Oops... the cables I mentioned were $40 not 12 something... my mistake. They sound really good though.
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@kennythekey
If you can make some tweaks to your existing equipment and get what you are looking for, it sounds like a win-win.
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pindac,
No, I don’t feel that way at all..I’ve already been through all the Typical Investigations and Purchases…And their consequences.
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@kennythekey An analogy, In nearly all cases a flea on a dogs back, keep safe beyond the gnaw area of the dog and will never ascend the hair to get a view of the outside world, the flea usually spends it life down under on the dogs skin.
Very rarely a flea ascends a hair and sees the real world and all it has to offer.
Are you not feeling like such an individual in relation to Audio Equipment, where your route is not the typical Investigation and Purchases made that were the end result?
I certainly feel an affinity to such types of individual.
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cantorgate
Yes, I had read comments regarding the service and delivery side of AI that were not favorable. I think when you deal with a one man show company it’s going to be about timing. So, where was he when you stepped in or place in line. Then there’s the person’s social nature to deal with. Even of more concern, what if he just gives up or worse!? You call and nobody’s home.
I have had a number of dealings with one man shows and have to say luck’s been on my side. This includes my primary dealer. My main components, TW-Acustic, Tron Electric, and Horning Hybrid are all one man shows. The exception is Boulder Amplifiers, and I was looking to switch to AI. Now that you brought this to my attention about AI, in retrospect, I’m wondering if I’m not a little nuts taking such leaps of faith?
I appreciate the warning, and BTW, your system is really nice!
Kenny
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@kennythekey
I owned the Audible Illusions 3A with external LPS some years ago. It was my first tube experience and I enjoyed it while I had it. I let it go because of service lead time concerns. To be fair, the one repair issue I had was addressed quickly. But AI is a one man shop and you might want to look into the experience others have had. OTOH, it’s a wonderful preamp.
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The value of a great dealer rules!
From the start, I had my speakers not far from the walls for 2 reasons. I am dealing with a front to back distance of 14 feet, plus I felt obliged to follow the rule of thirds (triangle) as the speaker manufacturer also illustrates how to set them up; Rule of 3, toe-in, and corners. However, my speakers did not sound best this way, and no corners to be had. They sounded best closer to the front wall, with rule of 3, and a very slight bit of toe-in. So, I started this post to get more air at me, and figured that might happen by upgrading my cables or line stage that were both very old.
I sent Jeff my dealer an email seeking his input about cables and letting him know what my budget was. Within 30 minutes I got a response. You all know that my room is not perfect and so does Jeff. Jeff told me to start by moving my speakers out into the room, so kudos to those who suggested this to me. I had mentioned to Jeff that Tommy the speaker manufacturer illustrates toe-in for the setup of the speakers. Jeff added, forget that, I never set them up that way. Instead, level your tonearm and adjust the VTA, so that the headshell is lower than the bearing and then work back up as desired. Jeff, never brought up the cables or purchasing anything from him.
This advice saved me $6,000. I am now working on the VTA adjustments to maximize the added air I now have. Is my sound perfect? No, I have an imperfect room. However, my system sounds great.
Later, I can think about replacing my shaky arm cable, and get shorter speaker ones.
Kenny
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I appreciate all the positive comments from the community, and I’m not a stranger to the vast numbers of opinions in here and out there. So far, I have not spent a dime, and my system has a fresh sound with specific improvements that I was looking for. I know my room is not perfect, so what I just gained in one area slightly took away from another. Finding a balance that suits me best is what I’m doing right now and it’s free.
At this point of my life, I’m not in experimental mode, so those types of options are out. I have monoblocks, but my speaker cables are 12’ long due to previous amplification and a different imperfect room. Yea, I can cut them down and re-terminate them. My phono cable has a loose connector that I have to keep screwing with. It’s old! So, my system isn’t quite fine in all areas. If my choice was to upgrade my line stage, I would still have to deal with those cables or live with them. I have decided to deal with them, and get a fresh set. I have a fixed budget and I’m pretty sure my dealer will work with me to get there. After all that has been said and done here, this is my most comfortable option.
Thanks, everyone. Later.
Kenny
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@kennythekey "I’m sure I can get him to suggest what to use for the whole package and maybe this might be a loom of cables."
I’d recommend trying one component cable set at a time -vs- jumping over to a full loom all at once or you really won’t know where the weak links were prior. And remember, each of your components have different wiring inside so what really constitutes an end-to-end full loom anyhow.
Btw, I run Cross, Clear, and Clear Reflections in my Cardas sets of cables and the Cross work great for speakers as long as the upstream cables are decent. If your source, pre/amp cables are limited, the downstream Cross speaker cables may seem limiting at first. I don’t find that to be the case with good upstream cables.
You can move different type cables up/down the loom to experiment and realize differences. Maybe your contact friend can kindly let you borrow & demo some cables to try on loan, and this can be super helpful in finding a right mix for you and your ears in your system. What works in one system may not work well in another fwiw.
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@kennythekey It is pleasing to see you have the idea if producing a Build Your Own Cable as an option. Substantial monies are to be saved, even when using Connectors that are known to be an upgrade to how the signal passes through them.
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@tablejickey + 1
Firstly the MSRP of your system is irrelevant here, I just like this expression “You can’t make a silk purse out of a sows ear” Another favourite “Some tweaks for twits” Think diminishing return, placebo, a little returnable experimenting will enlighten you not lighten your wallet.
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Your setup is fine.
I would seek the best available pressing of your preferred music and avoid audio forums.
No cable/tweaky add on will magically transform it like having a dedicated room.
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audphile1 - What goes around comes around. Sometime back I contacted Jeff about replacing my speaker cables with the Audience. However, my Shilabe cartridge was aging and was starting to lose its pizazz. Again, I had to make a choice and bought the Verismo from Jeff instead. Only last night I was thinking about the Audience again after moving out my speakers. I started poking around and saw that the House of Stereo has a demo of the SX discounted. Even with my speakers moved out, I believe I can get by with 2m. Thank you for the advice about starting with the speakers and then move up the chain.
mclinnguy - No worries, all information is useful.
pindac - Looking into it, I noticed that information about the wire was somewhat sketchy…disappearing. Unfortunate.
Having Wireworld Polaris and Cardas Cross cables you all now realize that I’ve been out of the loop and poking around for years. I am basically ignorant with what’s up today, so why my post. In my mind, like a line stage for example, cables should not impart their own sound or color (grunge) onto your system. However, I see descriptions, posts, whatever, about tweaking one’s sound with these. Today, I want to hear my system as-is, so what do I choose or try, since I’ve never heard my system that way…With what I’ve been using? Am I making sense?
Kenny
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I can't believe what happened. I was changing around my system and needed cables a little longer than 1m. I wanted silver coated cables for sound quality and searched amazon. And there they were... 4ft silver coated cables.... the price made me think this is a scam.... can you believe $12.60 something for silver coated cables so I said what the heck I'll bite for that price. They looked very professional when they came so I put them in my system..... I just thought I had clarity up until then. These cables blew me away and I still can't believe it.
You got scammed. I have seen those same cables on Ali express for $3.99. Another audiofool is separated from his money. Bet you couldn't tell the difference between those and your previous cables with a blind A/B test anyway.
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I can't believe what happened. I was changing around my system and needed cables a little longer than 1m. I wanted silver coated cables for sound quality and searched amazon. And there they were... 4ft silver coated cables.... the price made me think this is a scam.... can you believe $12.60 something for silver coated cables so I said what the heck I'll bite for that price. They looked very professional when they came so I put them in my system..... I just thought I had clarity up until then. These cables blew me away and I still can't believe it. I ordered 4 more for secondary systems I have. I'm not going to mention their name because someone may think I'm a dealer trying to push a product.
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I think Furutech have secured all the ACW 11 Wire Bulk Purchase, as this has vanished from the market place. It is a loss for DIY Cable Builders not having an option on Purchasing this wire outside of a Big Name Brand.
A Furutech equivalent Cable, using the same Wire and ones own connector choice had a substantial saving to the advertised Big Brand Pricing.
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@mclinnguy…no I haven’t tried Nordost Norse 2 speaker cables. I was torn between Frey 2 and Audience and decided on the Audience. If it was between Tyr 2 and Audience I would probably go Tyr 2 but I just didn’t want to spend that much on cables (got a good deal on FrontRow).
My concern was, since I’m using Frey 2 and Heimdall 2 power cords, the scale could tip a bit towards leaner sound if I got Frey 2 speaker cables. I think I struck a really nice balance with the Audience.
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Apologies to the OP for my question, but @audphile1 I wonder since you seem to love the Nordost Tyr 2 XLR's, have you tried Nordost Norse speaker cables in your system?
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Kenny…just checked High Water Sounds and they’re Audience dealer. I highly recommend Audience cables but they’re kind of pricey.
My recommendation, especially if you’re going to tackle one cable upgrade, is to start the upgrade process with speaker cables and work your way up the audio chain. I owned Audience AU24SX (you can find them used at a good price) and just recently upgraded to FrontRow speaker cables. The AU24SX is awesome. Detailed, extended and natural sounding.
However, if buying new from the dealer, they’re not cheap. See if you can borrow these cables to try in your system.
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First, I'm going to zero in my speakers.
soix - Yeah, the Cross are older than many of the members here, but they must be broken in by now! LOL. I'm looking at a total budget of under $6K.
audphile1 - Now that cables at least feel the way to go, I think I'll run this by Jeff. I mean, he sold me everything but the Boulder, so should know what works best. He does have a habit of trying to blow my budget on just one thing, so invest in the best you can get with your money on-hand. I'm sure I can get him to suggest what to use for the whole package and maybe this might be a loom of cables.
ghdprentice - Ha..Ha..Ha! If I do any or all that you suggest for my wife, then I can't afford my cables. 
tablejockey - I wanted to ask you if you're after an original MR71 case or if you're looking for one of those custom wood jobs like I have?
Kenny
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In dealing with your wife. I recommend a grand jester before she sees them. A trip to the Caribbean or a diamond bracelet whatever she likes. Then let her see it and say how wonderful it sounds.
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Sure why not…try cables. Something less warm than Cardas. Nordost, DH Labs, Kimber are some that come to mind.
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Maybe, do the cables?
Yeah, when I tried the Cross in my system they sounded veiled so I’d think moving to something more transparent would better reveal a sense of openness and space that you’re looking for without necessarily having to give up anything in tonality or musicality. Can’t comment on your other cables as I’m not familiar with them, but I’d think even just replacing the Cross alone could be very beneficial and maybe all you need. What’s your budget, and would you look for new or used?
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Thanks soix, I used those Herbie's gliders on a rack that I built with my daughter for her system. My speakers sit upon custom Silent Running Audio platforms for isolation with completely flat bottoms. I'll talk to my dealer Jeff to find out if it would be okay to drill into the SRAs to do the same thing. That would make it much easier to move the speakers around. I like that!
audphile1 - My Boulder L3AE line stage was built in 1990, and was one of the first Boulder Amplifiers products. It received excellent reviews at the time and still does if you look around. I picked it up as a slightly used demo from a Listen Up store back then for $1,250, but the retail was $3,500. The salesman was a friend of mine. Mark Levinson was in their heyday back then, so I had the Boulder inserted into their top system being demonstrated. I could not hear any difference betwen the Boulder and Levinson preamp. This revealed to me that the Boulder did not impart its own sound on the system. About 5 years ago, I took it to Boulder Amplifiers that was now a much different company manufacturing products so expensive that I could never afford. The guys their hovered over my L3AE and jumped on the opportunity to replace the caps. I've been using this line stage ever since.
My TW-Acustic 300B amps are made one at a time by Thomas in Germany who owns the company. I've met him a couple of times at the RMAF shows in Denver. Jeff at High Water Sound is his U.S. distributor who presents his variety of products at those shows and others (i.e., Raven Tables). The Horning Hybrid speakers that I now own, I purchased at the show after it ended. They were demoed with the 300Bs that I would get later. My 300Bs were the 3rd pair made by Thomas. Today, he's still making the model, but the cosmetics have dramatically changed to satisfy the high end market as they sell for $30K. As for my 300Bs, I will find out from Jeff how they were improved beyond their look. I hope so, as the original retail on mine were $18K and I did not pay that. I can say that they do not lack in transparency, and they are the finest piece of equipment currently in my system.
Commentaries:
https://www.stereophile.com/content/high-water-sounds-sounds-joy-tw-acustic-raven-and-cessaro-horn-acoustics
https://www.stereophile.com/content/high-water-sound-tw-acustic-cessaro-horn-acoustics-codia-acoustic-design-stein-music
Maybe, do the cables?
Kenny
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Glad to hear, and goodonya for giving it another shot! A lot of people use these Herbies Gliders to facilitate moving their speakers, and many also report improvements in sound as well. They’re not very expensive, and you can return them if they don’t work out so well worth a look I’d think.
https://herbiesaudiolab.com/products/threaded-stud-glider
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Good to hear you tried and are hearing the difference. More resolving cables will help a bit with soundstage but I’m not familiar with your amps and preamp. And that’s where you will most likely hit the nail on the head. You gotta start somewhere.
You’re using a solid state preamp with tubed amps correct? May be try a tube linestage? Different amps may be?
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Gentlemen,
I let go of my reservations about moving my speakers out into the room. The difference from prior trials, is that I pulled them out farther than ever before. I then toed them in as well, and I'm still experimenting with this. Right now the drivers are just outside of pointing at me directly. Audphile1, soix, and hifiman5, you were right and I was stubborn. This made a huge difference. I put on Stan Getz at the Cafe Au Go Go and Astrud's voice resonated into the room. The system gained energy along with the bass, also sounding truly authentic and equally relaxed. I was almost present in the room, so I'll keep tweaking the placement until I can order a drink from the cocktail waitress! - LOL...Thanks
The downside, is it will be a battle with the wife when she sees what I've done, so I'll probably have to figure out a way to more easily move my speakers back and forth.
So, now what? It seems I'm somehow stuck in the same place I was before...Upgrade the cables or the line stage? What a hobby...Ha..Ha..Ha
Kenny
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@kennythekey I agree with previous comments about moving the speakers out into the room. It should improve the depth of the sound. Have you tried using the “Rule of Thirds”. That was the secret for me locking the speakers into the room. Good luck!
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I’d still try pulling the speakers a few feet into the room and see if it yields any improvement in the areas you’re interested in. You didn’t say if you’ve tried that.
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Hey Kenny I have to say your system looks fantastic to me and the way you describe the sound is what most of us are going for. I think your cables are just fine and your phono stage too if it were me I'd add a tubed linestage to the mix in place of the Boulder. Tron makes good ones and there are so many other choices out there, you are working with a great dealer sounds like I'm sure they may have some suggestions.
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soix - The reason for the speakers wanting corners is for bass. There are 2 bass drivers in the rear of each speaker that are ported out the back. By themselves in this setup, the speakers can normally go down to 30hz. With the addition of the custom subs everything improved including the extra detail. So, my system sounds better than it did with corners. With both my old setup and this one, I still wished for more air around me. You may be right, but the common denominator in both cases are the same cables and the Boulder line stage being in both locations. However, the amp I was using in my old setup was a CJ Premier 11a. I will definitely try moving my speakers out into the room.
ghdprentice - Thanks for the kind words. And, switching the conversation to the line stage. I’m also wondering if losing the painting on my front wall and adding some treatment for dispersion would help open it up in my direction?
tablejocky - Okay, that’s what I started to think about regarding treatments. Regarding the MR71, I can’t come up with the company anymore. However, Audio Classics (audioclassics.com) sells original cabinets.
Kenny
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Kenny…the fact that you don’t have sidewalls and corners is not entirely a downside. You can try treating the front wall but I’m not sure it will accomplish what you’re looking for. You need a more transparent and open sounding amplifier and speakers combination. Your cardas cables aren’t helping but I don’t believe they’re the single culprit.
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kenneythekey,
consider a consultation with a room treatment company-whatever diffusion/damping you can get away with without ruining room aesthetic?
A little off topic-I believe ive mentioned in the past admiring your Mac MR 71 case. Is that company still in business?
My 1967 MR 71 case continues to disintegrate and needs to be retired.
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Beautiful system and space. I’m 71 as well and very happy to have achieved exactly the sound quality I have wanted all these decades. I like the way you blended the audio rack with components.
I would see if you can find an Audio Research Reference 3 phonostage to try. I think it has detail, staging and natural sound you want.
The old Cardas were a bit warm and not as neutral as, for instance Transparent… I’d give those a try… close to the source first.
Enjoy!
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I want to fill my room more, so around me…my primary objective is to open my front to back soundstage and possibly improve upon what I’ve already have.
I don’t think it’s possible to achieve what you’re looking for with your speakers placed as they are and counter to how they’re designed to work without corners, and throwing $$$ at cables or equipment probably won’t help much either because you’re just fighting an uphill battle against physics. If you haven’t already, I’d try pulling the speakers 3 feet out into the room just to see what happens (hey, it’s free right?), and I suspect that alone will give you a lot of what you’re looking for. If your speakers sound poor being pulled further into the room then my only suggestion is to get new speakers that will work better in your room and can give you more of what you’re looking for or just live with what you have given the room/placement issues. Sorry, I don’t mean to be negative but neither do I want to see anyone throw potentially big $$$ into new/different equipment that likely can’t fix what looks to be mainly a compromised room/speaker situation. In any event, best of luck in achieving what you’re looking for.
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audiophile1,
You have very solid points about steering me away from cables and concentrating instead on treatments and speaker placement. I’m aware of the rules that affect the soundstage, but not that simple in my case. For the most part, I have followed the manufacturer’s guidelines for proper setup of my Horning Hybrid Aristotle speakers. The bottom line is that these speakers want corners and I don’t have them in my room, so open on both sides of the wall. I’m stuck with that. My old house had the corners, but even after experimenting with toe-in, this simply pushed the soundstage forward and shrank its width, so smaller. My room front to back is only 14 feet, and my head is already 3 feet from the back wall. These speakers want the front wall to reflect and the back wall to absorb. I use a large tapestry behind me and curtains for the windows. This is not a dedicated audio space even though it looks it. I have to include my better half in the equation. With the corners missing I gain detail, but cripples the bass, so the sound loses its foundation and shrinks. I have compensated for this successfully by having custom open baffle subs built. These have changed everything and have brought my system to life.
Do you think treating the front wall will give me more of what I seek. I do have a large painting there in the middle that I’m very fond of.
Kenny
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pindac,
Thank you for all the info you provided about the PC Triple C cable. I have checked out your links, plus I found a couple more of interest. BTW - I may already be using the Ortofon tag wires as you refer to them. I’ve always considered using a loom of cables throughout, but my main component upgrades always got in the way due to cost. One site, Osage Audio, covers Acoustic Revive products that include single-ended interconnects of PC Triple C cable. Another well established manufacturer, Furutech, offers power cords of the same. They also offer other cords made from a variety of materials.
My main dealer, Jeff of High Water Sound, is very well respected in Audio. It was through him that gave me the sound I’ve been after. He is also a Furutech dealer, so I’m going contact him to get his thoughts about the PC Triple C Cable. My approach to this cable search was to include him anyway, after first reaching out to this community, so I have a well-rounded idea of my options. The same applies to my possible line stage upgrade.
Kenny
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Kenny…looking at your system pictures the speakers are very close to the front wall and there’s not much acoustic treatment.
Swapping cables out won’t give you that wrap around soundstage you’re looking for. That’s more amp/speakers/room combination given the source and preamp are up to the task and I believe that to be the case in your system.
Have you tried pulling speakers our more into the room. You can also tow them in so they fire direct at the listening chair.
It sounds like you’re happy with the sound overall. Hence my recommendation to play with speaker placement and room acoustics.
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@kennythekey I have over the past few year carried out my own investigations in Cables produced using PC Triple C Wire and D.U.C.C Wire as the Signal Path.
What did I learn immediately through the trials and increasing the Cables using these Wire Types, to be extended through the System.
Digital is going to show a increased noticeability that a Signal Path has undergone a change of Wire Type. Analogue is less noticeable and requires a little extra attention to the listening, or even a little extra for the Cable to Burn In, before the changes that are occurring are perceived in a way a reasonable assessment can be made.
The same also goes for Power Cables produced using these same Wires, I myself strongly suggest that Power Cables are not overlooked.
I have wrote on the Gon on a few occasions about my usage of these Wires and how my loaning them into other Systems impacted on those who were receiving demo's. The use of PC Triple C Wire spread quite fast through a Forum Hifi Community in the UK, especially to the point, other ideas for the usage of it evolved and it become a Signal Path Wire throughout the system, as Umbilical and Internal Hook Up.
As a Wire impacting on a System, in a nutshell, it will remove veiled sound, opening up a more Voluminous Soundstage, deeper and wider is usually detectable after a short period of Burn In.
In use for myself and others who have adopted the wire, the general discussion makes it known how the perception of a increased lucidity through the sound produced, improves the Envelope, Attack, Dynamics, Micro Details. Once these traits are discovered to have manifested, when returning to previously used Cables, even allowing for a period of settlement, in all cases I know, the old cables used are Superseded with Triple C Wire used.
I have shown through the Links the most budget entry to being able to experience the Wire.
I started my investigation with the Cart' Tag Wires.
SAEC also use this Wire in their most recent produced $13K Tonearm
PC Triple C / EX is also an option, especially if Silver is seen to have an importance.
https://www.fromjapan.co.jp/japan/en/auction/yahoo/input/h1143602773/
https://www.fromjapan.co.jp/japan/en/special/order/confirm/https%3A%2F%2Fjp.mercari.com%2Fitem%2Fm48219969165/13_1/
https://www.fromjapan.co.jp/japan/en/special/order/confirm/https%3A%2F%2Fjp.mercari.com%2Fitem%2Fm15020742609/13_1/
https://www.fromjapan.co.jp/japan/en/special/order/confirm/audio9:10000582/2_1/
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mclinnguy,
Yes, I’ve played around somewhat with my interconnects and have settled where they stand today. Not much changes doing so, anyway. It seems the sum equals the whole.
I’m actually happy with power cords, and wonder if I should have spent more of that money on the interconnects? I targeted these cords specifically to the components. For example, and the most dramatic power cord upgrade was when I upgraded my 300B monoblocks to the Shun Mook ones that use original Western Electric wire. A leap of faith that actually worked big time. I have a killer cord for my Tron Seven phono, that was recommended to me by Jeff at High Water Sound, but right now I can’t remember it. My Boulder line stage uses a hard wired cord, so not replaceable.
Kenny
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soix,
You make a great point about the improvements I’m looking for!
To summarize my sound, it’s relaxed, laid back, very detailed, and open. Authentic to the recording as it is revealing, is the best way for me to describe it in my space. So, what am I missing, or what am I looking for? Obviously, I don’t want to lose anything I already have. For my medium size room, I have a huge left and right soundstage with decent depth. Of course, I would wish to improve what I first summarized. However, to be more specific, there’s a significant amount of air within the soundstage as described. I would like to open that up more towards me. For example, when playing a live small venue recording (e.g., Bill Evans at Town Hall), I want to fill my room more, so around me. My problem, is I don’t know if the recording has it, or is the limitation on my side? Maybe, a recommendation of a recording that provides what I’m looking for from someone who has achieved this, would benefit me and answer this question. Otherwise, my primary objective is to open my front to back soundstage and possibly improve upon what I’ve already have.
Thank you
Kenny
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Your system resembles mine in the fact that I also have 4 different interconnects  Have you played around with their placement in your system?
You don’t mention power cables, and in my experience these can have a greater effect than interconnects. For others with more experience than I to comment what are they?
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That’s a lot of great information, but what’s really needed is what specific type of improvements you’re looking for. I’ll just say off the top that Cardas makes some really fine cables, but I tried the Cross in my system years ago and from what I remember they don’t belong in your system no matter what else you decide to change. Just one initial thought.
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