocks and placed under the spikes. Put the belts on and I swear it sounded better than before. It doesn't make sense that by taking out that the half inch high dampened spike stands would make a difference but it was a positive one. A warmer sound with a richer bass. Tell me it's not true. But I was a happy listener all afternoon. I replayed U2 SBS which is a little dry and shrill anyway and now its much better.

@blueranger When you said "half inch high dampened spike stands," were those by chance rubber damped spike stands?  

Yes metal hole with a very hard rubber base

@blueranger My opinion....

It has been my recent experience that using rubber for turntable damping does not seem to produce the desired results.  Removing the "half inch high damped spike stands" that use rubber may have cleaned up dynamics and the midrange.  At least that has been my experience with a couple of VPI tables.    

That's only my opinion.  YMMV.

Yep it made a difference for sure. Thanks for agreeing. Now I really want to couple directly to the maple bypassing the myrtle Wood blooks. Just need a longer screw spike to raise the AS TT high enough for the belts. 

Butcher block on cork fiber. Great isolation. 

I use a 19.5" x 16.25" x 3.5" maple block on cork/rubber in a SolidSteel WS-5 wall shelf (have also use sorbothane disks under the block). My Clearaudio Ovation sits on top of that. However, when I had it made I had it done as an edge grain. Now I am talking to Butcher Block Acoustics about making me a custom end-grain 3" maple block in the same size.
I am also planning to audition a set of HRS Nimbus feet to see if it improves the system further.

Anyone have thoughts on using maple vs cherry vs walnut for a butcher block base? Maple is harder than the other two (Janka scale for maple 1450, walnut 1010, cherry 950). Cherry would match my system the best. I guess my real question is how important is the relative hardness of maple, or does one just begin to arrive at dimishing returns for a certain hardness? I'm going to put a 40 lb. unsprung TT on it.

So I asked this question to "Butcher Block Acoustics" & he stated the softer the wood the warmer the sound. I'm currently using walnut for my preamp base. Can't say I've done any "A" / "B" type testing with maple, but it is better in my system than the granite I was using before. It may be a bit warmer, but where it excels is soundstage width, depth, & definition.  

I’m inclined to go with maple. It will be more rigid and better for isolation, which is what it’s for. I can always refinish it if I want to.

@boxer12,

The response you received makes a lot of sense. However, one person’s "warmth" could be another person’s "veiled or muffled" sound. It comes down to semantics there.

In my years of experimenting with various isolation devices and platforms, I’d say that response makes perfect sense.

What one should be aware of however is, not using or expecting the maple to be the ultimate problem solvers for any prior/ongoing vibration problems from their rack/stand etc. Boxer, the way you expressed the differences in your system gels with mine, but I might have said "increased transparency". Again, semantics.

Slaw,
You are correct, that is a better way of stating the difference. I also have had good experience using Corian. I'm not sure how well that would work for longer lengths, but it works well cut to 16 X 13 in my smaller rack. 

@boxer12,

What my focus has been on is decoupling...from my floor & from my wall.
(I use a wall mount for my front-end).

Great thread and I need a base too. Anybody have any opinions on the maple vs walnut? I can get an edge cut piece of 1.5" thick walnut for about the same price as an edge cut piece of 3" maple.

I'm also looking at marble and granite. Any preference there?

Thanks.

Just got my 1 3/4 maple from butcher block acoustics for my VPI Prime Signature.  I would say the soundstage benefited as well as the focus.  I also noticed a smoothing of the vocals.

I ended up ordering mine from Bucther Block Acoustics in maple this weekend. I am getting the end-grain version in a custom size (19.5 x 16.25 x 3) to fit my SolidSteel WS-5 wall shelf as direct replacement for the MDF board it comes with. They say it should be about 6 weeks for production. They were going to quote one in cherry to match my furniture, but I’m changing the latter next year anyway, when I get a Naim Fraim, which I will do with either black or ash shelves.