USB Cable

Question. @tvrgeek what is in your audio chain, equipment wise? DAC, Streamer, Amplification, Speakers or are you using Headphone. Just curious. 

@tvrgeek Said "Between good cables, no I heard no difference. I am not positive I heard a difference with the bad cables."  Thanks for answering the question. 

I have heard big differences and no differences between cables in different applications.  I noted above in this thread that my favorite USB cable is currently made by DH Labs, but I have also done sound testing with cheap cables (all under $12) connecting a hard drive to a server, and I had a very specific favorite (my favorite was actually a "Belkin" not a "Belden").  That is when I first realized digital cables matter.  I assemble a lot of my own power cables, and completed cables I thought would sound killer based on design, materials and measurements just sound weird, and some cheap power cables from China sound fantastic to me.  Go figure.

On other digital cables - specifically coax cables - a vendor handed me some cables from brands I had no experience with to try, and then I went out and borrowed a bunch more from another vendor and I did a set of subjective sound tests.  Turns out I had particular dislikes, likes and likes more.  I had my son who has good ears for recorded music come sit down and listen to different cables and take notes as I swapped them out calling them 1, 2, 3 etc. He could not see what I was doing.  A blind test.  No particular order by price.  His notes generally echoed my non-blind impressions.  He hands down liked the two most expensive cables the best without knowing what they were.  He also really liked a cable that was the 2nd cheapest cable tested.  He did not like the cable I had been using and I thought previously was all that.  Turns out after going through the testing period, I didn't care for that much either when compared to other wires in the test.  Maybe he was tired, or confused, or the result was a fluke, or maybe he just has really good ears and could detect differences in sound attributable to nothing more than some wires and shielding and connectors running between a server and a DAC.  I bought an expensive cable as a result of this experience.  Maybe my gear sucks and needs that extra help.  Dunno.  But it makes me happy when I listen.  YMMV.

kn

@knownothing

Your moniker in relation to the OP truly rocks!! Nothing like a bit of Sokratean diffidence in these threads.

@antigrunge2 I’m completely in the dark about what I don’t know, but I think maybe it’s a lot.  

kn

@tvrgeek I am sorry I had to look all that stuff up as it is not traditional audiophile or even mid fi gear.  Now back to my original question you never answered. What is in your audiophile setup, what is the audio equipment you currently use for listening for pleasure, not test equipment. 

Sorry, I misunderstood you. 

My main system is my own speakers, Seas / SB based, with a Peerless low Q sub. O-Audio plate. DSpeaker Cinema DSP on it for the room nodes.  Vidar main amplifier, Today Topping DX3pro+ DAC, but I have 5 and a new one coming today. PC based server, JRiver FLAC files.  EQ for the mains is a Schiit Lokius.  It blocks the deep bass from the mains and rolls off the top just a little as my room is a bit bright.  Not using any DSP eq to the mains. 

My desktop is my own speakers, Dayton/Vifa XT-25 based, Sub etc. Using my desktop JRiver, JDS Atom+ dac and amp feeding a Schiit Rekkr.

I spend a lot of time reading in my guest/HT. JRiver on the PC, Anthem AVR and again, all my own speakers. 

My workshop downstairs is leftovers.  ELAC speakers, Fosi V3 amp and an old Kenwood tuner.  Enough to play the "Classical Station" in the background. I had a Creek on it, but that was a shame to waste such an amp, so I sold it in favor of the Chi-Fi wonder. Upstairs I stream to a laptop and feed an antique SMSL Tripath amp to whatever set of old speakers at the time. 

@tvrgeek Nice, the Vidar amplifiers are very nice. Thank you helps to put things in perspective, with your post. 

Did a deeper dive. ( getting used to my new DAC, so lots of time) 

First, related is PCM.  Source and end 75 Ohms, so a 75 Ohm coax is the "correct" cable. Length should not matter until it is so long as signal loss comes to play.  No issue with jitter caused by reflections but you are dependent on the source clock. "S" and "P" knew what they were doing.   

OK, USB.  First of all, it is NRZ encoding.  Shape of the rise and fall is irrelevant. It's a 90 Ohm specified cable, twisted pair. Shielding was not part of the spec for USB 1 and 2 as it was designed for keyboards or printers. So only needed to have reasonable CMR.   Now we use this for audio between devices with different power and ground paths.  That's our world.  The end point ( DAC) design needs to recognize this.  Both for loss and for reflections, there is a distance limitation of 5M.  There is no specification for minimum length.  ( Thumb drives work just fine @ 0)  A "0" is +/- .01V  and a "1" is 3.6 to 4.5 V. As you can see almost the full 4V hysteresis so it would take a HUGE amount of noise or reflection to be detected and with matched impedance, that is not happening. 

I again stand by my "decent cable and well designed input"  as all that is required for USB audio. USB mode 2.  Going past that requires "extra ordinary claims". Not saying they are not valid, but the require proof as the technology says it just ain't happening. 

I noticed a You-Tube video where our friend at PS was talking about USB jitter in relation to the source clock.  That was ONLY USB mode 1.  We don't do that any more!  The DAC buffers and re-clocks. 

PS: USB-3 is even more robust including transport layer CRC, but we are not there yet.

Forgot to add. USB 1 and 2 are not "guaranteed" transports like TCP/IP is. More like UDP/IP.   It is up to the application layer which I do not believe is either for audio. But as I have shown, it is quite reliable.  That does mean a poorly implemented receiver can in fact make a mistake not caught and if horribly enough of them, maybe audible.  It would likely need to be by coincidence  MSB or close to it. 

I know this won't close the USB debate by "true believers"  Fine, there are plenty of sources that will take your Money for Nothing  :)

@tvrgeek

Have a drink, mate and pls try to relax.

antigrunge2

Have a drink, mate and pls try to relax.

The guy has problems, for sure. He sees fairies and magic dust everywhere. Most odd.

So let me get this straight, you have a DAC and a Streamer-Server that only has USB that is bad? That using a USB cable from a company like DH Labs is foolish even though the cable is not that expensive. That the DAC and the Streamer builder are not using 5v protocols, it is still bad even though the DAC and Streamer engineers built their respective devices around these  protocols. Please explain this to me @tvrgeek I must be stupid. As must these engineers at all these companies. 

USB is the defacto-standard. Anyone who wants to be in the marketplace needs to follow the market trends.  It is not the best transport, but it is what we have. 

PCM, coax or fiber, relies on the HOST to providing clocking information. Notoriously poor. USB uses the DAC or STREAMER internal clock. It can be as good as the designer wants.  For $100 it can be excellent. 

Some new higher end DACs also buffer and re-clock the PCM, so it would them be just as good as the USB Mode 2.   

Stupid engineers? Yes, if they do not design their interface to deal with the realistic world.  An AMD galvanic isolator is a 50 cent chip, yet why don't $5000 DACs include one? Incompetence!

I will say ONE MORE TIME, I measured the noise injected into the analog output using "free-be" cables which cut open were very poorly shielded. I measured none with well made to spec.  I measured none using a $12 external galvanic isolator. 

Just trying to provide factual information.   Not everyone has a technical background so they may be more susceptible to snake-oil or may more easily fall into placebo conclusions.   A little knowledge helps.   

If someone is not interested in factual information on this subject, you do not need to read my posts. I  try to present facts so people can make up their own mind.  If you have any actual evidence other than "You believe", please present it. 

I hope a $90 USB cable is well made and works as well as a $6 one that is made to spec.   If you feel better using it and can afford it, fine.  Just understand it does not actually perform any better. 

Wow someone is up on their soapbox, I asked a question, I am here to learn.

Though the focus is on PC and I will not use a PC in my audio chain as they lack shielding and introduce noise. I like a well built cable as opposed to the cheap crap from Amazon. 

Can there be an audible difference with proper implementation. I do think so and this will be more evident in well engineered higher end equipment not the stuff from AMZ or AEX.  Not saying anyone is wrong just that your mileage may vary. 

Yes I did a little research (alibet very little) and lot's of cutting and pasting.  Enjoy there is some really good information here in my opinion and supports some of the posting in this subject. 

Now to @tvrgeek point these people point out here:  EDN (2012).

Here in this article EDN claims that Colcking is the major hurdle for quality audio over USB:

https://www.edn.com/select-your-usb-audio-mcu-with-care-scary-stories-from-the-test-bench/

https://www.edn.com/usb-audio-simplified/

USB is a versatile interface that provides many ways to propagate and control digital audio; however, it is important for the industry to follow a standardized mechanism for transporting audio over USB to secure interoperability, which has been the cornerstone for the adoption of USB. To respond to this fundamental request, the USB organization has developed the Audio Devices Class, which defines a very robust standardized mechanism for transporting audio over USB. The USB audio class specification is available to the public from the USB Implementers Forum (www.usb.org).

One of the major issues with streaming audio over USB is the synchronization of data streams from the host (source) to the device (sink); this has been addressed by developing a robust synchronization scheme on “isochronous transfers,” which has been incorporated into the USB specification.

https://www.edn.com/can-you-hear-the-difference/

Now, I can understand not buying the cheapest of USB cables, but I'd do that for reliability, not audio quality.

Don't fool yourself. Paying $695 for a USB cable will not get you better audio. You will get the same audio quality from a $6.95 cable. The audio quality is a function of the original encoding, the decoding, the analog signal processing and amplifier, and the speaker. Go ahead, prove me wrong. Get yourself a top-of-the-line audio analyzer and show me the difference in audio quality between cables that carry digital signals.

Take a look at the linked page above. Be sure to read the comments over there as well, and then tell us what you think.

https://www.edn.com/fundamentals-of-usb-audio/

Found this and calls out some hardware limitations in Audio/Music transmissions (2013) and that clocking can be the issue?

https://www.edn.com/usb-audio-asynchronous-is-the-only-choice-for-compromise-free-audio/

“…understanding of audio may have passed the current generation of microcontroller suppliers by, resulting in a generally rather poor standard of audio replay. This may be down to a tendency for pure-play MCU companies to treat audio as just another data interface format… Some of the methods proposed and implemented for generating the audio master clock… have no place in a high-quality audio product”

On one thing, however, we do see eye to eye: the article concludes with the advice 'look for a vendor team that clearly knows what it's doing in the audio field.' With that, we couldn't agree more!

tvrgeek

I try to present facts so people can make up their own mind. If you have any actual evidence other than "You believe", please present it.

You consistently reject all evidence that does not suit your measurementalist’s notion of how things should work. Pretending that you sincerely seek evidence is not likely to fool many here.

@tvrgeek, you revealed quite a bit about yourself with this proclamation of yours:

Your BRAIN has re-mapped to convince you it is better. Our brain lies. Always. Humans are never objective.

As you acknowledge, it appears that your brain lies and that, indeed, it may have become "remapped." Fortunately, most of the rest of us can still think for ourselves.

Hmmm... tvrgeek adimits he’s never objective, that his brain always lies, and that it has remapped reality. Would a mandatory 72 hour observation period be required?

All the best,
Nonoise

I suggest some believers in magic here do a little reading on human objectivity, or lack there-of.   More productive than snide insulting remarks.  Human senses are not and never have been objective. This is why first person witness is the lowest form of legal evidence. We hear and see what we want to see.  

Look at dates of publications. USB mode ONE is not Mode TWO.  DAC's from 2013 are not the same as even the cheapest today. Much has been learned, much has been applied.  Clocking WAS a problem as it was host based. It is not now.  NOPE, GONE.  Noise injected by ground, shield or 5V can now be totally eliminated. Cheap. 

I do not sell either cheap or expensive cables. I am not trying to defend my ego for being scammed.  I am not a total measurement is all. I do listen. But I also understand how these transfer layers work and only which to help those who do not have the technical background. They don't teach digital communications in medical or business school.  Seems they no longer teach logical thinking and arguments either. 

tvrgeek

I suggest some believers in magic here do a little reading on human objectivity ...

Perhaps you should take your own advice, because you seem to be one of the greatest believers in magic on all of A’gon. You find it here and there and yonder, fortified with pixie dust and measurementalism and seasoned with snake oil. It has the ability to remap your brain, the way you tell it.

Our brain lies. Always.

measurementalism

@cleeds Not sure if that’s a word, but I like it!!!  Fitting that it contains the word “mental” in it and also makes it sound like the cult that it really is — killing two birds.  Hey, “ain’t” wasn’t initially in the dictionary either until it became part of our vernacular, and I plan to do my part to eventually get your word in there too!

More productive than snide insulting remarks.

As opposed to repeated, casually insulting remarks? A distinction without a difference, I'd wager.

All the best,
Nonoise

@tvrgeek I think you need to take some Xanax. Clocking absolutely is still an issue. I also made full disclosure on the dates of the information I compiled, oh and was not compiled for you you arrogant azz. You must need a ladder to get on that high horse. You sure make it hard for people to respect you or even want to read your opinions on anything. Truly sad your ego gets' in the way of what should be enjoyable.

Yet in other publications (2016) they find the articles I sited as relevant.

https://www.electronicdesign.com/technologies/embedded/article/21801786/achieving-bitperfect-usb-audio

Also USB Protocols were written in the 1990’s, so really little has changed in the protocols. Changes have been in clocking and hardware, no?

Regardless I think the credentials and experience of the authors EDN outweigh you alleged expertise. JUNE 27, 2012
BY HENK MULLER, PRINCIPAL TECHNOLOGIST XMOS LTD.

As a longtime audio DIYer I can sympathize with audio enthusiasts who don’t wish to have their fun spoiled by the likes of such objectivist methods as hardcore engineering measurements and double blind testing (DBT). But audio subjectivists should realize that ignoring the objectivist “reality” side of audio means never being able to determine an objective “better” or “best” and forever drifting from one product to another in search of the “holy grail.”

Me, I’d rather spend my time enjoying listening to music.

https://www.edn.com/audio-subjectivist-vs-objectivist-debate-2/

From USB.org.

https://www.usb.org/sites/default/files/audio10.pdf

 

@tvrgeek I think you need to take some Xanax. 

Actually better: some THC or gummies 

I kinda wonder about people who post on a site called Audiogon where you can buy a system comprised of used audio equipment that costs as much as a small condominium, but who cannot tell empirically that one wire design sounds different than another.  I mean for me it is not even subtle.  And based on my limited work building cables (and measuring them to make sure they at least won’t start a fire in high voltage and current applications), I find measurements are of limited use in telling me how they will sound in real life application in my system and in my room/operating environment.  Kimber provides measurements for all the wires they sell, and I applaud their willingness to do that.  But those measurements don’t tell you exactly how those wires, be they digital, analog, or power, will actually sound when placed in your system.  

The audio world is full of consumers with engineering backgrounds who refuse to believe that wires can make a difference if the boxes they connect follow sound engineering principles and “measure well”.  And then they hear the difference wires can make for themselves and it’s like they just found out the Book of Genesis was only an ancient writer’s best guess at how the universe and our world were formed based on the general understanding at the time.  I know, it’s unsettling to have your dogma and intellectual foundation unmoored by empirical evidence.  But God gave us two ears, one brain and one mouth.  In audio as in life, it is best to use them in proportion.

kn

@knownothing :  +1. Agreed and well said.

I’m waiting on a 33.00 USB cable. All the customer reviews are excellent as far as that goes. It’s a test to see if this cable will make any difference from the current 2.00 USB. 
 

we shall see ….. -

X-ray of our different USB-C cables.  Yup, they're all identical!

For sure identical. Digital is digital. It either works or it doesn’t 🤦‍♂️

@twoleftears aside from the Amazon cable would love to know who’s USB’s are in the X-ray image. Thank you.
 

far left: Apple Thunderbolt 4, $129

middle left: Amazon Basics

middle right: NiceTQ, $5.59

far right: ATYFUER, $3.89

Well my USB cable test surprised me. 

turns out you can get far better sound by spending just a few dollars more. 
 

my SKW $33.00 1.5 meter USB 2.0 cable sounds great, excellent. I will save my $2.00 USB cable for my printer. 
 

@tvrgeek I’m surprised of the mediocre results you get from Fosi V3...

I know someone who drives Magnepans with it, another guy who drives Martin Logans, and they are both very happy with the performance.

I never heard the V3 (not yet) but I bought an Aiyima A07 for a friend, and that tiny thing fills a big room with loud, undistorted, detailed sound and very impressive bass driving a pair of Magnat All Ribbon speakers. Fosi V3 is supposed to be better than Aiyima A07...

Are you 100% sure that yours isn’t just faulty?