Tube Preamp Recommendations?

@croatan128, your experience mirrors mine. A few months ago I put in new 1.0uF Vcap ODAM output caps and it took the pre to another level, which I didn’t think was possible. More detail and more intimacy—like I’m sharing space with the vocals and stringed instruments I’m hearing right in my living room. I coupled the pre with Don’s KT-88 amp and the pair are just divine. Other parts of my system have since come and gone, but I have no intention of parting with Don’s pre and amp. Enjoy!

I’d like to post my real world experience with 2 different hand made low production number preamps at 2 very different price points. My aim is to not disparage any maker and to just share my personal experience. Per usual, your results may vary.

Maple Tree Audio Line 2CRM ($800): Upon unboxing, my initial impressions of the preamp and power supply were "wow this thing feels and looks like an old old Heath kit high school project". The cabinets were extremely light and the front and back printing were applied stickers. Cheap plastic remote. The end piece wood was finished unevenly but looked nice. I reminded myself of all the nice reviews online and plugged it in to only find there was cross-talk between input channels. Boxed up, sent back for repair and received same unit back fairly quickly without detailed explanation of what was fixed. After listening to the preamp for about 100 hours, I started looking for another preamp. I found the the soundstage to be very thin and could never solve a very annoying low level but omnipresent 60 Hz amp that only occurred with preamp in play. My experience in this regard is not unique- there are other posts online about this 60 cycle hum that cant be fixed. My system lacked a low end presence and the music seemed very confined to my speakers. I started to wonder if I needed new speakers or a new amp. Decided to change preamp out. I wouldn’t feel comfortable selling this unit in good faith to anyone as my experience simply did not match the many very positive online reviews.


Don Sachs Custom 6SN7 line stage ($2700) : Upon unboxing my initial impression was "wow heavy for a preamp and the walnut cabinet and printed plates were exceptional. The custom remote is a nice chunk of metal". After set up, I put on my favorite D’Angelo vinyl, summoned my wife to the room and the music started playing. Absolutely the blackest of black black black black background. Zero . Outer space silent. Open air. Massive wide and deep soundstage. In fact my non audiophile wife even pointed exactly to where the singer was standing and I could see she finally "got it". My speakers disappeared. Over the next hours the preamp broke in as expected and I am hearing subtleties in tracks that I have listed to hundreds of times that have never been exposed. No more thoughts of replacing my speakers. I really cant find anything to knit pick. No shortcomings. Lives up to the reviews and exceeds my expectations of what a preamp can do to your system.

I’m well aware I am comparing $800 vs $ 2700. But in reality, there is no comparison.

@robert1234

For 12AX7’s, my favourite tubes are:

1. Shuguang Custom 12AX7-LS $120/pr
- new production tubes
2. Mazda Chrome Plate 12AX7 $320/pr
- NOS tubes
3. Psvane 12AX7-TII $100/pr
- new production tubes

I am 100% with Atmashphere on this one. A 6SN7 pre amp can be very detailed it depends on what amp its  going into, the quality of the pre and of course the 6SN7s themselves which come in many flavors.

There is a reason that 6SN7s are known for 'big tone' and most other low signal triodes like 6922s, 12AX7s and the like are not. In a nutshell you have to get the very best of the miniature signal tubes in order to compete with just the average octal based triode. That's why 6SN7s are still around :)

I'd love to hear either Schiit tube pre amp.  Also check out Linear Tube Audio and the MZ2.  

I am 100% with Atmashphere on this one.  A 6SN7 pre amp can be very detailed it depends on what amp its  going into, the quality of the pre and of course the 6SN7s themselves which come in many flavors.

Hi, 

I am using a MW LS100 with phono and the sound can definitely be tailored to your taste by swapping the 6SN7 tubes and/or the phono tubes as well. I will also be selling this pre shortly, so if you are interested, let me know. I have the Russian Melz 1578's installed and they are much better in every way than the stock EH 6SN7 tubes.

I have the Don Sachs Model 1 6SN7-based preamp. It replaced a Doge 8.

I would have to say it is a very clean sounding preamp. I'm running it into a pair of (heavily modified) Golden Tube Audio SE-40 special edition monoblocks.

Does this mean these provide less detail at the expense of more midrange bloom?

No. Detail is not sacrificed on account of the 6SN7! At any rate I would expect almost any 6SN7-based preamp to be more detailed than an old ARC SP-6.

Does this mean these provide less detail at the expense of more midrange bloom?

I experience no less detail with mine, but it depends on the tubes you install. For mine, one set of 6SN7s bloomed the midrange and fuzzed up the detail, while another manufacturer's did not. I kept the latter installed for a clean, clear, solid sound. I am not missing any detail in mine.

Thanks, hifiman5.  That went fast.  I'm leaning towards a 6SN7 preamp, but maybe I'll check out a CJ.  Detail and "air" has improved with an AC line conditioner.  Oh, and correcting the inverted speaker polarity once I disconnected the AI preamp. :)  The AR SP6B now sounds quite a bit closer to how mechans described.

Robert1234  Here is a link to a conrad johnson PV-10AL line stage that should deliver that classic warmth and smoothness that typifies classic cj sound.  Good Luck

http://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649363139-conrad-johnson-pv10al-tube-stereo-line-preamp-very-nice-one-owner-with-new-tube-set/

Robert1234 - Another options would be a Tube Preamp built by Tom Tutay.  Tom builds the preamps to order so it would take a couple of months to build and he can build it to your needs, but would be well worth it.  I have had one of his preamps for about 6 years and it has excellent imaging and sound qualities.  He uses a pair of 12SN7 tubes in his design which are the 12 volt versions of the 6SN7 tube and cost less. 
mds

I've been a big fan of the 6SN7- that tube is in all of our products.

Mechans, thanks for your post.  It's really interesting b/c your take on the SP6B is very consistent with what I've read in other places.  In fact, the drivers in the ProAcs developed torn surrounds a few months ago, so I'm about to send them to Millersound for new surrounds.  Perhaps that is influencing things; the dried out surrounds certainly killed the bass, but I didn't think that would affect imaging and the high end.  I'm going to hold off on further preamp tweaks until I get the speakers fixed.  

Joey54, the PSE is gone--a friend took it.

Giri, yes, i'm very interested in a 6SN7 preamp.  I'm very interested in a Cary or perhaps a Modwright that uses that tube. Thanks for the tip.

If you are looking for 6sn7 tubed preamp, Cary Audio has theirs on sale at Cary Audio Direct. I oredered one yesterday but has not arrived yet.
Giri

I owned the PSE HL-1 for many years and could not find a preamp I liked better until I discovered the Aesthetic Calypso. Unfortunately, even used it's over your budget. You might want to touch base with John Rutan at Audio Connection to see what he thinks. John sold me both the PSE and the Calypso and also carries ARC and AI. He might have some good suggestions for you. By the way, have you looked into having the PSE repaired? Just a thought. Good Luck!

MP-3 would be my choice in your position. Put in some Sophia Electra tube.

A couple of years ago I had a YS audio experience symphonies preamp. I retubed it with Sylvania 5751 triple mica black plate and was amazed at how it sounded. It had a fast, neutral, clean sound with just the right amount of tube warmth. Check the forums, it has been favorably compared to more expensive gear, including ARC. Price for the basic plus model is $633 plus shipping. 

G'day Robert,

If you are lucky enough to find a Vincent SA-T8 then this will give you what you are after. Massive step up over an AR SP-6 & AI L3. Fully balanced all tube design, has massive soundstage depth & width & oozes musicality in spades. Just has that "just right" midrange "warmth" and has none of the dry, etched, overly analytical presentation that plagues many Pre-Amps, which you are trying to avoid.

Replace the "crap" stock tubes with Psvane's and you will have a Pre that competes with or betters many Pre's costing multiples of it's cost.

Hope you can find one.

Thanks for your patience.  The L3 took a lot longer to arrive than expected.  It is an L3 dealer demo that went back to AI where it was essentially upgraded to an L3A and then sent to me.  

I love so much about the AR SP6b, particularly the bloomy midrange that works so well with my ProAc Response 2S speakers.  It especially shines with vocals and acoustic instruments.  It feels like the tubes are backed by an enormous reservoir of power that effortlessly pushes out warm notes that suspend in the air for just a moment before the next note.  I can listen to the thing all day long; it's really enjoyable.  What it is missing, however, is detail, particularly in the high end, and imaging.

The L3+ has that detail that the SP6b is missing, along with the imaging. The build quality is exceptional.  But it feels dry, flat, or maybe sterile, compared to the SP6b.  It's probably more accurate than the SP6b.  In the right system, which would probably be mega $$$, I might prefer that accuracy.  But in my system, it just doesn't move me.

So, how do i get the midrange bloomy sound of the SP6b with more detail and better imaging?  Folks on this thread mentioned above:

1. Mapletree Audio Design Ultra 4c 
2. a Don Sachs preamp--not sure which
3. Atma-sphere MP-3

Would one of those would fit the bill?  My budget is $2k (notice the creep from my original post.)  

The other alternative is to overhaul the SP6b--I suppose new wire and caps might brighten it up, although i don't know if that means more detail and better imaging.  Also, i'm not sure who could do it, and I'm not sure that i want to do violence to a vintage piece of equipment.

Please bear in mind that i've done some reading, and a little listening, since my original post, but i'm still very much new at this thing.  You're hearing my subjective listening experience.  Apologies in advance if i have maligned a piece of equipment that you hold dear.  Folks have been very generous with their time and advice which i really appreciate; some have been grumpy when i don't respond right away--please understand that life circumstances prevent me from being tethered 24/7.  Thanks so much for any thoughts.

Thanks for all the responses. I indeed purchased an AR SP6b.  The sound is wonderful.  I also purchased around the same time an AI L3 dealer demo directly from AI.  AI is upgrading the power supply and some internal caps so it will more or less be an L3A.  The unit still hasn't arrived.  I'll post my impressions after I receive the AI.

I think the OP already bought an AR SP6b. Just curious to hear how he likes it... This is of course if he ever returns back to post his impressions.

I have a Tube Pre-amp with Tube Power Supply for Sale an alternative choice would be the Atma-Sphere Gear which is world class in my opinion the amps and pre-amp will perform at a league not many can compete on.

Though I know your budget is $1.6K, I still recommend an Atma preamp.
I mentioned the UV-1, as it is pretty close to your budget. I have a MP-3.
If you could swing it, I assure you it would be your last preamp.
I suggest calling Ralph directly at Atma-Sphere. Sometimes he has demos or refurb equipment that he will sell at a major reduction (that was how I got my MA-1's and MP-3).
I promise you that Ralph's equipment will smoke just about everything out there.
Bob

Hi,
Silvaweld SWC 450 aka.Allnic a great little Preamp
plays in the Big League easy buy it second hand
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue17/soniceuphoria.htm

Best Regards,
Stephan

robert1234
You asked, and ended up exactly as I did, with AR. You went from last in the class, to first.  I've researched AR, and found the SP11/10/14/9/8/3/6 [in descending order], in their various Mk I/II/III/IV versions, to be the best preamps. Though most don't have it, I often look for a toroidal coil in preamps, in place of a transformer, just like select model toroidal CJ and other brands. Although I recently aquired a SP-9 Mk II with a toroidal coil, later I'll probably look for an 11/10 or an 8, and if you guessed, yes, because of more tubes. If you like, later we can talk about AR tube amps.. so nice when paired with AR preamps..
Kind regards,
Will

wolf_garcia et al
Recently I ordered a small "Fulla Shiit" USB DAC [yes, the name is "Fulla Shiit"], typically used in laptops. It works extremely well, by adding analogue to my music. At first listen on my JBL phones, the analogue sound was quite impressive, superlative, and I listened for hours. This Shiit uses only a volume control, and amplifies the sound quite a bit. Intended for headphones, though I use it also to go into the AR SP-9 Mk II preamp, for my AR/CJ/JBL system. The instructions are sparse. Tried it on my desktop, and later will try on my tablet and smart phone.

 Also I ordered another tube DAC, a "ZHILAI Audio D1" from China, which add's some noise, and isn't as good as the Shiit.  Both were under $100. You're right, now I really like Shiit products, very advanced in their use of internal DAC chips, and consistantly out pace others at many times the price..  sometimes Fulla_Shiit x 10...

[this is my first Audiogon post, as I like reading forums. I learned quite a bit about speakers, preamps and amps, by brand and model, mostly by comparing the components, as I've researched before purchasing]

Robert, my time with the SP-6b was a long time ago, it's tubes no longer in my memory. What the mode switch allows is for each channel to heard through both speakers, or both blended together to mono. I use it to switch between left and right channels when playing "electronically simulated stereo" LP's, such as the early Kinks and Beach Boys albums, to compare them to each other.

If you are putting your PSE out to pasture, are you willing to sell me the remote?  In the alternative, would you be willing to loan it to me by mail so I could use it to teach my Harmony the codes? I promise I would return it and could arrange a deposit or something like that through PayPal if it would make you more comfortable. 

Sorry dryanlocker, I don't have a manual. I just looked at the remote and don't see any writing that would indicate codes.

Robert, do you have the remote and manual for your HL1?  I bought one recently and mine came with neither. Mine works fine, but I cannot find remote codes for it. Would you be willing to share the manual with me by email?  Also, do you have a way to get the remote codes off of the remote?

Good…I'll wait for you to get your Shiit together.

I have a Decware CPS3 pre-amp and bought some Mullard input and output tubes from Brent Jessie  and a new Mullard rectifier tube and I love it.  I find the ability to change the gain on the input and output tubes lets me find the sweet spot better depending on the source and quality and dynamics of the recording and use the volume control wide open.  In hindsight I should have bought the Decware ZTpre with the balanced inputs and outputs for my DACs.
I have a Schiit Freya on order for the balanced output to my amplifier and to receive and attenuate the balanced input from my DAC's.  

Hi from France,
with the new model classic preamp of Nagra, you could consider the Nagra Jazz preamp, many for sale on second hand.
Best.
JLouis.

I want more people to buy the Shiit Freya so I can read more reviews of the damn thing as it simply seems cool for its price (el cheapo extremo), and the 3 operating modes look like a great idea…balanced and single ended ins and outs, tubes sticking out of the top (you want that, it's important)…hmm...I may have to get one just to calm myself down.

You can never go wrong with Atma-sphere MP-3. If your budget allows, go for MP-1.

I am a lover of 6SN7-based preamps and Don Sachs' preamp is right in your price range.  I vastly prefer it over the Modwright  LS100 and it is half the price. Google Don Sachs Consulting for his website and see this forum for my reviews, as well those of other delighted owners of Don's preamp. It is the end of my 45 year journey for audio pleasure at an affordable price.  Good luck!  Whitestix 

+1 on the NOS Slvania 6SN7's.

+1 Mapletree Audio!

If you can live with a preamp new under a grand that doesn't have tons of bling,look at Mapletree Audio Design Ultra 4c with new old stock12SN7's and built-in phone stage  . No printed circuit boards .Great reviews .

Bdp24, do you like to Telefunkens better than the Phillips Jan 5751 that it comes with?  Also, what is the benefit of the mode switch?  I figured you'd set it to stereo and forget it?

Way to go Robert! The SP-6b is not only a fine pre-amp, it also has a mode switch! The pre uses 12AX7's, so look into getting some NOS Telefunkens to put in it.

Thank you, bdp24! I got the AR SP-6b.  Looking forward to listening to it.  Thank you to everyone who responded.  What a great community!

An Audio Research SP-6b was just listed here on AudiogoN today, and has just been overhauled. It has the classic ARC tube sound, and contains a phono section. It's priced below $1000, so act quickly!

Thanks, jond.  I'll check those two out.  I'm definitely looking for a used piece to get the biggest bang for the buck.