Turntable platforms

For cheap DIY dudes here’s one for the ages. Three Super Balls - the 3/4” size, not the bigger 1” balls - like they have in vending machines - and three Snapple bottle caps. The Super balls are great because they don’t store energy, they release it rapidly. That’s why they bounce so high.

 I use Minus K under my turntable and tube amps, they work well, no pumps and hoses to deal with, just science. I think they have a new model which is thinner in profile, yet does as good a job as the taller units such as I have. My Turntable is a Technics SP-10MK2 with an OMA plinth, it weights 200 pounds.

 I live in a wood framed building, wood suspended floor, it was impossible to play records before the Minus K because of the feedback issues. I tried granite + sandbox to no avail.

Same thing with components as with turntable
4 curtain rings 
4 racquet balls 
place feet of components centered on the racquet balls 
vibration gone
done
or you can place granite in the racquet balls then your components
an engineer shows me this 30 years ago

...a second shout-out for bone dry sand box.  In a jouncy room in a rental situation years back, full blown SOTA Star Sapphire rig (see posts) after the usual attempts..bladders, footers etc...a dead added plinth upon the sand, carefully leveled under the SOTA rig solved things.  A precise Marigo tuning dot application further addressed air borne concerns.  Hardware stores are open, good men and women...have at it! 
So, while reading in bed, my wife says, "Your clock is faster than mine."  ..slight pause..  "Yay!!!"        True story...we need our sports back.  More Peace and Patience.  Pin

Granite has the inherent advantage of mass and stiffness and sounds great if it is isolated on springs as the top plate of the iso device. Granite cannot ring if it is isolated since the granite cannot be excited by floorborne vibration due to filter effect of mass and springs. airborne vibration cannot excite the granite either since any vibration on the top plate is dissipated by the isolation system. Granite or bluestone of sufficient thickness 2-3” can sound excellent if simply placed in very hard cones. If you’re worried that granite rings don’t strike it while listening to music. There’s not enough energy at it’s Fn to make it ring. The inherent stiffness of granite and bluestone slabs makes them very resistant to bending forces comprised in seismic vibration. 🔄

@willy-t
Except granite sounds poor. I tried it. Waste of $150. 

I can totally vouch for the Stacore Advanced platform. 95kg of slate mass loading/pneumatics/constrained layer damping/ball bearings isolation.
Pricey, but has had a uniquely positive influence in my system.
I've also added a 55kg solid slate stand under the Stacore.

Apparently we can add racquetballs to the list of things that don't bounce. Right next to the springs that don't bounce. Right, CI?

It's one thing to curtail vibrations, yet the most important issue is how these vibrations dissipate. There lies the problem.

@willy-t,

Ok, how are you effectively dealing with component vibrations and acoustic rumblings?

When I recommended Minus K, remember I wrote, "a custom Minus K".

Here is everyone’s solution
4 curtain rings 
4 racquetballs 
2x3 slab of granite counter top 
1)place rings down in a square
2) put balls in rings
3) place granite slab on racquetballs 
Done! No vibration

Minus K is center of gravity sensitive.  If your component is heavier on one end, it cannot be rested/centered on top of the minus K platform.  To do so, you might have to use a ballast on the lighter side.  Also, the component cannot be slid while resting on the minus K, as this can damage the internals.  Either way, it is great.

 I use HRS platforms under the mono-blocks.

Good luck,
Jose

Let’s talk about the Minus K for a second. Great performance, under 1.0 Hz in all of almost all directions of motion. I read you can drop a penny on the top plate of the Minus K and it will go into slow undulation, rocking and rolling and moving up and down. That’s what isolation, very good isolation looks like, small forces put it into motion with ease. The best isolation is when there is the greatest ease of motion. That’s also why it’s critical to square away all power cords, etc. that might constrain the motion of iso system for any spring type iso stand.

My TT (Takai Final Audio VTT-1) rests flat on a Critical Mass System shelve with AT-616 footers under the shelve.  The AT-616 footers also level the shelve and thus the TT.  My set up works very well and I highly recommend.

I use a minus K under my Esoteric CD player to great effect.  The minus K is VERY sensitive to weight distribution and MUCH care is required while setting it up. 

Best,
Jose

That would certainly explain why my simple undamped springs sound better than Townshend Iso Pods. Any restraint of the micro motion of the springs, e.g., the rubber fabric or the force of air, interferes with the effectiveness of isolation. As I said damping degrades the sound. 

I recently demoed my unsuspended, 70 lb turntable on an HRS S1 platform and really liked what it did.  Better clarity, bass extension and micro detail retrieval.  Just swapped it out for a vibraplane for similar good sonic result with a bonus of zero footfall transmission which makes me think it may be even more effective than the HRS shelf. System is on a suspended hardwood floor.

If you’re so smart why ask me? 

Undamped springs will ring. If the frequency's low enough it may not be a problem, but the ideal is to damp critically. 

I can't see any downside if damping is an option. It may be impractical to damp a pendulum. 

6 directions? Don't you mean 3?

How did you achieve 0.5hz vertical? 

The springs should not be damped. Damping hurts isolation effectiveness and it’s audible. You just place the springs under the component. Voila! 🤗 My springs provide vertical isolation, some rotational isolation. LIGO uses many types of isolation including dual-layer heavy mass-on-spring systems and sapphire thread suspension. LIGO pendulums provide isolation in many directions. My first design was a pendulum with very heavy suspended mass that isolated in 6 directions with Fr as low as 0.5 Hz (vertical 🔝).

@geoffkait Springs, yes - but what design and how to damp?

Looks to me like Ligo is using coupled pendulums. Do those provide vertical isolation? Looks like that comes from the cables, and the intermediate masses?

You could also consider a passive isolation platform such as those made by eg Thor Labs. These can be tuned to have around 0.5 Hz resonant frequency, and cost around $2,000+. 

They'd benefit from a solid floor but will still be sensitive to some degree to environmental ground noise, e.g. traffic. 

I've seen very good results with one of these, may take a bit of work to get it right, and whether it works better than a pendulum will depend on your situation. 

One word. Springs! Springs for lightweight things, springs for heavy things. Spring is the thing! LIGO the project to observe gravity waves uses passive spring systems so trust me, they’re good enough for audiophiles, too. 🤗 With simple springs you can easily achieve 2 Hz performance. 

@geoffkait 

So what are your solutions?

@mikelavigne 

Mike thanks for your comments and clarification. I followed your thread here as well as your comments on WBF. I can only imagine how great your system must sound with all of the resonance control work you have done.

Best regards,

Jim Perry

@geoffkait 

I always appreciate testimonials for products someone sold

I still have two more NOS boxes and using one set right now myself. 
This is the best feet on the market, not easy to find. If i will see them i will buy more, but only after the financial situation will be better. Right now i think i will have to sell some stuff , because in my country the government decided not to compensate for recommended isolation after nearly all business is closed down in my town and local currency crashed because of the oil war. Too bad for my hobby. 

allow me to clear up some confusion here.

first of all, not all active isolation (referred to as Herzan above) is created equal.

for further explanation i started a thread about active isolation including for turntables here;

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/active-isolation-what-can-it-do-for-music-reproduction

i have -5- Taiko Tana active systems in my system now.

for those too lazy to read that referenced thread, active devices only work when the gear has zero self noise. otherwise the active part will continually sense the self noise and try to attenuate it, which it can’t do and eventually it will burn itself out, as well as not sound very good. most turntables have self noise. zero self noise would be the exception.

the Minus K is not made by Herzan, but can be acquired through them. although it is very difficult to tune as it requires a balancing process. it’s a spring and floats and over-shoots like any passive.

the best all around passive device for turntables is the Stacore shelf. it uses three air bladders and has a solid slate top plate. that is the product most likely dependably right for turntables.

all this information and much more is in that thread.

i’m very serious about resonance control.

chakster
Try to find AT 616 pneumatic insulators and you’re done.
Under your turntable or under wooden desk
read more in my sold listing on UKAM

>>>>>I always appreciate testimonials for products someone sold. 🤗

Try to find AT 616 pneumatic insulators and you're done. 
Under your turntable or under wooden desk
read more in my sold listing on UKAM

I have owned quite a few exotic ($$$) iso devices over the years.


Geoffs springs are well worth trying. I have the under all my gear, including my Core Power 1800 power conditioner

and while you’re on his site, if you spin cds his New Dark Matter is amazing ~ $40


hth

No.....thank you!

You must be made out of money. $15,000? And those TS-150 stands only isolate one component. Ouch! Double ouch! I can isolate an entire system for about $150 - $200 with 2 Hz performance. Give me a break.

The Herzan is active and the Minus K is spring loaded. I use a vibraplane, because I did not like the motion of the minus K. The Herzan takes it to a different level which you need to hear. I would buy one if it was in my price range.

https://www.herzan.com/products/active-vibration-control/ts-series.html

https://www.minusk.com/

jperry, Is there a reason you apparently believe Herzan platforms are superior to Minus K platforms?  So far as I know, Herzan make Minus K, but other than that factoid, which could be erroneous, I'm curious.

If you don't mind saving some money and are handy, consider an old-fashioned sand-box.  They work!

If these links don’t work, do a search for the products I mentioned, fairly easy to find. The MontBlanc rack was updated to a newer version which has either a matt black or panzerholz look. Both look nice. I think overture audio has them in their web site. As far as Copulare, not sure who in the US is the distributor. I bought both while stationed in Germany so it was easier for me at the time. 

Www.copulare.de


https://clearaudio.de/de/accessories/racks.php

It must be an Audiogon thing as I have linked to these in other forums.,,,let’s see now. 

http://clear-audio.de/en/_archive/accessories.php

http://www.copulare.de/sial.html

It was messed up when I linked them, try it now. 

+1

“The only good vibration is one that’s dead.” - Shannon Dickson

Yes, I know what some of you are thinking, “but speakers are like musical instruments. They’re supposed to vibrate!”

Read list article was what got everyone thinking of isolation and still (I think) the gold standard.
https://www.stereophile.com/reference/52/index.html

I cannot get the links to work!

I got it while living in Canada for a couple of years.  I need a reliable US dealer.   

Not sure of budget and size requirements, I have the German company  Clearaudio MontBlanc which is no longer made, but it has been the last stand I will ever need for my Transrotor Apollon with three motors and two tonearms. The replacement looks nice and is available from several US retailers. 
http://https//clearaudio.de/en/_archive/accessories.php

Also, another one is the Copulare audio racks or tonebasen as known in Germany. I have the Aural and Sial series for components and amps. An audio buddy of mine had the top turntable stand called the Mozart, it is nice, but too much avant-garde for my tastes. http://http//www.copulare.de/sial.html

Did you get your Zet in the US? Is the dealer stocked with parts for Transrotor such as belts and spindle oil? Good luck. 

If you want to go all out get a Herzan. Otherwise Stacore, Vibraplane and minusK do a very good job.

millercarbon says,

Symposium and others pretend to do isolation. Really impossible, ultimately all anything can do is control vibration. Damp, tune. No such thing as isolation.

>>>>Are you channeling Michael Green again? You don’t even know what isolation is, do you?  Remember what the Little Train that Could says, “I think I can, I think I can...” Toot, toot! 🚂 

If you have a suitable mounting point such as a sturdy beam, hang it from the ceiling. 

The platform can be a thick, say 5cm plywood or butcher's block. Metal might also work.

This offers almost complete lateral isolation, and with a little tweak to the cables, vertical isolation. 

Conspicuously absent is the Townshend Audio Seismic Platform (or set of four Seismic Pods).

Another option if you can swing it would be custom Minus K.