USB Cable


I'm considering upgrading a generic 5 meter USB from pc to DAC.   Opinions please on DH Labs Mirage vs Transparent Audio.  Has anyone had an opportunity to compare  in a quality system?

savant19970

Showing 10 responses by tvrgeek

Worse yet, where is just looking at the actual problem?  What is wrong with your current USB cable?  If a dime store cable, probably poor shielding and it can introduce noise into the ground of your DAC.  A "decent" cable, say one from Belden 8733 series cable. Do be sure it meets USB2.0 spec. Cone cheap cables are not. In theory, if both ends are USB C, then it should meet USB 3.0 standards.   Then does your DAC have galvanic isolation? Most better newer ones do but not all.  An external transformer, about $12, will break that ground and shield so it won't inject noise.  Maybe that is all you need. 5M is vary long so quality of the cable does matter, but price and quality have almost  no correlation when the word "audiophile" comes into play.  

You could always grab several off Amazon and see if they have any positive sonic effect before going down the "audiophile" rout.  I used to trust Monoprice, but not sure now. Belkin cables should be to spec. There is also the USB to fiber/tranceiver game for a cable that long as 5M is the max length by USB2.0 spec. 

I believe using a PC is vastly better than a streamer as it gives me the opportunity to manage buffer and digital gain so as not to introduce digital filter clipping. A few DACs take care of that themselves, but few. Host based, I have some control over what is happening to my bits. I also like my 20 inch touch screen as the interface, not some stupid phone ap.   A quality streamer will hopefully have better digital processing than a cheap one, but I'm keeping my PS and not paying ROON to access my local FLAC library!  The DAC is where those bits become music. Not in the PC or streamer though the software in both can screw things up. Good streamers I hope have better processing software. 

A really crappy, like the free ones can, and I have measured them, introduce measurable noise in a system. Audible or not is subjective. BUT, a well designed client USB receiver is immune to that kind of problem.  If you are running USB mode 1 then varying cable parameters in off-spec crap cables may cause jitter issues as you are using the source clock.  Run USB mode 2 asynchronous, and no more problem.  Data is buffered and ALL timing is in the client side. 

A lot of even expensive boutique DACs have crap USB receivers, so a "correct to spec" USB cable may well improve the sound.  Band-aid for an old  client.  Boutique companies do not always have the time and budget to stay up on fast moving technology. Some of the USB issues were not well understood 10 years ago. 

A USB-1 spec cable should be more than enough bandwidth for audio, but most cables meet at least level 2 spec. If USB-c on BOTH ends, it will need to meet the level 3 spec for reliable data rate.   Look them up.  A to C who knows. 

 If you have a DAC without galvanic isolation and you believe some garbage is getting in, you can get a perfectly good AMD Galvanic isolator board from Amazon or E-bay for $12. You can get the same transformer in a boutique box for $400 and every price in between. No ground loops. No source ground or power noise injected into the client. 

An exception is if the client is powered from the host USB.  In some cables the 5 and gd are not shielded so noise pickup is possible but probably trivial compared to the crap a PC puts on the line. Isolators are designed so you can inject high quality power on the client side. Again problem solved with science.  I do not know all cables, but Belden stock is two pairs shielded with an overall.  Monoprice may not be. China Inc?  Your guess is as good as mine. 

The USB interface is well defined and respectable companies like Belden make cable certified to the spec. I keep mentioning them because I know them. That does not exclude the hundreds of other raw cable manufacturers.   No magic needed.

Using asynchronous mode,  It can't effect timing, resolution, space, air, attack, presence, blackness, or any of the "your system is not resolving enough" excuses.  Against the laws of physics.  

You can pick up and inject noise over the 5th connection. The outer shield. Again, a well designed receiver will reject this, but so will a 49 cent ferrite on the cable. 

There is a maximum spec on USB cable length but not a minimum. Some have suggested ring-back on a short cable can cause jitter of the bits.  The physics are correct and you can measure this, but it has not been shown that a correctly designed receiver has any issue with bit to bit accuracy into the buffer. 

So, to "deniers"  there are situations where it can or could have caused a problem.  To "believers" you may be hearing the difference between crap and correct, may be hearing a band-aid for a different problem, or may be hearing because your brain said if you spend more it has to be better.   Whatever makes you happy.  If that multi-color braid over Chinese bulk cable for $400 makes you happy, go for it.  Maybe they were nice enough to use 8723 as their stock so you do get a good cable. 

FWIW, a steamer is just a smaller PC with fewer applications running. Maybe it has a cleaner power supply, and maybe a cleaner USB port.    If you are using the PCM ports, then better hope it has a much better clock, but I notice the newer DACS are also buffering and relocking PCM so even that becomes moot.   Or is that mute :) Go streamer because you want the user interface which is configured for media. Not for magic.  I use a PC because I am old and don't have a phone attached.  I also like being able to adjust the OS and player parameters where in a streamer, they make it easier by doing that for you. Hopefully the best choices. Some of these parameters can make a big sonic difference. Bits are bits but what you do with them matters. 

Summary. Using USB mode 2, it's nothing but a transport to move bits from one memory buffer to another. There are ways to mess that up. Engineering helps. magic and money don't. The spec is reliable. 

It is the complex environment of what you speak. This is why USB and Ethernet cables are twisted pairs and shielded.  The designers knew this. Partly for the spec of 11 feet. USB was not intended to exist in a vacuum. 

Yes, I blame shortcomings on the end points not implementing good practice.  In a $100 DAC, it is cost driven so some slack is given. But in a $500? Nope. $5,000?  Pure incompetence. 

I did loopback tests between free cables and correctly designed USB cables.  Big difference and it shows up in a spectrum analyzer. Added an isolator, and presto, no problem.  Two piles, good and bad. You can add a braided sheath and a fancy box, but it won't transfer bits any better. 

Remember, it is not the digital waveform that matters. It is how it is detected, PE, NRZ,  windowed, etc and then gated into a shift register to be accessed by the DSP section. Even DSD is re-generated.  No place for magical properties to hide. 

FWIW, I just ordered a D400es and it does NOT have a galvanic isolator.  Bad design for that price point considering how much they spent on the cabinet. I will test  both with an analyzer and my ears if ones needed in my cabinet.  I pay attention to cable dress  and common power so It probably is not. I have dead silence through my speakers with no active signal. 

Between good cables, no I heard no difference. I am not positive I heard a difference with the bad cables. Knowing they are bad etc.  I had my Grado's then which were more revealing than my Yamahas.  If it measures bad and measures good is cheap, why not? 

There is actually no such thing as a true blind test because you know it is a test. Your brain will make up answers.   So, we get larger groups trying to take guess averages out, double blind and all that. Guess what?  When there is no difference, we get answers that are positive they heard a difference, and when a difference, sometimes large, some claim there is none.  Do enough trials to where statics start to matter and fatigue sets in and your brain makes up even more stories.  Some studies may be as close as 60% and claim that is proof.  If you know stats, you know far that is off!  That is the problem with subjective tests. They are only valid for you and may or may not reflect reality.  Your perception is all that matters though. Being human. 

When we make a change, we usually jump in and do "critical listening"  and hear details we had not before. Were they really revealed, or were you just listening to music before and not noticed them?   I know I have fallen for this.  The more your invested in the change, the more likely you can switch back and those details get blocked.   Sometimes we put something and because it first seems different, maybe yes, maybe no, but a week later we claim it is "burned in" . More likely, we have just reprogramed our expectations and there was no change.   Speakers, yea I buy that.    We are a funny species. 

 

Sorry, I misunderstood you. 

My main system is my own speakers, Seas / SB based, with a Peerless low Q sub. O-Audio plate. DSpeaker Cinema DSP on it for the room nodes.  Vidar main amplifier, Today Topping DX3pro+ DAC, but I have 5 and a new one coming today. PC based server, JRiver FLAC files.  EQ for the mains is a Schiit Lokius.  It blocks the deep bass from the mains and rolls off the top just a little as my room is a bit bright.  Not using any DSP eq to the mains. 

My desktop is my own speakers, Dayton/Vifa XT-25 based, Sub etc. Using my desktop JRiver, JDS Atom+ dac and amp feeding a Schiit Rekkr.

I spend a lot of time reading in my guest/HT. JRiver on the PC, Anthem AVR and again, all my own speakers. 

My workshop downstairs is leftovers.  ELAC speakers, Fosi V3 amp and an old Kenwood tuner.  Enough to play the "Classical Station" in the background. I had a Creek on it, but that was a shame to waste such an amp, so I sold it in favor of the Chi-Fi wonder. Upstairs I stream to a laptop and feed an antique SMSL Tripath amp to whatever set of old speakers at the time. 

Did a deeper dive. ( getting used to my new DAC, so lots of time) 

First, related is PCM.  Source and end 75 Ohms, so a 75 Ohm coax is the "correct" cable. Length should not matter until it is so long as signal loss comes to play.  No issue with jitter caused by reflections but you are dependent on the source clock. "S" and "P" knew what they were doing.   

OK, USB.  First of all, it is NRZ encoding.  Shape of the rise and fall is irrelevant. It's a 90 Ohm specified cable, twisted pair. Shielding was not part of the spec for USB 1 and 2 as it was designed for keyboards or printers. So only needed to have reasonable CMR.   Now we use this for audio between devices with different power and ground paths.  That's our world.  The end point ( DAC) design needs to recognize this.  Both for loss and for reflections, there is a distance limitation of 5M.  There is no specification for minimum length.  ( Thumb drives work just fine @ 0)  A "0" is +/- .01V  and a "1" is 3.6 to 4.5 V. As you can see almost the full 4V hysteresis so it would take a HUGE amount of noise or reflection to be detected and with matched impedance, that is not happening. 

I again stand by my "decent cable and well designed input"  as all that is required for USB audio. USB mode 2.  Going past that requires "extra ordinary claims". Not saying they are not valid, but the require proof as the technology says it just ain't happening. 

I noticed a You-Tube video where our friend at PS was talking about USB jitter in relation to the source clock.  That was ONLY USB mode 1.  We don't do that any more!  The DAC buffers and re-clocks. 

PS: USB-3 is even more robust including transport layer CRC, but we are not there yet.

Forgot to add. USB 1 and 2 are not "guaranteed" transports like TCP/IP is. More like UDP/IP.   It is up to the application layer which I do not believe is either for audio. But as I have shown, it is quite reliable.  That does mean a poorly implemented receiver can in fact make a mistake not caught and if horribly enough of them, maybe audible.  It would likely need to be by coincidence  MSB or close to it. 

I know this won't close the USB debate by "true believers"  Fine, there are plenty of sources that will take your Money for Nothing  :)

If someone is not interested in factual information on this subject, you do not need to read my posts. I  try to present facts so people can make up their own mind.  If you have any actual evidence other than "You believe", please present it. 

I hope a $90 USB cable is well made and works as well as a $6 one that is made to spec.   If you feel better using it and can afford it, fine.  Just understand it does not actually perform any better. 

 

USB is the defacto-standard. Anyone who wants to be in the marketplace needs to follow the market trends.  It is not the best transport, but it is what we have. 

PCM, coax or fiber, relies on the HOST to providing clocking information. Notoriously poor. USB uses the DAC or STREAMER internal clock. It can be as good as the designer wants.  For $100 it can be excellent. 

Some new higher end DACs also buffer and re-clock the PCM, so it would them be just as good as the USB Mode 2.   

Stupid engineers? Yes, if they do not design their interface to deal with the realistic world.  An AMD galvanic isolator is a 50 cent chip, yet why don't $5000 DACs include one? Incompetence!

I will say ONE MORE TIME, I measured the noise injected into the analog output using "free-be" cables which cut open were very poorly shielded. I measured none with well made to spec.  I measured none using a $12 external galvanic isolator. 

Just trying to provide factual information.   Not everyone has a technical background so they may be more susceptible to snake-oil or may more easily fall into placebo conclusions.   A little knowledge helps.   

I suggest some believers in magic here do a little reading on human objectivity, or lack there-of.   More productive than snide insulting remarks.  Human senses are not and never have been objective. This is why first person witness is the lowest form of legal evidence. We hear and see what we want to see.  

Look at dates of publications. USB mode ONE is not Mode TWO.  DAC's from 2013 are not the same as even the cheapest today. Much has been learned, much has been applied.  Clocking WAS a problem as it was host based. It is not now.  NOPE, GONE.  Noise injected by ground, shield or 5V can now be totally eliminated. Cheap. 

I do not sell either cheap or expensive cables. I am not trying to defend my ego for being scammed.  I am not a total measurement is all. I do listen. But I also understand how these transfer layers work and only which to help those who do not have the technical background. They don't teach digital communications in medical or business school.  Seems they no longer teach logical thinking and arguments either.