Tweaks - An Honest Discussion
I know there is a lot of talk about performance tweaks in this forum and the value that can be realized. I've started this thread because it seems that folks tend towards believing they are either the silver bullet to sonic bliss or conversely simply snake oil. I believe tweaks are somewhere in between and in most cases, worth about what you pay for (crazy I know).
I'm open minded to tweaks and have employed many in my system over the years including isolation, fuses, footers, HFTs, cabling, cable risers and attempts at reducing RFI (among others). While I believe that many of these tweaks incrementally helped me get better performance out of my system I never for a second found any tweak make a transformational difference the way that a significantly upgraded piece of gear brings to the table. I think many of us have been quite happy with our systems over the years but that doesn't mean implementing a tweak can possibly compete with the benefit of replacing a piece of gear that is well matched to elevate your system. Just because you're happy with your setup doesn't mean a major gear change can't really elevate the experience - surely well beyond any form of tweakery.
As an example, I've been very happy with a Hana ML cart and how it's performed in my system. I recently decided to acquire a Lyra Kleos cart - for a $2K increase the change has been transformational in terms of dynamic range and ability to convey detail and imaging. There has never been a dot I've placed on a wall, carbon platform placed under gear, or RFI shielding device I've ever used that could possibly come close to this equipment upgrade. Same goes for upgrades to my system over the years in terms of amps, pre's, and speakers. For anyone to suggest that through tweaks alone you can elevate your system to a level that only gear changes can achieve simply falls flat in my experience. Some may be shocked to hear that most of the time a $200 tweak truly only gets you about $200 worth of improvement (if any) and not the equivalent of a $5000 gear upgrade. I know there is a certain allure that by simply being smart and applying elbow grease that we can extend the sonic limits of our system well beyond it's design, parts, and capabilities but that's just not true IMO.
What's your experience been?
I'm open minded to tweaks and have employed many in my system over the years including isolation, fuses, footers, HFTs, cabling, cable risers and attempts at reducing RFI (among others). While I believe that many of these tweaks incrementally helped me get better performance out of my system I never for a second found any tweak make a transformational difference the way that a significantly upgraded piece of gear brings to the table. I think many of us have been quite happy with our systems over the years but that doesn't mean implementing a tweak can possibly compete with the benefit of replacing a piece of gear that is well matched to elevate your system. Just because you're happy with your setup doesn't mean a major gear change can't really elevate the experience - surely well beyond any form of tweakery.
As an example, I've been very happy with a Hana ML cart and how it's performed in my system. I recently decided to acquire a Lyra Kleos cart - for a $2K increase the change has been transformational in terms of dynamic range and ability to convey detail and imaging. There has never been a dot I've placed on a wall, carbon platform placed under gear, or RFI shielding device I've ever used that could possibly come close to this equipment upgrade. Same goes for upgrades to my system over the years in terms of amps, pre's, and speakers. For anyone to suggest that through tweaks alone you can elevate your system to a level that only gear changes can achieve simply falls flat in my experience. Some may be shocked to hear that most of the time a $200 tweak truly only gets you about $200 worth of improvement (if any) and not the equivalent of a $5000 gear upgrade. I know there is a certain allure that by simply being smart and applying elbow grease that we can extend the sonic limits of our system well beyond it's design, parts, and capabilities but that's just not true IMO.
What's your experience been?
108 responses Add your response
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Millercarbon and Geoffkait, or anybody else, if the vibration issue has been effectively dealt with and this was your system, outside of improving interconnects and speaker cables, or room acoustical treatments, what tweaks would you next be looking at. This would be for a simple system consisting of a turntable, cd player, integrated amp, two speakers and a power conditioner. I was thinking maybe next making the 20 amp circuit serving the stereo system a dedicated circuit or would you have another priority? Hope this isn’t too general a question. Mike |
30 years ago, to find really effective vibration control, it would indeed have to be beginners luck. Black Diamond Racing pretty much had the market to themselves. Now though there are plenty to choose from, probably even some that are better. Taking time to read and compare the reviews skews the odds heavily in your favor. |
Uncola, I’m with you on the IsoAcoustic antivibration product line. I tried at Twoleftears suggestion some well reviewed IsoAcoustic Orea antvibration feet under my Luxman 507uX Mk2 amp, Shunyate Denali power conditioner, and Marantz Ruby CD/SACD player, not expecting much at all. I was actually anticipating disappointment, and then being mad about having wasted $500 of my anticipated Economic Stimulus payment on a tweak. Boy was I surprised at how much difference they made in system performance, and even more so, that they performed exactly as their reviewers said they would. I was skeptical of the many positive reviews to say the least. I am so impressed I’m going to try their similar Gaia line under my Magico A3’s and my VPI Classic 2 turntable. They are not inexpensive, except relatively to products like the Stillpoints and Townsend Sonic platforms which also get good reviews. So I wouldn’t spend more cash on getting more of them unless their performance was overtly obvious and made a clear and significant difference to overall system performance. I’m way too cheap for that. It’s fun re-listening to CD’s and records now just to appreciate the clarity, tighter bass, and other improvements in sound quality. Being a cynic, I never figured these hockey puck looking things or any vibration control for that matter, could make such a substantial difference in sound quality, but I was completely wrong and am glad I took a chance on these. So now I’ve spent the entire Economic Stimulus check on vibration control, before it even arrived. Makes being home-bound a bit more tolerable at least. As for the rest of the many tweaks discussed above or elsewhere I’ve no way of knowing their value or efficacy. But for my system these IsoAcoustic Oreas were worth every penny and I can’t wait to receive the Gaias to try out. I guess I've had some beginners luck with my first ever tweak. Mike |
Tweaks effectiveness highly variable. I've found the most transformative to be room treatments, speaker positioning, vibration control, boutique capacitors, resistors, voltage regulators, internal wiring, diy power cords and interconnects. It is the accumulation of tweaks in a system that makes them more than incremental improvements. Take any single one out, blah, take them all out in a single move, I'd be amazed. |
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No money involved I had my turntable on maple with on some rubbers ball sorbanith kind, and 200 lbs underneath, marble tables ..I removed everything underneath it to make room , put turntable on same maple with four brass cones underneath ,on my 20 year old audio rack, same cart same turntable the difference was night and day, more focus better image , more detail , but soundstage height smaller and width , I guess I tweaked it without even knowing. |
Tweak for the ages. Buy a pack of 12” long Black cable ties at Home Despot. Attach one Black cable tie to the bottom end of all drain spouts on the building. These are the long water spouts that extend from the roof to the ground. If the drain spouts are extra wide use two cable ties joined together. |
wow hot topic,, everyone has some experiences/ideas/opinions/philosophy imput. 1) employed new M SGO caps on my Cayin cd17 mark1 player, cost of,,ohh 400, worth it? i'd say the sonic gains may some difference,,thats all i wanted, some fq pop. not much, but enough to make me hear more of the classical orchestra. aded kt150's over the kt88's, worth it? again, some gain, worth the $800 mod?,, yeah, miniscle gain over the 88's. but thats all i hoped for anyway. where my gaisn really poped were getting rid of all 12AU7's in my system and using the incredible E80 tube, Now here is my bigges mod of all. HUGE sound stage gain/sonic pop. Will mod all caps in preamp and amp to Mundorf SGO EVO. cabels. nota believer,, a cabel is a cabel,, Rat Shark's $5 is equal to snakeoil's $$$$$$$$ interconnects. Cones??? not a believer Tele 12AX7's, yeah now thats a solid bonifide mod gain. Speaker placement? Never beena believer, never will. after some 40+ yrs around this business, i pretty much know whats snakeoil and not. Just auditioned a new preamp,,,,incredible gorgeous design,,but sadly, not for my system/my preference in my Jadis Defy system, i returned it. will take some time to read through the posts also will upgrade my caps in my near 20 yr old speakers to Mundorf caps. Mods are for real, just know which is for real, which are snakeoil. and don't expect night/day out some mods. All we can hope for are ~~~ Miniscle~~ gains. Take a paper $2 cap, vs Mundorf's Silver Gold EVO non oil at $50 . a tech guy puts both on his testing equipment,,and can not see any great dif's. But in a real live operating amp, here is where that tiny gain is noted in the sonics. Tell you what, i have locked in memory exactly how my preamp sounds pre cap mod,,,after 8 new M caps are installed i will report back on my topic. Mundorf caps. I want to get to the bottom of this cap mod. Caps are $300, tech fees? So in a time like this(post CV19 epoch), we have to count our audio budget carefully. Was the mod ~~well worth it~~ is the K$ Q. |
discopantshttps://youtu.be/3z-egjDoR1Q This is Peter Lyngdorf he’s going on about a hifi system that is pitched at the very high end of the market but 17:45 he rambles on about exactly how sensitive our hearing is and he makes some powerful analogies.Thanks very interesting video and what he said(the numbers) about seeing and hearing is very illuminating.... Trust in our own hears is the ONLY way to enjoy music, not so much and mostly because they are truthful, but because our ears are the only master of our own musical experience....Even if we are older... :) |
https://youtu.be/3z-egjDoR1Q This is Peter Lyngdorf he's going on about a hifi system that is pitched at the very high end of the market but 17:45 he rambles on about exactly how sensitive our hearing is and he makes some powerful analogies. |
Thanks discopants And thanks djones51 My philosophy is simple: 1-Hi-FI is lower cost than anything you had ever dream of... 2- Buy only what is rightly chosen and after that think and read and buy no more... 3-Owning a very good Audio System, like most of us own one already, is only the beginnings of fun: how to embed it is the goal....Using cheap materials and the ears... If someone mock your ears with a measure apparatus, answer him that only you know how your audio System really sound in your room with all these numerous, unmeasurable simultaneous, parameters at play in the 4 embeddings in place... Anyway: «Human hearing beats the Fourier uncertainty principle» by Lisa Zyga , Phys.org In this article(2003) it was explained why the human ears is all we need, to embed our own audio system and what are some of his capabilities... Trust yourself and music will sound beautiful for your ears .... https://phys.org/news/2013-02-human-fourier-uncertainty-principle.html «For the first time, physicists have found that humans can discriminate a sound's frequency (related to a note's pitch) and timing (whether a note comes before or after another note) more than 10 times better than the limit imposed by the Fourier uncertainty principle. Not surprisingly, some of the subjects with the best listening precision were musicians, but even non-musicians could exceed the uncertainty limit. The results rule out the majority of auditory processing brain algorithms that have been proposed, since only a few models can match this impressive human performance. » This is all that we must know... |
@newbee What also has always struck me as conspicuous is the great lengths that some folks go to promote tweaks, often as the primary source of their sonic joy. Fine tuning your system and room is one thing, but dedicating thread after thread solely to the power of the tweak leaves me dubious of the underlying motivation. |
Funny thing about my experience with 'tweaks' (which I consider to be outboard stuff which are add on's, not primary equipment such as cables, interconnects, etc). I could most always hear a change but, as time passed, not so much. I eventually forgot to reinstall them when changing stuff and am presently using only one. A Loki tone control to help tune some upper mid range glare in CD's, etc. Sort of turned into an agnostic about this issue. Three-easy-payments, fundamentally I agree with you, and, IMHO, much of the 'tweaks' controversy is driven by folks with financial interest. |
danvignau I have a pal who spent at least hundreds on turntable tweaks. His TT and cartridge are crap, IMHO. In fact, the very prominent piano intro at the beginning of Zappa’s Uncle Remus, nearly disappears on his system. No tweak helps. DOH! >>>>It kind of helps if you know what you’re doing. |
Instead of speaking of "tweaks" like some improvised, trying, costly, improving miracles incomprehensible solutions; I speak about 3 embeddings( or 4 the acoustical problem being double side) for an audio system, and of the way to systematically, experiments with ears, a continuous improving increased with only low cost materials and homemade solutions... Never mind any tweaks.... No tweak by itself will resolve the embeddings problem... How do we insert an audio system in an electrical grid ? How do we transform the acoustics of the room where it will be playing ?How do we controls the internal resonance of each piece of gear and mechanical vibrations of the street, the house, the desk etc. where this system is? ALL this 3 problems are so connected to one another that NO isolate tweak will do the job alone and be optimal by itself alone... The implementation must be step by step, and the ears must use each tweak against other tweak, in an improving and compensatory process where each solution complement another, for an optimal solution in the 3 dimensions (mechanical, electrical, acoustical)... And you know this cost almost NOTHING.... I bought anything except cheap materials... This is the basic audiophile problem....The embeddings dimension... Forget costly tweaks …. Remember that most of the times your system is already very good but badly embedded... This is my experience... The S. Q. /price ratio is not linear.... The embeddings solutions made the difference and narrow the gap between low cost system and costly one most of the times....Engineering design, if we stay and compare products on the same rung of the scale, cannot give an improvement comparable in each of the 3 rungs scale, low Hi-Fi, mid, and high costs, to a rightfully embed audio system compared to one that is not in the same rung.... Engineering so good be it cannot make miracles and replace the 3 optimal embeddings audible qualitative powerful effect.... In the future with A.I. probably.... But we are not there.... |
Recently, I took many components both ss and tube, for repair, checking, cleaning to Pyramid audio in Austin. To date, I have picked up 6 pieces; all of which, sound better than I remember prior to repairing. I wonder if what we are listening to, may be in need of a simple repair and thus, may not sound optimal. Once replaced, the difference is "night and day ". I've been trying different tweaks lately, with both positive and NO effect. Keep trying, you never know. Best, Jose |
If YOU like it (tweaks that is), then I couldn't be happier for you, whoever you may be. I have one personal tweak that makes my system sound better "to me". Dusting. I hate dust accumulation on the surfaces of my stereo components. And for those hard to reach places, I frequently nick up the back of my hands trying to extend the cloth far enough to get to those difficult spots. But afterwards the improvements are remarkable. This most likely stems from my mother telling me from an early age that she wanted the floors of the entire house dusted before dinner. Since dinner was usually an outstanding experience, I would set aside my annoyance at being asked this all the time. Only AFTER dinner, it was THEN time to wash and dry the dishes as well. Of course all these awful chores did help towards getting my allowance- which came in handy when buying vinyl at the (many) record stores in town. Then I had to (naturally) dust off the records as well... |
I’m not hot dogging you, 🌭I tried the old Peter Belt tweak of aligning all Phillips head and flat head screws on wall outlet plates, light switch plates, door hinges, door knobs, cabinet hinges in the house. The flat head screws should be perpendicular to the Earth and for Phillips head screws like a cross with N-S perpendicular to the Earth. The perfect tweak for a lockdown? What else ya gonna do? |
The most audibly meaningful "tweak" I have done was adding a power cord to my integrated. I think it was around $600. Far from outrageous. I have added numerous components over the years, each of which provided improvement, but nothing as distinct as that mid-level power cord. So yes, I believe in the right setting you do not need to make a massive investment to hear vast improvements. |
For me the most rewarding process is that of system "tuning". The tuning process often involves applying tweaks strategically to tune your system to your perception of excellence. This is the step where you really have to think creatively and find that sweet spot where it just sounds right to you. Once you get there, turn out the lights and allow the music to wash over you, immersed in the beauty of it all! |
For those without money.... Use ebony block ( aliexpress) with Herkimer diamond..... :) This will replicate Shun Mook...At lower cost.... Because Geoffkait is right.... :) Moh of real diamond is 10 Moh of H.D. is 7.5 Topaz will perhaps fare better than HD. a little harder and cheap... But I bet that will do a great job.... |
hifiman5 Of course all systems are different from one another but...the BDR boat sailed a l o n g time ago. Easily my biggest regret tweaking was all the $ I spent on an assortment of BDR #3 and #4 cones and pucks. I didn’t want to give up on them but my ears insisted! I have found other uses for them around the house although some are just residing in the listening room closet taking up precious space. The #3 BDR products make the music slower sounding and thick in the midbass. >>>>>I’ll drink to that! 🍺 Any materials science type like your humble scribe will tell you and any yutz with ears will too, cones that are made of soft materials don’t sound as good as cones made of very hard materials. So, avoid carbon fiber, copper, aluminum, brass as they rank quite low on the Mohs scale of hardness. Go for very hard materials like ceramics, hardened steel and diamonds if you can afford ‘em. You know, like Shun Mook Diamond Resonators. |
Of course all systems are different from one another but...the BDR boat sailed a l o n g time ago. Easily my biggest regret tweaking was all the $ I spent on an assortment of BDR #3 and #4 cones and pucks. I didn't want to give up on them but my ears insisted! I have found other uses for them around the house although some are just residing in the listening room closet taking up precious space. The #3 BDR products make the music slower sounding and thick in the midbass. The #4's are better but impart an unacceptable brightness in the upper midrange. The sound takes on an amusical assertiveness that shortens listening sessions. So what to use to tune your components? Herbie's Tenderfeet!! That's it. Some may shy away due to their reasonable cost. "They can't be any good, they don't cost enough". I use other Herbie products to decouple my speakers and subwoofers from the room. Once you do that, there is no going back! I have never purchased a product from Herbie's Audio Lab that has disappointed me. If you're not sure about using Herbie's products just email them. They have always been very good about responding with helpful advice. Happy Listening! |
jpwarren58....filing 'it' away only makes it eat away @ the back of your brain....;) 'Neurosi' are like that....and our present (sur)reality is going to generate a lot of them....'nice, 'normal' paranoias' become the norm, audio varieties being the least of them..... But then again, neurosis and mania's have a lot in common..... (I'm not a doctor, but I can look, act, and talk like one....) "Here....(hands him three fingers of J. Daniels')....Drink this, go to bed, and don't call me in the morning. I like to sleep in, and recover from this myself..." |
millercarbon ... Correcto Mundo ... The granite slabs that I tried under the speakers were 12" x 12" and were designed to go under electronic equipment. They have a constrained layer of dampening material between two layers. If you look at my system pictures, you’ll see larger versions under the electronics. They work like crazy under the electronics, but the smaller ones really sucked under the speakers. After trying the granite platforms under the speakers, and not liking the results, I placed them on top of the speakers where they fit perfectly. The added weight was akin to adding mass to the speakers, and that brought about a nice gain in SQ from placing them there. The Mapleshade maple platforms as described above were much larger and thicker than the granite platforms. The Mapleshade platforms, plus the ten-pack of SR HFT’s placed around the room as directed, combined with the granite platforms on top of the speakers, gave the system outstanding bass and improved everything dramatically from top to bottom. Frank |
f1status1- Next on the list is vibration control. I’m on a suspended wood floor and it vibrates. I can feel my components vibrate and I’d like to address this area next. Would you suggest plinths under the speakers? Feet or cone brand to try? So what is the status of F1, f1? What a shame we have a potential GOAT in Hamilton and thanks to Wuhan can't watch him race. Vibration control is huge. Its the first big tweak I discovered and learned to understand. https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367 You're smart to call it vibration control. Because there is a whole range of vibrations, across frequencies, amplitudes, and sources. Controlling large amplitude low to moderate frequency floor vibrations, micro-level high frequency solid state and tube vibrations, and turntable vibrations which is a whole category to itself, these all require similar yet different approaches. You can see them all in my system. One very important point to keep in mind when studying vibration control is even things like shape and size make a difference. Like for example Frank noted granite gave him improved mids and highs but nonexistent bass. I'd be willing to bet it wasn't as large a slabs as I use. Because the bass in my system is awesome, and improved when these were added. But the one under the turntable is sitting on a 4" thick slab of concrete with over an inch of sand in between and all as part of a rack that weighs in somewhere north of 700 lbs. The one under the Melody amp is sitting on BDR Cones, no sand bed. Both these granite slabs have a nasty ring that needs to be controlled. It could be controlled somewhat with shape. But it gets expensive. Mahgister has the right approach: experiment, listen, tweak, listen, repeat. This is the dirty secret of manufacturers. DIY, like mahgister, which is also what I did. BDR Cones have been around a long time. Probably others have come along in the 30 years since BDR came out, probably even some that are as good or maybe even better. I haven't seen much evidence of that but you never know. The best indication I think, besides my recommendation, is how infrequently they come up for sale- and how fast and how much they sell for when they do. Pretty amazing for a tweak where the inventor died more than a dozen years ago and nowhere but Music Direct carrying it. Other than that about the only downside is its every mention triggers a post from Capt Irrelevant. Then again at 21,215 and counting you could probably say that about everything. |