Tweaks you got rid of because they were not effective (enough)?
oldhvymec I had try to be clear about my way to see this hobby.... But you are right, the world is more vast than the way we see it each one of us.... My best regards to you.... |
Audio is not about the "taste" for a product among the millions there are, it is about how to learn to listen music and sounds.....
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>. Well I'll say this, you have YOUR ideas about, what it is to be an audiofiler. I like model railroading to, that hobby goes from "taking pictures" to electrical, to "SOUND", to paint and finish, landscape, mini, MAXY, copper, silver, nickel/silver, brass, plastic, cast, portable, fixed, ect,ect,ect. A LOT of the model railroader I know, don't even have a layout, or a single, PART. Maybe just pics... Sometime the audiofile journey is MORE than just HIGH QUALITY sound, it is the very small parts, that make up our VERY diverse community. Someday I'll go deaf, blind, whatever, will I still be an audiofiler? TO THE GRAVE.. I think? My cousins can't hear a thing... They love to dance, and be around music. Can't hear a thing... Pure feel.... They won't wear rubber sole shoes to the dance, LOL messes with the music, my cousin says...LOL Tweaks..... The next door neighbor finally moved.. "Tweaker, away" Long live the hearing aid...I wish batteries were included.. Eye glasses aren't far behind..."Tweaks that QUIT working".. Glasses broke, yesterday... :-) Definite chicken feedin' time... Regards |
For example unused wall plugs in your audio room are part of the electrical grid of your house.... Putting some device on them ( some sell their devices and i create mine) is only a step in controlling the electrical grid noise floor of the house...."a controlled electrical field". "embedding" I would had better wrote " electrical grid noise floor controls".... But anyway what i speak about is clear.... The word "embedding" is for describing the way any audio part is immersed and connected to all the electrical grid of the house and more.... Thanks for the correction.... |
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-1, for Vibrapods. Bought the ones that were recommended for my components, by weight. Within a week; half had flattened to nothing, Contacted Vibrapod, via email (twice), politely describing the problem and never heard back. That was over 15 years ago, so: no chi-com virus excuse, for the lack of response. Really; no excuse, except they know they're junk. |
Audio Sensibility grounding devices. Didn't hear a whit of difference. https://audiosensibility.com/blog/products-2/grounding-devices-2/ |
@mahgister,You are right nobody can argue against this.... I put together these 3 dimensions and called that "embeddings"... To my surprise in all audio threads in all forums, no one has a concept about that, they speak about "tweaks" yes....But a "tweak" is a partial solution and sometimes a trade-off with negative effects, and above all a tweak is vulnerable to placebo effect the day of their evaluation .... But a trail of listenings experiments, with incremental improvement in the 3 embedding dimensions each weeks for 2 years like mine, i would not call that "Tweaks", i called that embeddings controls installation....Embeddings controls are NOT secondary addition to the system, like "tweaks", they are the MAIN object of an audiophile pursuit... Choosing an electronic component is important, but embedding it rightly is at least at the same level of priority.... My point is any relatively good basic audio system sound at his utmost potential S.Q. ONLY if rightly embedded... My other point is UPGRADING anything before listening first to the truest potential of what we already own is most of the times illusion and deception programmed... My last point is the embedding process is NOT a secondary tweaking, but is the fundamental course to take in audio experience, most important than ANY upgrade of an electronic component....If you want to know what you are doing without throwing money to the universal hyped advertisement campaings in all forums.... Audio is not about the "taste" for a product among the millions there are, it is about how to learn to listen music and sounds..... My regards to all.... « It is not enough to see what we hears, we must listen with our eyes»- Groucho Marx |
@mijostyn, ’cd318, surely you jest. I’ve heard some amazing looking systems at Hi Fi shows.’ Yes, I have too. The most memorable being the Avantgarde Trio based one, but you must have heard some real bad ones too! The ones where you’re compelled to embarrassingly leave the demo room after a few minutes, if not seconds. Hmm, there’s an idea, maybe demonstrators might want to consider leaving some feedback sheets. It must be demoralising to have to watch folks keep on hurriedly leaving your uber expensive decked out room all day. @mahgister, ’Any system at any price must be put in a controlled mechanical dimension, in a controlled electrical field, and in a controlled acoustical environment... This is what i call an embedding...’ I don’t think anyone is arguing with that in principle. Surely it’s only a question of degree. |
Good post! I have tried and owned many of the “best” Cables on the market, done blind tests with friends. Seriously, if we’re all being honest. I have friends that have some of the best stuff on the planet, and they literally picked the 100 dollar cables, power cords, etc. at least 50% of the time. Even if the stuff specs out better on measuring equipment, you just really can’t tell the difference!. 15,000 for a pair of cables? Come on man! |
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@tbakin It’s always good to have a reality check with one’s self about whether one hears a difference or not. I’m glad you enjoyed the question I posed; there are so many debates over these products and phenomena that I wanted to try just to elicit a list from people of what they decided, for themselves, were just not helping. It’s likely that none of the answers here can add up to anything like an objective answer, given the range of different equipment, rooms, ears, and tastes involved. But some patterns will probably emerge, patterns which may provide at least a pretext for some of us to try something, avoid something, or do some interesting experiments for ourselves. |
I LOVE the question from the original OP! Frankly, experience over years has taught me that auditory hallucinations abound, undergirded by shameful, greedy marketing. To wit - "I know what I heard - and I promise you the $20K, 3-foot speaker cable on cryogenically frozen risers sounds better!" Smart, sophisticated people become infantile science deniers spouting absolute alchemic bunk as if it's fact and then go on the attack towards the physics-educated "non-believers" among us who don't sign on. Their typical narrative - our systems are substandard, our hearing is flawed, etc., etc. Now that my rant is out of the way, I agree that the right, complementary components are key. Upgraded components generally upgrade the sound. Different combinations of different components (Tube, SS, etc.) offer different "flavors" and that's all about individual tastes and preferences. Paying attention to equipment specs and that which can be objectively measured is certainly worthwhile. Room conditions, sound dampening etc. - all sound physics and worth paying attention to. Cleaning up some power supplies (or combinations thereof) to eliminate extraneous noise has also helped in my experience. I have always loved this hobby for the MUSIC. Unfortunately, so many of my audiophile (audiofool) brethren have been totally distracted from that essence by dressed up lies designed to separate one from their cash. |
hilde45: Yes, sad but true... We've been without Internet, much of the past 3 days, due to AT&T's incompetence so... Aside from dealing with AT&T "help" who have admitted that they did not even know what a "land line" is we have been otherwise shielded from daily news. TV-wise we limit ourselves (and rightly so) to reruns of MacGyver, Stargate SG1 and Kolchak the Night Stalker. DeKay |
I have many tweaks that worked but these ones that did not: - expensive feet under amps, CD players and DACs (Unlike under speakers where they have had a big effect, and under the Hi-Fi rack, again a positive effect). - external clocks - crystals, anywhere - raising cables above floor - gutwire grounding cable (other grounding systems have worked) - Bass traps - power conditioners |
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Probably mass loading components, but I may have gone a tad overboard... Here’s a pic of the previous system (since replaced due to tweaking it). https://www.culture24.org.uk/asset_arena/8/71/06/360178/v0_master.jpg Sorry, but this pic (in context to mass loading) never get’s old to me. DeKay |
I worked with a guy that had 50 years of experience, everyone was different, every year. I worked with another guy that had 50 one (1) year experiences, all the same.. Who left, who stayed? A hint, everything is in order.. :-) spencem6 posts That was an interesting post.. that is a "tweak’’ that works for you but probably not for me... I like the approach though, you actually repaired the problem with a proper fix, NOW keep what you have left. Take care of those puppies.. I’m OVERLY blessed, hyper sensitivity, my whole life.. ear plug for 50 years...ALL the time.. Regards |
From most of this discussion I gather that for many here a tweak is something other than source, control, amplification, speakers, and connecting wires. A second component of this discussion relates to ability to hear a difference which becomes the crux of retaining or eliminating the change item. I wear two very expensive hearing aids that almost completely correct my high frequency loss (too many Dead, Primus, etc concerts). Do they count as a tweak or as necessary equipment? I see (hear!) them as necessary. My VPI Scout rests on a Cloud 10 platform. I can hear the difference with the aids, I cannot without them. I have spent no money on special fuses, solutions, silver paste, wall attachments, wiggly wooden rods, dots, marking pens, etc, etc, etc, deciding instead to spend it on vinyl. I'm happy with my choices which seems to be a major point of this hobby for me. I hope that the "tweaks" that others hear as improvement make them as happy as I. |
Just a remark about my 500 hundred audio system... I never pretend that it will sound on par with a 50,000 dollars one... I say that a 500 hundred dollars one rightly embed may sound so great that you will forget about the urge to buy a better one...Music in 3-d is music in 3-d with + or - details.... I also said give me the 50,000 dollars one and i will do the same creative embedding process with it.... Any system need to be in the conditions for his optimal working S.Q. And these conditions are not only sound electronical design to begin with, but necessary embeddings minimal controls installation... Any system at any price must be put in a controlled mechanical dimension, in a controlled electrical field, and in a controlled acoustical environment... This is what i call an embedding... Tweaks are not an incremental listening set of experiments with appropriate creative adapted and suitable homemade devices... They are ready made costly products sold for profit and generically conceived for all....My embeddings devices are modified idea coming from others or my own ideas adapted for my specific need.... Branded costly products are not for me.... I succeeded my way.... And there is no placebo effect in an incremental process of improvement distributed in 2 years of listenings experiments... With a singular tweak in one listening trying a placebo effect is possible yes.... All my post are posts i would have love to read 7 years ago when Hi-Fi experience was for me inaccessible and costly... I want to give hope enthusiasm and impulse towars creativity to the beginners.... The supposed fact that hi-fi experience is very costly is false and it is a myth.... Any rightly embed system may be Hi-Fi experience at peanuts costs... That is not saying that there is no difference between cheap electronic components or design and great one.... I am nut perhaps but not stupid.... :) |
Isn’t that just one man’s journey into the unknown leaving behind a metaphysical mindmap for the benefit of not only those that may wish to follow but the author himself? <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.. I don’t know what it was, to tell the truth. I read that book to the point of totally "NOT understanding it". Come to find out no one else could either.. In the audio world, terms get thrown around like they mean something.. They may to some folks. Vibration, Harmonics, SOUND. IS 101 in a good mechanics learning. Mechanics learn that FEELING, Hearing and knowing about sound, is WHY thing stay together, or FLY apart.. Feeling = 60 hz and below Hearing = from 27.5 hz -19+ KHz Knowing = sound above 21Khz This is the reason for my position, most "Tweaks" work for the person doing it. Usually not me. WHY? Because I was the guy that had to go back to the tweak, and fix the real problem, AND pull the tweak out to get back to square one... REALLY.. Example: Two guys buy amps. One buys my cheap Class D. the other buy a top of the line Pass. Nothing left out... My amp requires everything under the sun to make it sound GOOD, PC, internal wire upgrade, fuse swap, Buffer board upgrades, EVEN complete Power Supply swaps. Still that Pass with a cheap PS cable, and some cheap zip cord, and cheap RCAs or even CHEAPER XLRs with good speakers and an OK source, will sound MUCH better.. NO TWEAKS.. Most don’t work because they don’t work.. I’ve found that routing cables, letting things settle, VERY minor speaker movements, and PUTTY pinching, are all the tweaks I usually need.. MOST of the other stuff, enjoy it... it’s fun, at least mahgister and millercarbon aren’t spending a fortune on it.. I know my rooms, I know my equipment.. I know my equipment will work in your rooms. WHY? the way the equipment is set up.. We start at the top and work down, not at the bottom and work our way up.. That was done a long time ago.. In my teens 15-16.. I’m 65 now.. NOT $$$ wise, but what I (ME) work with.. I like Mac.. I like VMPS, I like mine... SO I learned MY stuff... Don’t we all. Back to the Shop, and Time to feed the chickens... I wish you guys could see the new planars from GSR. WOW... olay, amego...BOOM BOOM just around the corner.. I think I’m gonna name them "kenjit" Mini’s and Maxis. :-) Let you guys run with that... What can I say he inspires me.. Mercy. lord love a duck... Regards.. |
My first reaction to, "embedment" wasn't exactly positive. Since; I've adjusted my thinking. Some simply communicate their thoughts differently. As many of us understand (sometimes, from decades of experience); what are being termed such, are prerequisites for any good music venue's viability. In a properly, "embedded" home environment; the better the associated gear, the more obvious and efficacious any tweaks should become. That's- IF, from the start, they are worth their weight in salt and compatible. I'm referring to performance, since aural acuity varies greatly. KUDOS, to those that experiment, regardless of result. Also: Some seem to miss the fact, that improvements in sound are (or- should be) cumulative. The only limit is one's own satisfaction (far as I can tell, anyway). |
@mahgister, Are you able to think? :) Good question, but a little naughty from someone with such a philosophical bent as yourself. @oldhvymec, Kinda like Bruce Lee’s book, that no one could understand, BUT HIM... Isn’t that just one man’s journey into the unknown leaving behind a metaphysical mindmap for the benefit of not only those that may wish to follow but the author himself? Of course, as usual, it’s a case of one person’s experiences and memories translated into words and then translated back again by another... Things sometimes can and do get lost in translation just as often as at other times things may be found. As for that question of whether a $500 system that’s been well set up and placed in a sympathetic room can sound as good as a $50,000 one that’s not - I think we all know the answer to that. At least those of us who have been to as many shows as I have. Things may have improved lately with setup but cramped hotel rooms are usually not the best place to demo new products. Hi-Fi equipment selection, setup and room interface matters - a lot. |
For going on 30 years my reference standard for cones and footers was Black Diamond Racing. Still love the Shelf and Round Things, but almost all the Cones have been removed for Nobsound springs. The springs do require some adjustment. The sound varies a lot depending on the number of springs for the weight of the component. This is a drawback if you want something simple, but a big plus if you want to be able to tune the sort of sound you want. So BDR Cones out, Nobsound springs in. |
Describing the potential problems or issues that require tweaking is not so hard. Nor is coming up with generic terms for it. What often is hard though is not only recommending specific tweaks because "they work" but explaining how they work and why so someone who cares might reasonably assess how well a specific solution may or may not work for them. The devil is always in the details, including the how and why, even with "tweaks". I’m not one to spend time and money on something unexplained just because some guy on the internet says it works and "sounds better", but that’s just me. |
Took me a while to catch onto mahgister, but once I did my understanding of what he calls "embeddings" is correct and proven by being exactly what I have been doing because it works, for going on 3 decades now. The things we’re talking about, we really only understand them well at a very simplistic level. No one really has hardly any idea why one thing makes the sound deep and wide and real while another is flat and lifeless. Anyone can hear the difference, its predictably explaining why and how to do it where we get hung up. I have compared our current understanding of electricity to something like the way a cave man knows fire: fire hot. Fire burn. Fire cook food. Fire hot. We know enough about electricity to put insulation around stuff to keep it from shorting out. That’s about what we know. Why do certain insulators sound better than others? We have some ideas. No one really knows. What is really going on with all this constantly changing electric field, anyway? No one has a clue. If they did then it would be easy to see why painting some paste on the outside of a wire makes the sound so much better. Sorry, be nice to tell you all what I’m talking about, but the Hateful18 et al make that impossible. Just know there’s good reasons why people who have heard my system are so impressed. Its not the components. Its the tweaks. Like paint and paste on wires. That’s just one aspect of "embeddings", electricity, electric fields, whatever you want to call it. Its for real, and anyone can test and demonstrate this reality with something as simple as suspending speaker cables above the floor with paper cups or rubber bands. That absolutely zero of the people who will argue this point will bother to try this simple experiment tells you everything you need to know about them. Another "embedding" is acoustics. If someone said GIK everyone would race to see who could prostrate themselves and brag how great it is the fastest. But mahgister says "embeddings" and uses bottles and stuff and everyone rolls their eyes. This again tells us more about them than mahgister. The third "embedding" is vibration. Everything vibrates. Everything. Run a signal through a wire, just a plain old wire, the wire vibrates. Has to. Because the signal is electric, it produces a magnetic field, it must therefore interact with all the rest of the world. All of which is covered in electrons. Your skin holds together because of electron shell bonds. Speakers and air move in waves because of electrons. Its kind of arbitrary whether we call one of these acoustic and the other vibration, or the other way around, or lump them together. The point is the only way to know is to try, and that means listening and evaluating. Mahgister seems to have done an awful lot of listening and evaluating. He’s actually tried a lot of this stuff others totally dismiss. I wouldn’t be too quick to disregard what he’s saying just because the language or concepts are unfamiliar and hard to follow. |
I made a thread about my simple homemade experiments... It is easy to find.... :) Thanks for your offer for another system free of charge.... I think it is simple to understand that any part of an audio system vibrate and produce internal resonance... Any component at any price... It is also simple to verify that ANY electrical grid in any house create a too high level of noise... It is simple also to verify the impactful change that any materials can produce in a room acoustically... Calling them " embeddings" is a simple way to resume the 3 dimensions in a single concept or word... My best regards to you.....I will stay silent for the rest of this thread....I hate to annoy people.... |
mahgister3,548 posts10-15-2020 6:21amNot only we dont have a definition of a what a "tweak" is, but it seems that we dont even have a clue about a simple fact: <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The facts are mahgister, YOUR ideas are based on a "philosophy, or ideology", that YOU have developed over the last two years or so. I think with ALL the information you have provided, I have yet to read a single thing you’ve actually done, beginning to end, and how and what materials you used to do it.. I really don’t LIKE your embedding ideas, because you won’t explain it. Plane and simple as that. You sir are learning... I admire your tenacity, but "Audiofiling" has no "isums" in it... You have WAY to much "ICING" and not near enough "CAKE" I suggest before you go spouting how your 500.00 system is what it is because of "embeddings", your own private way of describing things that have been described for over 100 years by others, in other TERMS. YOU learn what a "TWEAK" is, not me, or most of the others... "A Tweak" is ANYTHING other than equipment or cabling. It can also be a "WAY" of doing things. BTW a room is optional, where you place your equipment, is ALL "Tweak" I say you have a NICE 500.00 dollar system.. When it all boils down to the last word.. BETTER EQUIPMENT, AND "How it’s used" is the only answer to better Sound Quality. "Tweaks" are icing on the cake, NOT "Embeddings’, what ever that is.. Respectfully, I really don’t need a philosophy lesson, from a "2 year old audiophiler", with a whole new way of doing things... It’s called "Tweaks" If your nice, I’ll send you another 500.00 worth of equipment.. You keep saying how you have no money. I’ll pitch in.. What do ya need? I’ll pay the postage too.. What do you want? Kinda like Bruce Lee's book, that no one could understand, BUT HIM... Regards... |
If you dont have the concept of "electricity" how can you explain and perceive adequately the spontaneous dead frog legs movement? It this intellectualism? If so i apologize and will let the thread rest.... :) Audio is not only and mainly about "tastes" there exist some simple facts and concepts...."tweaks" are not a matter of taste.... And the demarcation between what makes a system work and what improve it is NOT a clear line.... My E... concept adress elementarily what it is necessary to do for an audio system to work adequately at his utmost potential... |
@djones51 -- Sure, just voicing opinions -- or rather, "facts," namely, facts about what did or didn’t make a difference for you, in your system, with your preferences, etc. The more clearly we describe the experiments we conducted, the more others can try them to see what they think. @mahgister. Surely, from what is above, the term "tweak" has been adequately delimited. But, since you’re not clear yet:
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Not only we dont have a definition of what a "tweak" is, but it seems that we dont even have a clue about a simple fact: how can anyone could be able to perceive some change and qualify it positive or negative change, with an audio system that is not mechanically controlled for resonance/vibrations, that is located in a house where the noise floor is high like most houses, and where the acoustic controls of the room is inexistant? I will not even speak about regular uneducated ears who accept to live with such an audio system , i dont have any other word: a badly E.... system.....People then succumbs to temptation of a costly upgrade for solution to their deficient E....Or they buy a ready made costly "tweaks", nevermind the word definition.... I cannot use the word E....in this thread, the reader must read my past posts to guess it.... :) A philosophical simple point: when we dont have an adequate CONCEPT for a reality or for a phenomenon, we cannot adequately PERCEIVE it... This is epistemology for children..... :) A "tweak" is a ready made identical solution product for all audio system, room, and house .... A control device for one of the 3 E... is a specific partial solution inscribed in a set of step by step listening experiments .... Calling my devices homemade controls "tweaks" is simply confuse an object with a concept and a method.... Is it not clear? |
So this is not a thread about tweaks, but a thread about perceived value. It's only a tweak if it costs more than the person opining wants to spend. Interesting thought. So to me, maybe nothing in my system is a tweak, but to someone else everything in my system (turntable, DAC, even speakers) could be a tweak. |
For example, a speaker cable is not a tweak. A fancy speaker cable is. Etc. A DAC is not a tweak in a digital system. A fancy DAC is. Same with amps, streamers etc.. that’s what I meant when I said once it’s beyond audible it’s jewelry. There's nothing wrong with jewelry or tweaks. I thought we were just voicing opinions. |
@djones51 As I'm intending it for the purposes of conversation, a "tweak" is something supplemental to the system, something which is not necessary to make it work. For example, a speaker cable is not a tweak. A fancy speaker cable is. Etc. An external DAC -- I see how that could be a grey area, if there's already another one in the system. So, for example, when I added an external DAC and bypassed the cheap DAC in my cheap CD player, and it made a big difference (that I could hear), that's an example of a "tweak that works." I just purchased some good stands for my speakers. They are made of solid steel, very rugged and are replacing some cheap MDF stands my wife picked up at a Good Will for $10. Does this tweak make a difference? Well, visually, they're much more attractive, so in that sense, "yes." Do they make a sonic difference? I have to spend time listening back and forth to decide. |
Almost all tweaks are snake oil and make no difference plus or minus. Two that really work are room treatment, when applied effectively. Dedicated rectangular listening room is much better but don't go too far towards anechoic just because you can. I dreamt of one thru 40 years and four homes and got to build 4 years ago. Immediately obvious black silence behind the music. Really big deal, but I know not everyone has the space and there are usually...'issues'. And mass loading particularly under turntables but also phono amps, pre-amps, power supplies. Cutting vibration is important to stylus in groove and electronic components. My set-up stands on thick marble and stone racking, all standing on a 300kg marble slab locked to by pointed cones to the concrete ground slab in the basement. Effectively infinite mass loading incorporating the mass of the Earth. |
